Shocking things everyone should know about Luther

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I like the way the Priest on EWTN said it today in his homily at today’s Mass:
“When you fight against the Church, you’ll lose, you are fighting against HIS Church and HE is protecting HER”!! He says that if you want to take that up, that you’ll have an awesome battle on your hands as you are fighting against GOD Himself!!.

The drawback there is that any amount of unrighteous & anti-Christian conduct can be sanctified by such reasoning. With the result that the Church that has no reason to exist other than to serve Christ & do His works, can all too easily end up working against Him. Some things simply cannot be justified, without falsifying the meaning of what it is to be a Christian. The Church’s authority is of no value or weight if it is used for evil ends - to say otherwise, is to deny it has any foundation in the moral character of God And that amounts to a version of “Might is right” ​

Rev. 2 & 3 do not suggest that Christ approves all that is in local churches; so why should the Church Universal be beyond reproach ? Or am I missing something ?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

ah !!

But cannot the same be said of Judas Iscariot.

Jesus says, “The Son of man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born” (Matt. 26:24). If Judas ended up in heaven rather than hell, it would be difficult to see how it would have been better for him not to have been born. Going through any amount of temporal pain and disgrace is not worth comparing to the joys of heaven (Rom. 8:18), and, if Judas went to heaven, matters still came out infinitely to his benefit. Only if Judas went to hell, it seems to me, would it have been better for him not to have been born.

You’ll have to clarify - my brain is clogged )​

 

[c659smith]

I distimguish, as many people do, between anti-semiticism and anti-judaism. Anti-semiticism is racial prejudice which emcompasses Jews who are not believers.

I do not understand your thread with this forum. Luther was not branded a hereitic because of his relationship with Jews.

He was excommunicated because of his denial of Sacred Scripture, Sacred Teachings, and Sacred traditions.

He willfully fought aganist the Catholic Church seperating himself from the Church and causing his branding when trying to change scripture.

He was not branded a Heritic because of his disagreement with current policy of the Church at the time. But of his betrayal of physically causing damage to the Church and his active movement to get others to leave the Church of Christ.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

And I don’t disagree with that. The fact that they CAN harmonize just about everything is what scares the hell out of me and should as well other Christians.

Might not the same be said of any Christian group with a tradition of theological study ? The first Christians probably gave that impression to their non-Christian Jewish critics - some of what is said about Jesus in the NT is not terribly convincing: unless one is already Christian. Some posters, being Jews, have made this very point So how is the criticism notably problematic for Catholics ?​

 

[c659smith]

You’ll have to clarify - my brain is clogged )​

In reference to your argument that Christ was working through Martin Luther,

Can it be said that Christ was working through Judas and the devil. Using their own free will to betray which is what a hereitic does. Luther Betrayed the Catholic Church which is the clergy and layity as the Body and Jesus as the Head. Thus betraying Christ himself possibly leaving him to the same fate as Judas.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I don’t know if I can find a post on it, but I asked open questions about OSAS and sin, and that’s the answer I (without exception) got.

It seems that OSAS really doesn’t make sense when you actually pull it apart and examine it.

It probably makes people feel good, but it doesn’t make sense.

Sometimes the response what that a person who is an unrepentant murderer is actually repentant or that God will save him anyway.

Other times, more often, the fact that the person murdered someone is seen as proof that the person was never saved to begiin with.

So we ask how someone who has accepted Jesus as his savior can suddenly become unsaved. How could he have thought he accepted Jesus but really didn’t. How, then, can anyone be sure? You think you’ve accepted Jesus, but maybe you didn’t.

And does that person have to be baptized again, because the first on didn’t take? If baptism is an outward sign of an internal state (as I think the OSAS believe it to be), how can an unsaved person be baptized? Is baptism, then, sometimes a false sign?

You see, there are all kinds of logical problems with the OSAS postiion. And no one here has been able to define it so that it makes sense.

Can you?

It’s been discussed a billion (British measurement BTW) times. Some forms of OSAS may well be indefensible - that’s not a reason to assume the Reformed version or counterpart of it, AKA the preservation of the Saints, also is. BTW, St. Augustine was extremely influential on Calvin’s understanding of grace & salvation - most Catholic complaints against Calvin’s positions on this issue are also complaints against Augustine. They might both be wrong - but they were not soft in the head. If critics of Calvin’s doctrine ignore his teaching on man’s responsibility to God, & treat what he says as though it were meant as an excuse for moral licence, that is no fault of Calvin’s.​

 

[bobregan]

Not exactly. What I would say is that only God is infallible. In that vein yes the Holy Spirit gives us ears that can hear and eyes that can see; however, we are inevitably clouded by our flesh, the world, and so on. God does ensure His church drives in the direction He wants it to go. For some reason God allowed the reformation to take place. For some reason God allowed the abuses within the RCC (during the 15th century) to take place. As a Calvinist I believe God not only allowed these things but decreed them (as He decrees everything, whether actively or passively).

I can only speculate as to God’s reasoning for this … maybe it’s a divine checks and balances system (honestly it’s the only thing I can come up with)??

the visible church here on earth is a collection of fallible men, while indwelt with the Spirit still possess the infermities of the flesh. So yes you are correct in your summation of my position.

you’re confusing Calvin with Zwingli.

simple, God! (though I’m not sure about Osteen … LOL)

can you provide evidence for the claim that Peter was the founder of the RCC (beyond internal claims)? Happy fishing

External evidence that Peter was founder of Catholic Church:

Scott Hahn

Marcus Grodi

Richard John Neuhaus

Francis Beckwith (former head of US Evangelical Theological Society)

And all other Protestant clergy, theologians, laity that once they have thoroughly researched the history and facts of early Christianity and the Apostles and found that the Catholic Church today is the one true Church and is the same Church started by Peter 2000 years ago, and then convert to Catholicism.

There can be no evidence of Peter being the first leader (pope) of the Catholic Church from a Protestant perspective. How? If a Protestant theologian is to come out and state this, it basically nullifies his own Protestant church. And like the above mentioned when confronted with the truth, have no choice but to become Catholic.Many Protestant theologians/writers (Oscar Cullman, A. Harnack, for example) are getting close and stating that in Matt: 16 the “rock” mentioned is Peter. I’m guessing that they stop there because the next logical question is to ask if Peter was the head of the Church. And the answer they might be afraid to discover (as many others have) is “Yes.” Beckwith (and I believe I’m spelling his name correctly) was the President of the Us Evangelical Theological Society made up of 1200 Protestant theologians. He researched the Fathers and the early Church, and announce a couple years ago at their national conference that he was stepping down as President of the organization because he was converting to Catholicism.

In the USA here there are many interesting developments happening at Protestant/Baptist seminaries. The schools know they must teach on Church history prior to 1500. When the Protestant Professors they charge with the task of looking at the early Church, the Church Fathers, etc. research the history, they are finding that the Catholic Church is the only Church sitting on the shoulders of Peter. They are put in an uncomfortable position then if they are to teach this to their seminarians. There have been several instances where these Protestant Professors, after their research in to the early Church, have then converted to Catholicism. They have told their seminary presidents that they would still like to teach on this subjects, but only as a Catholic.

If you want to go towards the argument that the Catholic Church before Nicea and Constantine is a different Church from the Roman Catholic Church post, trust me, there’s a big enough hole in that argument to sail an aircraft carrier through. The Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same. Best to research it on Catholic Answers, for example.

 

[TertiumQuid]

We don’t have to have a single mind about him - his historical status is a question of historical, & not doctrinal, judgement. AFAICS, Jedin is right.​

The paradigm of determining absolute truth, as I understand Roman Catholicism is infallible pronouncment, so until an absolute infallible pronouncement is put forth by either council or pope, the Roman Catholic statements concerning Luther, or implying Luther’s teaching, have enough lack of definitness to allow Roman Catholics to view Luther however they want to, or at least to able to view him according to what’s been stated already with qualifications.

James Swan

 

[bobregan]

And just thinking further here on the case of Francis Beckwith, former President of the US Evangelical Theological Society:

Here was obviously a very learned, smart, religious, educated man. He was the head of an organization with 1200 Protestant theologians. He investigates the early Church, and probably prayed that every stone he overturned would say “Protestant.” But every time he turned over a stone it said “Catholic.” Enough to cause him to convert.

The wonderful thing is he has brought many beautiful gifts from his Protestant Evangelical background in to the Catholic Church. There are many wonderful Protestants on this thread with many gifts. How enriched would the Church be if they brought them home to the Catholic Church.

 

[ICA04]

Might not the same be said of any Christian group with a tradition of theological study ? The first Christians probably gave that impression to their non-Christian Jewish critics - some of what is said about Jesus in the NT is not terribly convincing: unless one is already Christian. Some posters, being Jews, have made this very point So how is the criticism notably problematic for Catholics ?​

Very simply because they can profoundly distort what Scripture says and what the truth is by slowly heating the water until the frog boils to death. One doesn’t even realize it until they have left the RC for some time.

 

[w_stewart]

The paradigm of determining absolute truth, as I understand Roman Catholicism is infallible pronouncment, so until an absolute infallible pronouncement is put forth by either council or pope, the Roman Catholic statements concerning Luther, or implying Luther’s teaching, have enough lack of definitness to allow Roman Catholics to view Luther however they want to, or at least to able to view him according to what’s been stated already with qualifications.

James Swan

The condemnation by the Catholic Church against the heresies of Luther is enough to call him heretic.

 

[Ginger2]

Hi, Ginger2,

You come up with something that no one else has heard of, and then demand others prove their position. Why not move a little closer to your own demands and post the links that support your stated position that OSAS does not exist.

God bless

Wrong, You guys claim Protestant churches teach OSAS means you can blatantly continue in sin after accepting Jesus.

I said show me the documentation to prove your assertion as I have never been taught that by any church I have attended.

Ginger

 

[Ginger2]

Hi, Ginger2,
tqualey;4950389:

There is no unified position in Protestantism that all or even most Protestants agree upon…
That is not a problem. Well, that is what makes a horse race … please produce these, “…same basic doctrines of Christianity…” that unites Protestants.

All true Christians believe in the same basic doctrines which are found in the Holy Scriptures and summarized in the Apostle’s Creed:
I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Creator of heaven and earth, Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord: John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,
Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit, Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
born of the Virgin Mary, Luk 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name [was] Mary.
suffered under Pontius Pilate, Luke 23:16 I will therefore chastise him, and release [him].
was crucified, Luk 23:23 And they were instant with loud voices, requiring that he might be crucified. …24 And Pilate gave sentence that it should be as they required.
died, Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
and was buried. Luk 23:52 This [man] went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. 53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.
He descended into hell. Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Etc.,…

Thank you for asking.

 

[gcnuss]

External evidence that Peter was founder of Catholic Church:

Scott Hahn

Marcus Grodi

Richard John Neuhaus

Francis Beckwith (former head of US Evangelical Theological Society)

And all other Protestant clergy, theologians, laity that once they have thoroughly researched the history and facts of early Christianity and the Apostles and found that the Catholic Church today is the one true Church and is the same Church started by Peter 2000 years ago, and then convert to Catholicism.

Hahn, Grodi, Neuhaus, and, most recently, Beckwith are high-profile converts. I would add Avery Dulles to that list. Yet, there are many more equally learned Protestant clergy and theologians who have not discerned that the Catholic Church has the authority that it claims to have. Many have engaged, and continue to engage, in ecumenical discussions with the Catholic Church without reaching the conclusions that Hahn, Grodi, et al. have reached. Why would one put more credence in a few well-publicized converts than in the more anonymous majority who have not converted?

 

[kalt]

You are not depending on him to save you, that is the problem.
You dont trust him, or his Word.
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
I wish I did scare you, only to repent.
If you carry on like this you will go to hell, PLEASE don’t die in your sins.

You still don’t scare me. I find the OSAS farce impossible to believe because it makes no logical sense. But all the more because the Bible doesn’t support that erroneous belief.

 

[kalt]

Wrong, You guys claim Protestant churches teach OSAS means you can blatantly continue in sin after accepting Jesus.

I said show me the documentation to prove your assertion as I have never been taught that by any church I have attended.

Ginger

This is not an attack on you. But I want to point out that you don’t know the Catholic faith very well, and you were once a Catholic (from another post). That you don’t know what many Protestants believe about the OSAS falacy is no different, imo. Your lack of knowledge doesn’t determine what is actually taught in Protestant churches.

 

[kalt]

Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. Hebrews 13:5

How can he put me in hell, when he promised to never leave me or forsake me.

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE 1 John 5:13

God doesn’t walk away from people. People walk away from God.

And what of the other quotations from the Bible that show that believing in OSAS is a false belief? What of Paul?

 

[kalt]

You are not depending on him to save you, that is the problem.
You dont trust him, or his Word.
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
I wish I did scare you, only to repent.
If you carry on like this you will go to hell, PLEASE don’t die in your sins.

Actually, Catholics do depend on God. It’s you, I believe, who doesn’t trust God’s word. The Bible doesn’t support the OSAS falacy. Why do you not trust that what the Bible says is true?

 

[kalt]

Yes, I am certain of my eternal destination.

God always keeps His promises.

Paul said, “Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.”

He wasn’t doubting his eternal salvation.

Romans 8:38 “For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, SHALL BE ABLE TO SEPARATE US from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

I am certain of my eternal fate because God always keeps His promises.

Mark 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

1Jo 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

I know because I depend on God. God will not fail.

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal life

You mistake being certain that salvation is offered with being uncertain that it is offered. Of course salvation is offered. Of course we are “certain”, as Paul said, that God has offered us salvation. We have every confidence in God.

If Paul (and Catholics) weren’t certain that salvation is offered, we would be fighting for something that we are uncertaiin of. We trust God’s word, so we fight with certainty–that God’s work on the cross has redeemed everyone, and that salvation is offered.

We couldn’t be more certain. We trust God. We don’t fight as if we don’t know. We fight with every confidence in God’s word.

 

[kalt]

It’s gone midnight here in Northern Ireland, so I’m very tired.

I have come to the conclusion that Forums are not a place to spread the Gospel, because there is too much debating going on and a Christian is not supposed to debate.
So I’ll love and leave you with a few thoughts, which I should have done in the first place.

I’ll probably be banned with what I’m about to write anyway.

There is only one way to heaven and that is through the Lord Jesus Christ.
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Going to a preist to forgive you of your sins and trusting the word of a mere man(the pope)will land you along with them in hell.

And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. This verse does not apply to our earthly fathers, but it is the spiritual use of the term.

The pope is not the vicar of Christ.

The head of the church is the Lord Jesus Christ.

Clergy are unbiblical.

The extra biblical stuff that rcc teach about Mary is sin.
Mary like all of us was a sinner and she needed a Savior too.
**And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. **

She, but Joseph never had sexual relations with her untill Jesus was born.
Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things? And no the greek here does not mean cousins.

This is what you need to do. You need to realise that you are lost and that if you die tonight you will be in hell.
The Lord Jesus Christ went to calvary to suffer bleed and die for you and if you repent and trust the Lord Jesus and completely rely on him you will be saved.
No amount of good works will get you to heaven.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
A saved person is known by there works, but works dont saved us.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
**That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. **
All you have to do is repent and believe that the Lord Jesus Christ died for you personally and you will be saved, it’s that simple.
Please pray to God to open up your understanding and show you the way of salvation, do it and mean it and he will show you.

I love you all and I pray that you will all (those that are not already) be saved and ready for eternity.

You love us? Well, you certainly have a nasty way of showing it. Hardly Christian. Aren’t those who are OSAS supposed to reflect God’s love in their dealings with other people? Especially those who you call “the unsaved”?

Back to the drawing board with you.

Happy St. Patrick’s Day, from an Irish Catholic w/ Roscommon and Leitrim stock.

Boy, now I bet you really love me. :kissme: