Shocking things everyone should know about Luther

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That being said … I would never say Luther was perfect, but of course neither is Rome

Summing up, if I’m reading TetriumQuid and Orange Man correctly, then there is no Christian faith (Protestant or Catholic) that is perfectly correct on doctrine, faith and morals. It’s almost as if you’re proclaiming the Church started by Christ (whatever you think it is) for 2000 years has at times (if ever) gotten wrong Christ’s teachings. As if the Holy Spirit has never been involved in any Christian Church.

Calvin had sound theology???:confused: He taught that the Eucharist is only a symbol is sound theology?? C’MON!!! ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!!

And my question on where did Luther (or Calvin, or Zwingli, or Joel Osteen, etc. etc.) get their authority to start a church in Christ’s name never gets answered.

It’s a simple question, with a simple answer. Where did the founder of the Catholic Church (Peter) get his authority to start a Church in Christ’s name? From Jesus Christ.

From whom did Luther (or any Protestant group) get its authority to start a church?______________ (place answer here.)
The answer is obvious. I’ve stated it, and they haven’t denied that I got it right.

So I’ll be bold and say that they question has been answered.

From whom did Luther (or any Protestant group) get its authority to start a church? Themselves. They decided it in their own flawed minds (flawed in the sense that no man has perfect insight/knowledge/faith/pure thoughts/love).(place answer here.)/
 
My bad, apologies, I need another cup of coffee before I fully wake up!..Zwingli was purely symbolic in his teachings on the Eucharist, Calvin landed somewhere between Luther and Zwingli’s teachings. Mt point being, why, after 1500 years, would they decide to be diametrically opposite from the 1500 year teaching of the Eucharist? As in john 6, it is a “hard” saying. Are they not then like the disciples in John 6:66 that decided to stop following Christ because to eat His flesh and drink His Blood was too “hard” to believe?

And if someone (whether Catholic or Protestant) thinks the Eucharist is only a symbol, aren’t they turning away from Christ as in John 6:66? I have to conclude yes.

As a Catholic, I once did find the Teaching of the Eucharist “hard”. But I decided to believe the teaching first with faith (as Peter does in John 6), and dedicate much time, study and prayer in to why it is truly Christ’s Body and Blood. And the more I studied, the more the beauty of the teaching came out…the more I wanted to receive Christ’s Body and Blood in the Eucharist. And the graces from this started to flow…

I would highly recommend to anyone NOT to go half way and believe that the eucharist is only symbolic. Believe and have faith first like Peter did, then dedicate much time to prayer/study in to the Mystery…you will see.

The Catholic Church does have its human sins and faillings over the last 2000 years.It is run by men, who fail (the selling of indulgences, for example). But because the Catholic Church has the body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jeus, I could never, never leave the Catholic Church.

Maybe if Luther, Zwingli, etc. had a stronger faith in the Eucharist, they would have stayed in the Catholic Church and fought to change these sins. And because of a strong belief in the Eucharist they would have never, never thought of leaving the Church.
Regarding the Eucharist - Our belief is based on Faith and not Proof!

I copy a paragraph from a poster on another thread which I found very moving
I will relate one of the things that kind of sealed the deal for me in my desire to convert since it relates to one of your reasons. The short version is I ran the Alpha course at our lutheran church and we were on the weekend retreat and happened to book it at a Catholic retreat house. After we had settled into our rooms me and a friend were looking around the facilities as it was very bueatiful and we wanted to see what all was there. We eventually came to these two doors and we opened them and just as soon as we had opened them we were overwhelmed by the presence of God. I mean I was going to my knees it was so overwhelming. We had no idea what we had walked into but I saw people on both knees praying before the altar very reverently so deep in prayer they didnt even turn to us as we came in. My eyes were also drawn to the altar as God seemed to be there but I didnt know how. I saw what I know now is called Monstrance but just thought it was a pretty decoration at the time. We left so as not to be rude but as we closed the door behind us I asked my friend if she felt that. She said how overwhelming it all was and we wondered what we had walked in on. It turns out it was what is known as Eucharistic adoration. That experience of God in the Eucharist never left me and I eventually found where there was an adoration chapel in my city and started praying there in our Lords presence every week a practice I maintain till this day and by Gods grace til the day I die.

We can never claim to understand the Eucharist. But who can claim to understand the Trinity, the Resurrection, the miracles of the fishes and the loaves, Jesus walking on water etc. We believe because we have Faith and trust in God!

🙂
 
““In our Latin Bible, ‘repent’ has come to mean ‘to do penance.’ But in the original Greek it means ‘to change one’s mind’ — and that is what Jesus meant. Jesus didn’t ask for penance… works, deeds or rituals… he asks for a simple change of heart. Salvation is not earned by pilgrimages to Rome, veneration of relics, or Masses attended. We need only Jesus Christ. Jesus paid for our sins. Salvation is a gift from God.” - Matin Luther”

And here Luther is wrong. Many at the time, as now, may skip over the “truly sorry” part of confession. But repent has always meant to turn away from sin and to be truly sorry (repentant) about the sins we’re guilty of.

But is feeling guilty enough? He says that all we need to is “change one’s mind”, to understand that what we did is truly sinful.

It is not enough. That is the repentance part of confession. We also must firmly resolve to live differently. We also must make restitution to the best of our ability. And there is penalty for sin.

Is a simple change of heart enough? I think the Luther must have had a very heavy heart and wished that “changing his mind” was enough. I believe that he must have needed it to be enough. He must have had a tremendous fear of what was to come.

Of course someone who doesn’t believe in the Churh will say that going attending Mass doesn’t count. 😉

He says that all we need is a change of heart, to realize that our sins are sins. And yet he continues to speak with venom. To be an anti-semite. To be cruel, in fact.

Does he show any signs that “changing his miind” about how we’re supposed to “change our minds” to be saved was working for him?

Salvation is a gift from God, and God tells us that we must keep his commandments if we will be saved. Going to church is one of those commandments.

Jesus redeemed everyone. He didn’t guarantee salvation to everyone–we must keep his commandments. So what happens if you don’t?

He made some valid points, but again went much too far.

Being a miserable human being while attending Mass compusively isn’t what it’s about.

But I think we can all agree that being a miserable human being and deciding to change doctrine and the Bible aren’t what it’s about. In fact it’s worse.

Luther condemns those who sin and believe that they can buy their way into Heaven with indulgences, yet he is a miserable a person (probably worse than most) and goes on to deny the Church that Jesus founded.

Did this guy ever look at himself?

Indulgences without conscience. I can’t believe that the average person sinned without conscience, believing that all he had to do was pay his way out of purgatory. I believe that most people didn’t have the money to sin very often if that is what was truly believed.

There were probably some vulnerable people who believed such nonsense. I’m thinking that it was probably the rich who really went for this kind of thing.

You know, the kind who buy off-sets today. Their fuel-guzzling homes, cars, and planes don’t count, because they buy off-sets.

It’s preposterous, but it eases a guilty conscience, I suppose.
 
Regarding the Eucharist - Our belief is based on Faith and not Proof!

I copy a paragraph from a poster on another thread which I found very moving
I will relate one of the things that kind of sealed the deal for me in my desire to convert since it relates to one of your reasons. The short version is I ran the Alpha course at our lutheran church and we were on the weekend retreat and happened to book it at a Catholic retreat house. After we had settled into our rooms me and a friend were looking around the facilities as it was very bueatiful and we wanted to see what all was there. We eventually came to these two doors and we opened them and just as soon as we had opened them we were overwhelmed by the presence of God. I mean I was going to my knees it was so overwhelming. We had no idea what we had walked into but I saw people on both knees praying before the altar very reverently so deep in prayer they didnt even turn to us as we came in. My eyes were also drawn to the altar as God seemed to be there but I didnt know how. I saw what I know now is called Monstrance but just thought it was a pretty decoration at the time. We left so as not to be rude but as we closed the door behind us I asked my friend if she felt that. She said how overwhelming it all was and we wondered what we had walked in on. It turns out it was what is known as Eucharistic adoration. That experience of God in the Eucharist never left me and I eventually found where there was an adoration chapel in my city and started praying there in our Lords presence every week a practice I maintain till this day and by Gods grace til the day I die.

We can never claim to understand the Eucharist. But who can claim to understand the Trinity, the Resurrection, the miracles of the fishes and the loaves, Jesus walking on water etc. We believe because we have Faith and trust in God!

🙂
Beautiful, Cinette!!! So true!

We can’t have “vertical blindness”. We have to look “horizontally” to Christ, and this is what Christ asks of us in the Eucharist. The Eucharist is a piece of Heaven, the infinite. We are finite beings with finite minds. Christ loved us so much, that He knew we would need Him till the “end of time.” He left Himself in the Eucharist. As parents, we truly love our children. Would we not make ourselves totally accesible to them whenever they needed us? We would never abandon them. This is how our Heavenly Father loves us, but infinitely more. He would never leave us. “The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.”

Think of the Last Supper. Christ knew in a few hours that He would be dragged away, tortured, and Crucified. So everthing He did and said had great importance to the 12 men whom He was leaving His Church in their hands. In John 6 He had set up what He was going to do that Thursday night. Imagine Christ looking deep in to each Apostle’s eyes and said “This is My Body!” He wanted to be very clear on this. These final hours were of extreme importance. At that point, knowing in 24 hours He would be dead, why would He speak symbolically? What benefit would it be? And if Christ was speaking symbolically, the Gospels would have somehow mentioned or attested to this. But they don’t.

Believe first with faith (as I mentioned before, as Peter did) that the Eucharist is Truly His Body and Blood, Then study, pray and learn. Read the early Church Fathers on this. Read Catholic books on the Eucharist. Catholic Answers alone is a great resource for this. Sit in front of the Eucharist and talk to Jesus. But don’t walk away…
 
Luther, however, made changes without authority and without the protection of infallibility.
Q. What was the main thing Luther set out to do?
A. End the immoral selling of indulgences sanctioned by the Pope.

Facts:
Pope Leo X fell into grave sin while being assumed infallible.
Luther succeeded to stop the sinful abuses while being considered fallible.
He shouldn’t have made the changes he did, and that he did not speak infallibly means that no one can know that the doctrines he promoted are correct.
The Catholic Church admits Luther was right about the selling of indulgences despite being a fallible human being!

Ginger
 
Ginger2, you misunderstand the doctrine of infallibility. It does NOT mean the Pope is an infallible human being, merely that when he declares that he is teaching ex cathedra on an issue of faith or morals, the teaching point is infafllible. This point has been made over and over and over. Beacasue a Pope sins personally does not make his ex cathedra teachings wrong. I don’t think anyone can come up with evidence that the Pope ever taught selling indulgences was ok while speaking or writing ex cathedra. I’ll certainly say Luther brought a spotlight on a wrong that was going on. He did not need to do what he did to accomplish that.**
 
Q. What was the main thing Luther set out to do?
A. End the immoral selling of indulgences sanctioned by the Pope.

Facts:
Pope Leo X fell into grave sin while being assumed infallible.
Luther succeeded to stop the sinful abuses while being considered fallible.

The Catholic Church admits Luther was right about the selling of indulgences despite being a fallible human being!

Ginger
That Luther wanted only (at first) to end abuses in the Church isn’t disputed. However, he went far beyond talking about indulgences. He changed doctrine and the Bible.

I think that you don’t know what papal infallibility is. You assume, I think, that papal infallibility means that the Pope is impeccable. Not true.

Of course the CC admits that Luther was right. And it admits that Popes are fallible human beings as well.

If you want, I can post a statement on what papal infallibility is.
 
Of course neither are you perfect (in mind, body and soul), which begs the question how do you know you are right?
I can’t answer for orange_man, but I think this is a valid question that everyone should consider.

I have made a choice to depend entirely on God, in faith, believing that even if I make a mistake God is in control. “And we know that for those who love God, that is, for those who are called according to his purpose, all things are working together for good.” - Romans 8:28

I pray and ask God to show me the way, to keep me from being deceived and have made up my mind to accept whatever God tells me - even if it’s something I would not choose for myself. “Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding.” - Proverbs 3:5

I pray for God to keep me strong when things seem to being going in thew wrong, so that I don’t try to take control. I pray God’s Will, not mine. I pray that I serve the One and Only God; The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. I pray that God keep me because I know I am weak and admit I cannot do it on my own. I pray that God help me even to believe. And I know because,
“That is why I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it and it will be yours.” - Mark 11:24

I know and believe God always keeps His promises.

Ginger
 
I can’t answer for orange_man, but I think this is a valid question that everyone should consider.

I have made a choice to depend entirely on God, in faith, believing that even if I make a mistake God is in control. “And we know that for those who love God, that is, for those who are called according to his purpose, all things are working together for good.” - Romans 8:28

I pray and ask God to show me the way, to keep me from being deceived and have made up my mind to accept whatever God tells me - even if it’s something I would not choose for myself. “Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding.” - Proverbs 3:5

I pray for God to keep me strong when things seem to being going in thew wrong, so that I don’t try to take control. I pray God’s Will, not mine. I pray that I serve the One and Only God; The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. I pray that God keep me because I know I am weak and admit I cannot do it on my own. I pray that God help me even to believe. And I know because,
“That is why I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it and it will be yours.” - Mark 11:24

I know and believe God always keeps His promises.

Ginger
And yet Luther, relying on his own understanding, changed doctrine and the Bible.

Why, if you understand that you shouldn’t rely on your own understanding, should anyone follow Luther?
 
Ginger2, you misunderstand the doctrine of infallibility. It does NOT mean the Pope is an infallible human being, merely that when he declares that he is teaching ex cathedra on an issue of faith or morals, the teaching point is infafllible. This point has been made over and over and over. Beacasue a Pope sins personally does not make his ex cathedra teachings wrong. I don’t think anyone can come up with evidence that the Pope ever taught selling indulgences was ok while speaking or writing ex cathedra. I’ll certainly say Luther brought a spotlight on a wrong that was going on. He did not need to do what he did to accomplish that.**

No I have not misunderstood. I realize Catholics have a loophole, “as long as it is not declared ‘ex-cathedral’”, technically popes can teach anything they like that is not in direct conflict with RC dogmas.

Look what happened because of this infallibility doctrine: The Pope endorsed the selling of indulgences and people believed him - even tho it may not have been an ex-cathedral teaching.

The consequences were Catholics believing a false doctrine! Those who died before the Church corrected this error went to their graves believing they were guaranteed to go straight to heaven, some without ever repenting.

Ginger
 
I think it is important that we know as much as we can about a persons character before we make judgements about whether he is fit to lead and preach. Many people for example do not realise that Luther (at least towards the end of his life) was shockingly ant-semitic. In his book “On the Jews and their Lies” Luther (1540s) makes some disgusting ascertations. Luther suggests that the German people should:
  1. set fire to synagogues and schools
  2. burn houses
  3. confiscate all Jewish religious writings
    4)forbid Rabbis from teaching
    5)make the Jews slaves of germans
I personally find the above remarks outrageous and could never imagine that a person who could espouse them could be permitted to preach let alone help forumlate theology.
I’m a saved by faith in my Lord Jesus Christ and Luther or any other man didn’t give me that faith, but the Holy Spirit did.
I dont know much about Luther, what kind of a man he was, but I know about Christ and that is the most important thing we can ever know.
 
No I don’t. I realize Catholics have a loophole, “as long as it is not declared ‘ex-cathedral’”, technically popes can teach anything they like that is not in direct conflict with RC dogmas.

Look what happened because of this infallibility doctrine: The Pope endorsed the selling of indulgences and people believed him - even tho it may not have been an ex-cathedral teaching.

The consequences were Catholics believing a false doctrine! Those who died before the Church corrected this error went to their graves believing they were guaranteed to go straight to heaven, some without ever repenting.

Ginger
How do you know how anyone went to his grave? Do you really believe that they weren’t sorry for their sins? I’m sure there were some who did, as I’m sure there are some OSAS people today who aren’t truly repentant. Actually, I think the OSAS doctrine is disastrous. How many people don’t really worry about sinning, espeically the “little” sins, because they falsely believe that their salvation is assured?

Isn’t the idea of buying indulgences very similar in practice to the OSAS doctrine? Sure, OSAS doesn’t involve money, but it is the same idea in that people believe that they can assure their salvation by doing something. In the case of OSAS the act is “accepting Jesus as my lord and savior”. Neither teaching is supported in the Bible or in Catholic doctrine.

The difference is that OSAS is officially taught in many Protestant churches.

But back to infallibiliy. You believe that saying the pope is not impeccable is a “loophole”. Actually, it’s the pope’s default state. It’s every person’s default state. No one is perfect. The statements the pope makes ex-Cathedra are protected from error by God. In other words, God does not allow error in official teaching. This is all God. The individual pope has nothing to do with it. It’s not the Pope’s righteousness that counts. An imperfect person, as every person is, cannot be guaranteed to be correct. There is no guarantee that when a person speaks, though he has spent time and effort reasoning out his opinion, he is correct.

The Church doesn’t rely on the perfection of the Pope, but on the guarantee that God gave his church. (It’s found in the Bible.)

BTW, it’s a small difference, but important. It’s not “ex-Cathedral”, it’s “ex-Cathedra”, meaning from the chair.

"Literally “from the chair”, a theological term which signifies authoritative teaching and is more particularly applied to the definitions given by the Roman pontiff. Originally the name of the seat occupied by a professor or a bishop, cathedra was used later on to denote the magisterium, or teaching authority. The phrase ex cathedra occurs in the writings of the medieval theologians, and more frequently in the discussions which arose after the Reformation in regard to the papal prerogatives. But its present meaning was formally determined by the Vatican Council, Sess. IV, Const. de Ecclesiâ Christi, c. iv: “We teach and define that it is a dogma Divinely revealed that the Roman pontiff when he speaks ex cathedra, that is when in discharge of the office of pastor and doctor of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by the universal Church, by the Divine assistance promised to him in Blessed Peter, is possessed of that infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer willed that his Church should be endowed in defining doctrine regarding faith or morals, and that therefore such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves and not from the consent of the Church irreformable.” ’
 
I’m a saved by faith in my Lord Jesus Christ and Luther or any other man didn’t give me that faith, but the Holy Spirit did.
I dont know much about Luther, what kind of a man he was, but I know about Christ and that is the most important thing we can ever know.
How do you know what you know about Christ?
 
Kalt, your #459 post makes outstanding counterpoints to Ginger2’s focus on selling indulgences.👍
 
How do you know what you know about Christ?
Because the Bible is God’s word and he has given it to men to reveal himself to us and to show us how sinful man can be reconciled to himself through the death of the Lord Jesus Christ.
The Holy Spirit strives with us to bring us to the truth and once we believe and trust Jesus Christ he gives us his Holy Spirit so that we can understand the Scriptures. 🙂
 
How do you know how anyone went to his grave? Do you really believe that they weren’t sorry for their sins? I’m sure there were some who did, as I’m sure there are some OSAS people today who aren’t truly repentant. Actually, I think the OSAS doctrine is disastrous. How many people don’t really worry about sinning, espeically the “little” sins, because they falsely believe that their salvation is assured?

Isn’t the idea of buying indulgences very similar in practice to the OSAS doctrine? Sure, it doesn’t include money, but it is the same idea. People believe that they can assure their salvation by doing something. In the case of OSAS the act is “accepting Jesus as my lord and savior”. Neither teaching is supported in the Bible or in Catholic doctrine.

The difference is that OSAS is officially taught in many Protestant churches.

But back to infallibiliy. You believe that saying the pope is not impeccable is a “loophole”. Actually, it’s the pope’s default state. It’s every person’s default state. No one is perfect. The statements the pope makes ex-Cathedra are protected from error by God. In other words, God does not allow error in official teaching. This is all God. The individual pope has nothing to do with it. It’s not the Pope’s righteiousness that counts. An imperfect person, as every person is, cannot be guaranteed to be correct. There is no guarantee that when a person speaks, though he has spent time and effort reasoning out his opinion, he is correct.

The Church doesn’t rely on the perfection of the Pope, but on the guarantee that God gave his church. (It’s found in the Bible.)

BTW, it’s a small difference, but important. It’s not “ex-Cathedral”, it’s “ex-Cathedra”, meaning from the chair.

"Literally “from the chair”, a theological term which signifies authoritative teaching and is more particularly applied to the definitions given by the Roman pontiff. Originally the name of the seat occupied by a professor or a bishop, cathedra was used later on to denote the magisterium, or teaching authority. The phrase ex cathedra occurs in the writings of the medieval theologians, and more frequently in the discussions which arose after the Reformation in regard to the papal prerogatives. But its present meaning was formally determined by the Vatican Council, Sess. IV, Const. de Ecclesiâ Christi, c. iv: “We teach and define that it is a dogma Divinely revealed that the Roman pontiff when he speaks ex cathedra, that is when in discharge of the office of pastor and doctor of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by the universal Church, by the Divine assistance promised to him in Blessed Peter, is possessed of that infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer willed that his Church should be endowed in defining doctrine regarding faith or morals, and that therefore such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves and not from the consent of the Church irreformable.” ’
I haven’t been playing in this thread, Luther not being one of my favorite subjects, but a couple of the recent posts seem to get indulgences a little out of focus. Indulgences don’t have anything to do with salvation. They remit the temporal punishment of sins already sacramentally forgiven, that otherwise would be due, on earth or in purgatory.

Of course, I could be getting things wrong. You know us Anglicans.

GKC
 
Because the Bible is God’s word and he has given it to men to reveal himself to us and to show us how sinful man can be reconciled to himself through the death of the Lord Jesus Christ.
The Holy Spirit strives with us to bring us to the truth and once we believe and trust Jesus Christ he gives us his Holy Spirit so that we can understand the Scriptures. 🙂
How do you know that the Bible, particularly the NT portion, is really God’s word? The NT wasn’t written until after Jesus died. Jesus didn’t write any of it. How do you know that those books, and only those books, are inspired writings?

The Bible canon wasn’t determined until the 4th century. Later, Luther decided that some books of the OT aren’t inspired and removed them from the canon (the list of inspired books). Additionally, he wanted to remove some of the books in the NT.

How do you know that they Bible is God’s word? And how do you know that he gave it to men?
 
I haven’t been playing in this thread, Luther not being one of my favorite subjects, but a couple of the recent posts seem to get indulgences a little out of focus. Indulgences don’t have anything to do with salvation. They remit the temporal punishment of sins already sacramentally forgiven, that otherwise would be due, on earth or in purgatory.

Of course, I could be getting things wrong. You know us Anglicans.

GKC
No, you are correct. But Protestants don’t believe in Purgatory, so they view selling indulgences as selling tickets to Heaven. Actually, they think the same thing about indulgences in general.

That is why Ginger2 mentioned indulgences and salvation. She mistakenly beleives that Catholics thought that indulgences bought salvation.

She speaks against this, yet the OSAS thinking is similar to her beliefs about indulgences, which she says are wrong (that you can do something to earn salvation).

People who are guilty of mortal sins, who aren’t sorry for them, don’t go to purgatory.

Anyone who is buying an indulgence has either commited a venial sin or has commited a mortal sin and has gone to Confession and recieved forgiveness. All Catholics at the time knew this. They were concerned about their time in Purgatory–or about the time someone who already died would spend in Purgatory (but that’s another story).

A person who has commited a venial sin doesn’t have to go to confession before death to be saved. If you die with only unforgiven venial sins (before you go to confession), you will be cleansed in purgatory.

So it was those who expected to be spending time in Purgatory who would buy indulgences

An indulgence isn’t forgiveness. Sins are forgiven by God in Confession or in a general confession.

But again, Protestants don’t believe that Purgatory exists. They believe that indulgences are supposed to guarantee salvation as their OSAS practice does.

They argue that OSAS is valid, but that indulgences (as they erroneously understand the concept) are invalid, while believing that both are supposed to guarantee salvation when neither thinking is supported in the Bible or in Catholic doctrines.

OSAS, however, is a formal teaching in many Protestant churches.

They seem to want assurances of their salvation in contradiction to the Bible.

ADDING -

People who aren’t truly sorry for their sins, even if they’ve gone to Confession, are not forgiven. You have to make what we call a “good Confession”.

You make a good point. Aside from not believing in indulgences and Confession, maybe they don’t really understand what they really are. I’ve been assuming that they know what they are, but choose to believe that they are something different.

Your pointing out what indulgences really are is important. 👍
 
No, you are correct. But Protestants don’t believe in Purgatory, so they view selling indulgences as selling tickets to Heaven. Actually, they think the same thing about indulgences in general.

That is why Ginger2 mentioned indulgences and salvation.

People who are guilty of mortal sins, who aren’t sorry for them, don’t go to purgatory.

Anyone who is buying an indulgence has either commited a venial sin or has commited a mortal sin and has gone to Confession and recieved forgiveness. All Catholics at the time knew this. They were concerned about their time in Purgatory–or about the time someone who already died would spend in Purgatory (but that’s another story).

A person who has commited a venial sin doesn’t have to go to confession before death to be saved. If you die with only unforgiven venial sins (before you go to confession), you will be cleansed in purgatory.

So it was those who expected to be spending time in Purgatory who would buy indulgences

An indulgence isn’t forgiveness. Sins are forgiven by God in Confession or in a general confession.

But again, Protestants don’t believe that Purgatory exists. They believe that indulgences are supposed to guarantee salvation as their OSAS practice does.

They argue that OSAS is valid, but that indulgences (as they erroneously understand the concept) are invalid, while believing that both are supposed to guarantee salvation when neither thinking is supported in the Bible or in Catholic doctrines.

OSAS, however, is a formal teaching in many Protestant churches.

They seem to want assurances of their salvation in contradiction to the Bible.
I hope this clears up any misunderstanding on the dogma, for anyone who might have been confused.

GKC

Anglicanus-Catholicus
 
How do you know how anyone went to his grave? Do you really believe that they weren’t sorry for their sins? I’m sure there were some who did,…
Thank you for acknowledging that fact.
But back to infallibiliy. … The statements the pope makes ex-Cathedra are protected from error by God…
That doesn’t stop Catholics from believing false doctrines presented by the pope, which is proven in the fact that Christians were paying money to avoid purgatory and gain early entrance to heaven.

In his 95 Theses Luther writes:
35. They preach no Christian doctrine who teach that contrition is not necessary in those who intend to buy souls out of purgatory or to buy confessionalia.

You see Luther is talking about those who teach contrary to the Church. He says, They preach no Christian doctrine who teach that contrition is not necessary…

Men representing the RC were teaching that true repentance was not necessary.

Luther taught repentance was necessary.
36. Every truly repentant Christian has a right to full remission of penalty and guilt, even without letters of pardon.
  1. Nevertheless, the remission and participation [in the blessings of the Church] which are granted by the pope are in no way to be despised, for they are, as I have said, the declaration of divine remission.
Luther was right. To say otherwise is to deny the teaching of the Catholic Church. (95 Theses #'s 36 & 38

Ginger
 
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