Shocking things everyone should know about Luther

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I think it is important that we know as much as we can about a persons character before we make judgements about whether he is fit to lead and preach. Many people for example do not realise that Luther (at least towards the end of his life) was shockingly ant-semitic. In his book “On the Jews and their Lies” Luther (1540s) makes some disgusting ascertations. Luther suggests that the German people should:
  1. set fire to synagogues and schools
  2. burn houses
  3. confiscate all Jewish religious writings
    4)forbid Rabbis from teaching
    5)make the Jews slaves of germans
I personally find the above remarks outrageous and could never imagine that a person who could espouse them could be permitted to preach let alone help forumlate theology.
Perhaps you should read about the actions and despicable things that your church did during the inquisitions, WW II and post WW II and then maybe (but I really don’t think so) you may find it in your heart to set your mind in the true perspective.
 
Perhaps you should read about the actions and despicable things that your church did during the inquisitions, WW II and post WW II and then maybe (but I really don’t think so) you may find it in your heart to set your mind in the true perspective.
Lets say you were back in the time of Jesus and watching the story of him unfold. Then you hear that Peter in aan act of barbarism cuts off the ear of a servant. He did this thinking he was doing the right thing but clearly he wasn`t. So if you were looking on would you now say that Christ teachings ere wrong because some of his followers acted incorrectly?

In my mind i separate the theology from the people who supposedly practice it. I know for sure that the history of the Catholic church is littered with horrendous acts of barbarity committed by people who thought they were doing things in the name of Christ and his Church. They were wrong - they were men - they were fallible and unfortunately lots more will happen in the future.
 
Yes, to be sure there are some Catholics who are anti-semitic. But in all fairness, the Catholic Church in modern times has fought against anti-semitism.

In WWII, many priests and nuns were sent to concentration camps for helping Jews – they were considered “Jewish sympathizers”.

In fact, Pope John XXIII helped Jews during WWII and even the current pope said Pius XII “spared no effot” to save Jews.

Many thousands of Roman Jews were saved during WWII because the Vatican ran an underground railroad which got Jews out of Italy. Rome’s chief Rabbi, Israel Zolli, converted to Catholicism at the end of WWII because he was so impressed with the Pope’s concern and help of the persecuted Jews.

Peace,

Jean
Zolli’s conversion had nothing to do with his friendship and collaboration with Pius XII. You should read “Honey from the Rock” - his conversion was amazing. He had a vision of Jesus in the Synagogue and so did his wife and daughter - at the same time.🙂
 
Perhaps you should read about the actions and despicable things that your church did during the inquisitions, WW II and post WW II and then maybe (but I really don’t think so) you may find it in your heart to set your mind in the true perspective.
Perhaps you should scertain the truth about the inquisition and WWII before you make these assumptions.

:eek:
 
First of all, Luther did not think that Catholicism needed to be reformed because of moral corruption. He thought it needed to be reformed because it had gotten the Gospel wrong. And secondly, obviously Luther didn’t think that his views on Jews were wicked. So no inconsistency. The inconsistency would lie in those Protestants who would claim that Catholicism was intolerably bad while Luther and his followers were pure and holy. When you find such Protestants, please smite them (metaphorically and rhetorically) with my blessing. Shucks, let me know and I’ll join in.

But this is not a general argument against Protestantism. To discredit Protestantism, you have to show more than that Luther was as bad in certain regards as many of his Catholic contemporaries. You have to show that the specific doctrines you condemn us for holding are wrong, and that the specific practices we would have to give up in order to become Catholic are incompatible with the Gospel. Bashing people who lived 500 years ago is a fun diversion, but it doesn’t help resolve the real issues.

When you find someone saying “this must be true because Luther said it,” then by all means question this.

I don’t. I hold traditional Catholicism–and more broadly traditional cultural Christianity–responsible. My point was that Williamson is a holdover who voices (with perhaps a bit more bitterness and anger precisely because there aren’t many who agree with him any ore) things that would have been fairly common opinions among Catholic clergy about 100 years ago–maybe even 50 years ago. Not universal, mind you; not necessarily official. But common.

So I repeat: those who live in glass houses (i.e., a Catholic tradition characterized by bitter hostility toward and persecution of Jews) shouldn’t throw stones at Luther.

Edwin
By their fruits you shall know them, isn’t that correct Edwin? Luther who sees himself has some prophet of God had this to say about himself and his doctrines:

“When I am angry, I am not expressing my own wrath, but the wrath of God”. Luther knew that he was superior to any man or saint. “St. Augustine or St. Ambrosius cannot be compared with me.” “They shall respect our teaching which is the word of God, spoken by the Holy Ghost, through our lips”. “Not for a thousand years has God bestowed such great gifts on any bishop as He as on me” (E61, 422). “God has appointed me for the whole German land, and I boldly vouch and declare that when you obey me you are without a doubt obeying not me but Christ” (W15, 27). “Whoever obeys me not, despises not me but Christ.” “I believe that we are the last trump that sounds before Christ is coming”. “What I teach and write remains true even though the whole world should fall to pieces over it.” (W18, 401). “Whoever rejects my doctrine cannot be saved.” “Nobody should rise up against me”.

In the references given, E refers to the Erlangen edition of Luther’s works, W to the Weimar edition. The first figure indicates the volume, the second the page.

He thought pretty highly of himself did our Luther, I have to wonder, that has a prophet of God shouldn’t he exude humbleness and/or holiness, say like the apostles/disciples after Pentecost.

Because he was a man far from being holy (did and said many a thing vile and nasty), such a man likewise, may not have been led by the Holy Spirit when interpreting the Word of God.

“The evangelical Reformation of the sixteenth century is unthinkable without Luther. It owed its origin directly to him and it bears the stamp of his personality.” “No German has ever influenced so powerfully as Luther the religious life, and through it, the whole history of his people; none has ever reflected so faithfully, in his whole personal character and conduct, the peculiar features of that life and history.” “Lutheranism is not a system worked out by Luther; it is the overflow of Luther’s individuality. . . . It is that which explains the `reformer’s’ immense influence.”

I would question a system of beliefs based on such a man as he.

I will end with these words taken from a volume written by Peter Weiner on Martin Luther(who wrote German with Tears and German for the Scientist):

"It is curious to notice how Luther’s biographers, or rather his apologists, treat this dark episode. Few are so hypocritical as the Lutheran pastor referred to above to make out Luther as a Jew-loving Christian. Most of them ignore his antisemitism completely. Only a very few are honest enough to admit that Luther’s behaviour is unparalleled among people who call themselves Christian. Professor MacKinnon in his great work—usually so full of admiration for Luther—frankly admits that in his antisemitic writings “vitriolic fury boils over in this wild polemic.” But then comes a sentence so typical of the way Luther is portrayed by English scholars: “It is difficult to believe that he (Luther) soberly contemplated the literal application of such monstrous proposals.”

Why? One would like to ask Professor MacKinnon. He does not say so. Why make allowances and mental reservations for a man who said repeatedly “I am not cruel enough,” who could in cold blood watch and command that hundreds of thousands of his opponents—papists, peasants, Anabaptists, and Jews should be and were slaughtered tortured, and otherwise persecuted. Why on earth is this difficult to believe? Merely in order to maintain a myth, a legend?"
 
I think it is important that we know as much as we can about a persons character before we make judgements about whether he is fit to lead and preach. Many people for example do not realise that Luther (at least towards the end of his life) was shockingly ant-semitic. In his book “On the Jews and their Lies” Luther (1540s) makes some disgusting ascertations. Luther suggests that the German people should:
  1. set fire to synagogues and schools
  2. burn houses
  3. confiscate all Jewish religious writings
    4)forbid Rabbis from teaching
    5)make the Jews slaves of germans
I personally find the above remarks outrageous and could never imagine that a person who could espouse them could be permitted to preach let alone help forumlate theology.
http://www.oh-snap.org/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/BeatDeadHorse.gif

Nothing new under the sun. Everyone knows that Luther during the end of his life became virulently anti-semitic. He was, after all, part of a culture where anti-semtism was not only known, but almost the norm. Please don’t make me tell you WHERE this anti-semitic sentiment came from?

Of course the remarks are outrageous, and I challenge you to find any Lutheran that supports them! You might find quite a bit of nazis who try to use them as propaganda-tools, but I challenge you to find ONE SINGLE confessional Lutheran who supports them. I’m betting you can’t.
"I think it is important that we know as much as we can about a persons character before we make judgements about whether he is fit to lead and preach.
You don’t want to go down this road my friend. You really don’t, because I can play this card just as well as you can…maybe better.
 
Yes, to be sure there are some Catholics who are anti-semitic. But in all fairness, the Catholic Church in modern times has fought against anti-semitism.
Bolding and underlining mine…

Please note that part though. “MODERN times”. Lutherans in “modern times” have also done great services to the Jewish people. The Lutheran “Danish Mission to Israel” was a key figure in saving the Danish Jews during WW2, just as several Lutheran pastors actively helped Jews, and continues to aid Jews today by sending young people as volunteers to social institutions, nursing homes, hospitals, etc, in Israel
(and no - missionary work is NOT, NOT, NOT part of those stays in any way!!!)

I’m sure Lutherans from other countries can tell similar stories…
 
I always wonder why some catholics are quick to point out the anti-semitism of Luther but apparently overlook the anti-semitism of those in their own fold.
Well for one christ gave us the catholic church and was established by Peter the apsotel, so we really cannot say much about them but the protestant beliefe was was made, given, and established bya lost monk named Luther! You will find as my jewish friends themsleves agree that jews respect and get along much more with the catholics than they ever would protestants.
 
Well for one christ gave us the catholic church and was established by Peter the apsotel, so we really cannot say much about them but the protestant beliefe was was made, given, and established bya lost monk named Luther!
Oh yeah. The good old “Well…that’s different!!”-argument…:rolleyes:
 
http://www.oh-snap.org/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/BeatDeadHorse.gif

Nothing new under the sun. Everyone knows that Luther during the end of his life became virulently anti-semitic. He was, after all, part of a culture where anti-semtism was not only known, but almost the norm. Please don’t make me tell you WHERE this anti-semitic sentiment came from?

Of course the remarks are outrageous, and I challenge you to find any Lutheran that supports them! You might find quite a bit of nazis who try to use them as propaganda-tools, but I challenge you to find ONE SINGLE confessional Lutheran who supports them. I’m betting you can’t.

You don’t want to go down this road my friend. You really don’t, because I can play this card just as well as you can…maybe better.
As a past protestant who went to Liberty University to become a pastor, I found my way to the catholic church. After learning the languages of the original texts, the history of the times of the bible, and the fathers of the church I was amazed to find that protestant interpretation was far from actual meaning. If I where to tell you to stay cool, would you know what I meant? this is a bad comparison but you should get the point! The poeple of the church is not perfect but the church itself is! You use the Bible against Catholics even though it was catholics who wrote the Bible! even Luther says we have the catholic church to thank for that himself! If you really want to play high and mighty than you can do it with me! Let us debate these matters of biblical opinions, but since english is so far off from the original languages, lets debate in hebrew, greek, or latin! I will let you choose which one! I will also pray for you! God Bless!
 
As a past protestant who went to Liberty University to become a pastor, I found my way to the catholic church. After learning the languages of the original texts, the history of the times of the bible, and the fathers of the church I was amazed to find that protestant interpretation was far from actual meaning. If I where to tell you to stay cool, would you know what I meant? this is a bad comparison but you should get the point! The poeple of the church is not perfect but the church itself is! You use the Bible against Catholics even though it was catholics who wrote the Bible! even Luther says we have the catholic church to thank for that himself! If you really want to play high and mighty than you can do it with me! Let us debate these matters of biblical opinions, but since english is so far off from the original languages, lets debate in hebrew, greek, or latin! I will let you choose which one! I will also pray for you! God Bless!
Funny, actually. I too have learned the original languages (fourth semester student - still taking Hebrew classes), and I have become LESS convinced that the RC church is right in the crucial issues that seperate it from the rest of Christendom because of it.

That the RC church itself should be perfect is a matter of faith, and not one that is supported by Scripture. Unless, of course, one regards the “the gates of Hell will not…”-passage as being about the RC church, but to say that, one must believe that the RC church is the Church that Christ established, which is also a matter of faith. And the whole “The Bible was written by RCs”-reasoning is dependant on this…

I’ve heard RCs use reasoning akin to “The RC church is perfect because the gates of Hell cannot prevail against it, and the reason that passage in Matt is about the RC church is because the RC church says so”, which is of course circular reasoning. I expect better from a fellow theologian, and look forward to what you have to say on this, and other, subjects.

I am not the one playing high and mighty in this thread, actually. And I’m not intimidated by the “take it up with me!”-roar. Bring it on!

Might I suggest, though, moving this discussion to PMs where the vulgus indoctum can’t derail it?
 
Bolding and underlining mine…

Please note that part though. “MODERN times”. Lutherans in “modern times” have also done great services to the Jewish people. The Lutheran “Danish Mission to Israel” was a key figure in saving the Danish Jews during WW2, just as several Lutheran pastors actively helped Jews, and continues to aid Jews today by sending young people as volunteers to social institutions, nursing homes, hospitals, etc, in Israel
(and no - missionary work is NOT, NOT, NOT part of those stays in any way!!!)

I’m sure Lutherans from other countries can tell similar stories…
You may want to read “The Myth of Hitler’s Pope” by Rabbi Dalin, he speaks of many Popes (although focuses primarily on Pius XII) both modern and old who helped in many ways to protect Jews. In fact, if you google the title, you’ll get a portion of the book online. It is worth reading.
 
Funny, actually. I too have learned the original languages (fourth semester student - still taking Hebrew classes), and I have become LESS convinced that the RC church is right in the crucial issues that seperate it from the rest of Christendom because of it.

That the RC church itself should be perfect is a matter of faith, and not one that is supported by Scripture. Unless, of course, one regards the “the gates of Hell will not…”-passage as being about the RC church, but to say that, one must believe that the RC church is the Church that Christ established, which is also a matter of faith. And the whole “The Bible was written by RCs”-reasoning is dependant on this…

I’ve heard RCs use reasoning akin to “The RC church is perfect because the gates of Hell cannot prevail against it, and the reason that passage in Matt is about the RC church is because the RC church says so”, which is of course circular reasoning. I expect better from a fellow theologian, and look forward to what you have to say on this, and other, subjects.

I am not the one playing high and mighty in this thread, actually. And I’m not intimidated by the “take it up with me!”-roar. Bring it on!

Might I suggest, though, moving this discussion to PMs where the vulgus indoctum can’t derail it?
Actually it’s a matter of history as well as faith.

By the way what was the name given to the Church that Christ established, and what was it refered to by others of that time who were not Christians.

Here’s one of many hints:

“All heretics wish to be styled Catholic, yet if anyone asks them where is the Catholic place of worship none would venture to point out his own.”

– Augustine of Hippo, convert, bishop, theologian, Doctor of the Church; using the early Christian consensus on the name of the Catholic Church to show how even heretics know the true church.
 
In modern times, ladies and gentlemen, neither the vast majority of Lutherans nor the vast majority of Catholics are anti-semitic. The OP’s thread has done exactly its seeming intent: to throw red meat at all of us to see who will fight. The historic skeletons of anti-semitism are not in either Lutheran or Catholic closets: they are in the open. It is not systemic of either communion’s theology or belief, and in fact is rejected by both.
On the subject of bigotry of any type, we agree.

Jon
 
Actually it’s a matter of history as well as faith.
And THAT very statement is a matter of faith - not history…
By the way what was the name given to the Church that Christ established, and what was it refered to by others of that time who were not Christians.

Here’s one of many hints:

“All heretics wish to be styled Catholic, yet if anyone asks them where is the Catholic place of worship none would venture to point out his own.”
:rolleyes:
Another example of how some RCs think their opponents are too dumb to spot circular reasoning. Your argument basically goes something like this:
“Augustine was writing about the RC church, because the RC church says so, and the RC church says so, because Augustine was writing about it!”

Not only circular reasoning, but utter foolishness, and I refuse to waste another moment of my time on it…
However, two question for you to ponder:
1: Who were Augustine writing against, and what were their views?
2: What is the meaning of the word “katholikos”?
Or is that “irrelevant”? :rolleyes:

That post is a very good illustration of why I find it impossible to have a factual discussion in plenum. Someone invariably comes along and tries to derail it…
 
http://www.oh-snap.org/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/BeatDeadHorse.gif

Nothing new under the sun. Everyone knows that Luther during the end of his life became virulently anti-semitic. He was, after all, part of a culture where anti-semtism was not only known, but almost the norm. Please don’t make me tell you WHERE this anti-semitic sentiment came from?

Of course the remarks are outrageous, and I challenge you to find any Lutheran that supports them! You might find quite a bit of nazis who try to use them as propaganda-tools, but I challenge you to find ONE SINGLE confessional Lutheran who supports them. I’m betting you can’t.

You don’t want to go down this road my friend. You really don’t, because I can play this card just as well as you can…maybe better.
Please, don’t make me TELL you WHERE anti-catholic sentiment came from?

I mean the man who pretty much developed lutheran doctrines was virulently anti-semitic and virulently anti-catholic.
 
In modern times, ladies and gentlemen, neither the vast majority of Lutherans nor the vast majority of Catholics are anti-semitic. The OP’s thread has done exactly its seeming intent: to throw red meat at all of us to see who will fight. The historic skeletons of anti-semitism are not in either Lutheran or Catholic closets: they are in the open. It is not systemic of either communion’s theology or belief, and in fact is rejected by both.
On the subject of bigotry of any type, we agree.

Jon
Jon, I speak only of Luther, not Lutherans. Please, don’t take this to mean I have anything against your church/denomination, I do however have a bone to pick with Luther (as I do with Henry VIII).
 
And THAT very statement is a matter of faith - not history…

:rolleyes:
Another example of how some RCs think their opponents are too dumb to spot circular reasoning. Your argument basically goes something like this:
“Augustine was writing about the RC church, because the RC church says so, and the RC church says so, because Augustine was writing about it!”

Not only circular reasoning, but utter foolishness, and I refuse to waste another moment of my time on it…
However, two question for you to ponder:
1: Who were Augustine writing against, and what were their views?
2: What is the meaning of the word “katholikos”?
Or is that “irrelevant”? :rolleyes:

That post is a very good illustration of why I find it impossible to have a factual discussion in plenum. Someone invariably comes along and tries to derail it…
You answered none of my questions (I’ll respond to your questions when you respond to mine) and when you did reply you offered a trite response.

What was the name of the Church Christ established, and how did others (non-christians) describe it, i.e., what was it refered to has.
 
Please, don’t make me TELL you WHERE anti-catholicism sentiment came from?
Nice try to get around my point…ain’t gonna fly, though!
Tempers were high during the Reformation - on both sides. And things were said, on both sides, that had been better left unsaid. If I suscribed to Luther’s “The pope is the Antichrist”-idea, I would not be inhere!
I mean the man who pretty much developed lutheran doctrines was virulently anti-semitic and virulently anti-catholic.
1: Actually, a lot of “Lutheran doctrines” was penned by Melanchton, although Luther gave his imprimatur.
Not to mention the fact that the Book of Concord, which established Lutheran orthodoxy, wasn’t produced until decades after Luther.

2: I am not denying that the old Luther was virulently anti-semitic. In fact, I think it was I who first used that very word (virulently) in this specific thread? What I’m saying is, that he didn’t catch this sentiment out of nowhere. He was a child of his time, and of the RC church.
As for “virulently anti-catholic”, there are two things to say:

1: As far as I know, Luther continued to call himself “catholic” until his death. He just didn’t subscribe to the idea that the Church Catholic was identical to that branch of it which was governed by the Bishop of Rome.

2: THAT sentiment did not come out of nowhere, either. It was the result of a process - in which both sides made mistakes.
 
Quite a few Saints and Popes warned us about the Synagogue of Satan.
 
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