Shooting stray dogs

[Pug]

I have a question about killing stray dogs that attack our sheep and goats.
After seeing some of our sheep being ripped apart by dogs running around in packs. We decided to defend our sheep and goats for ever experiencing this again. Since in my country you have to have a large amount of sheep and goats to get a gun/rifle permit. We decided to poison the wild dogs. Many owners in my country do that if they don’t have a gun/rifle license.
Is it morally wrong or a sin to kill these dogs in this way?

A month or so ago a pack of dogs attacked our sheep but didn’t kill any, since I chased them away and threw rocks at them. I was so mad, I’m still angry that this attack happened. Two neighbours of mine did have fatal attacks on their sheep. I think it’s the same pack of dogs. (some of these dogs are stray dogs but some have owners but let them run around)
I live in the Caribbean.

I would appreciate your reply. I asked this question on the thread of moral theology, but didn’t get a reply, I would like to know what the stand is of the Roman Catholic Church about my case.

Thanks in advance!

Is there any chance the poison could harm a child or passerby? Where you live would someone eat the flesh of a dead dog if they found it and didn’t know it was poisoned? Is it against the law in your country to use poison in the manner you plan? Is there risk of retaliation or conflict from the ones who have let their dogs loose? Who owns the land where the attacks are happening (is it common pasture, governed by particular laws)? Are you doing this to save your flocks/herds, or is there any chance you are responding to the dogs too emotionally?

These are just some of the things you might consider.

It is wrong to cause needless suffering to animals, but if this is needed to protect your sheep and goats from suffering and death, I can’t see that what you propose is needless. Shooting would be better, but you don’t have that option. The Church allows the killing of animals if you have a good reason. What you propose has to be fair, though, and not pose undue risk to the other people in your area.

 

[Dale_M]

Is it morally wrong or a sin to kill these dogs in this way?

I do not have a direct answer, but wonder if you have read what the Catechism says about our use and treatment of animals.

2415 The seventh commandment enjoins respect for the integrity of creation. Animals, like plants and inanimate beings, are by nature destined for the common good of past, present, and future humanity.194 Use of the mineral, vegetable, and animal resources of the universe cannot be divorced from respect for moral imperatives. Man’s dominion over inanimate and other living beings granted by the Creator is not absolute; it is limited by concern for the quality of life of his neighbor, including generations to come; it requires a religious respect for the integrity of creation.195

2416 Animals are God’s creatures. He surrounds them with his providential care. By their mere existence they bless him and give him glory.196 Thus men owe them kindness. We should recall the gentleness with which saints like St. Francis of Assisi or St. Philip Neri treated animals.

2417 God entrusted animals to the stewardship of those whom he created in his own image.197 Hence it is legitimate to use animals for food and clothing. They may be domesticated to help man in his work and leisure. Medical and scientific experimentation on animals is a morally acceptable practice if it remains within reasonable limits and contributes to caring for or saving human lives.

2418 It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly. It is likewise unworthy to spend money on them that should as a priority go to the relief of human misery. One can love animals; one should not direct to them the affection due only to persons.

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a7.htm

In killing the stray or feral dogs which are threatening your livestock, you are not killing them needlessly. So, as I see it, the question is whether the use of poison is an acceptable of killing when the use of a gun is not available.

I am not certain, and perhaps more educated persons than myself can weigh in. However, we do use poison on rodents without much compunction. And in medical experimentation, animals (at times apes and monkeys) are sometimes exposed to medicines or chemicals which are toxic, even fatal.

 

[TimothyH]

Take my statement any way you like, but God help the person that I ever catch dumping a living creature out onto the street like garbage.

So your solution for those who mistreat animals is to mistreat people?

We don’t have to take your statement in any way whatsoever. You have stated your position very clearly.

-Tim-

 

[Newbie2]

I do not have a direct answer, but wonder if you have read what the Catechism says about our use and treatment of animals.

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a7.htm

In killing the stray or feral dogs which are threatening your livestock, you are not killing them needlessly. So, as I see it, the question is whether the use of poison is an acceptable of killing when the use of a gun is not available.

I am not certain, and perhaps more educated persons than myself can weigh in. However, we do use poison on rodents without much compunction. And in medical experimentation, animals (at times apes and monkeys) are sometimes exposed to medicines or chemicals which are toxic, even fatal.

Right. The intent is crucial. If someone goes out to shoot stray dogs for fun, then it’s sinful. If there is a reasonable purpose i.e. that such dogs are a menace, then they should be treated like any other wild animal that threatens man or man’s interests i.e. livestock, and can be shot.

So…stray dogs would need to pose some sort of reasonable hazard in order to justify shooting them. If a poodle were dropped off by some idiot and left to fend for itself, and it came wandering on to someone’s property looking for food, water, care, companionship, etc., shooting it would be sinful i.e. needlessly taking the life of an animal.

 

[genevievelives]

Sadly, you are correct about how people view animals in the U.S.

“The Malaysian solution” is really the everywhere solution. Even PETA puts down 97% of the animals they pick up.

Your source for this “statistic”, please?

gen

 

[genevievelives]

"Even PETA puts down 97% of the animals they pick up."

The latest statistic I could find, quoted in a 2008 Newsweek, was as follows:

" Since 1998 PETA has killed more than 17,000 animals, nearly 85 percent of all those it has rescued."

Have you been to their website? Have you seen the condition many of these pets are in when found? Euthanasia has its place, at least in the animal world, where we can end suffering.

Seventeen thousand animals over the course of ten years represents 85% of the animals they euthanized. Don’t dismiss the placement of the other fifteen percent.

I’m not a rancher and don’t want to be. Roving packs of dogs, or even raccoons, are dangerous, and one must protect livestock. But wanton shooting of wandering and perhaps lost dogs or cats is unconscionable. Who cannot appreciate the difference? Why not?

gen

 

[FredM]

Could you put up a fence?
Could you get your own dog(s), large and trained to ward off attackers?
Please be sure you have explored all options before killing them. But, you do have the right to protect your animals.

In my opinion catholics have a lower regard for animals, generally, than many others. This has been a hold over from the theology of St. Thomas and is an area that I’ve found disappointing since I converted.

Fred

 

[andre]

It is wrong to cause needless suffering to animals, but if this is needed to protect your sheep and goats from suffering and death, I can’t see that what you propose is needless. Shooting would be better, but you don’t have that option. The Church allows the killing of animals if you have a good reason. What you propose has to be fair, though, and not pose undue risk to the other people in your area.

Thanks for the answers,
The land were the sheep and goats are on is our own property, it is fenced. The dogs dig holes under the fence or climb over the fence to attack. Our property is a distance from the urban areas. We have done this before many years ago and it was affective back then but now it seems it started all over again.
The poison we are going to use is a pesticide but used without diluting with water. We are very carefull and only put it out when no one is around, we have cats and chicken running around so we are very carefull.And the side of our property from where they usually attack is bordering to a no mans land. The center for agriculture and husbandry even sells the pesticide and they know where it’s for, the center used to send people in the past to help with preparing the poison and placing the poisened meat/food. And we don’t have a law against it.
Our ‘neighbours’ live a distance from us and wouldn’t know that this is being done and some of the dogs are wild dogs, and the ‘owners’ don’t know that their dogs are attacking lifestock.
This is the only option we have.

 

[Brendan]

. This has been a hold over from the theology of St. Thomas and is an area that I’ve found disappointing since I converted.

Fred

But since the theology of St. Thomas (Aquinas I presume you meant) is correct, what would be the cause of your disappointment.

Surely you cannot mean that you think that you personally know more about theology in this matter than Aquinas?

 

[vz71]

However, we do use poison on rodents without much compunction. And in medical experimentation, animals (at times apes and monkeys) are sometimes exposed to medicines or chemicals which are toxic, even fatal.

Generally the poison used on rodents is able to be safely applied to the purpose.

By their size, it would be difficult to place a poison trap where a dog could get caught but a human could not.

As to killing of stray dogs…it may be a good idea.
I cannot think of a specific good that comes from stray dogs running loose.
But I can readily come up with harms that stray dogs cause.

 

[Pug]

Thanks for the answers,
The land were the sheep and goats are on is our own property, it is fenced. The dogs dig holes under the fence or climb over the fence to attack. Our property is a distance from the urban areas. We have done this before many years ago and it was affective back then but now it seems it started all over again.
The poison we are going to use is a pesticide but used without diluting with water. We are very carefull and only put it out when no one is around, we have cats and chicken running around so we are very carefull.And the side of our property from where they usually attack is bordering to a no mans land. The center for agriculture and husbandry even sells the pesticide and they know where it’s for, the center used to send people in the past to help with preparing the poison and placing the poisened meat/food. And we don’t have a law against it.
Our ‘neighbours’ live a distance from us and wouldn’t know that this is being done and some of the dogs are wild dogs, and the ‘owners’ don’t know that their dogs are attacking lifestock.
This is the only option we have.

Then, carried out carefully and safely, as you plan to do, I think it can be done.

My only remaining thought is that you mention that your neighbors do not know about the attacks their dogs are making. I am somewhat concerned about that, but I am having difficulty being more specific for you. Maybe someone else here has an idea about if that matters?

 

[severus68]

Do stray dogs mysteriously fall down from the skies?

People throw out dogs when they are sick, when they lose their puppy cuteness and for other selfish reasons. No one should get a pet unless they are prepared to take care of them for life. If someone cannot take care of a pet any longer for health or other good unforseen reason, there are options to throwing your pet out into the street.

If your dog is aggresive with other animals and or people, common sense will tell you not to let it roam free.

I can understand shooting feral dogs in self defence when you are in immediate of your life or the lives of others, human and otherwise but I would still be sad that it comes to that. Again where did these pack dogs come from?

Shooting a dog that is not threatening you just because it is not licensed is cruel and barbaric. Negligent, irresponsible owners should be penalised not the dogs. There should be microchipping and national databases. People who ill treat or abandon their dogs should be banned from keeping pets and should be made to pay large fines wth the monies going to animal shelters and charities.

God’s mercy, compassion and love is for non humans too.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

I am always surprised at how in general animal lovers on this forum are so guilty of blantant animal abuses. I’m guessing that after 10 questions from me and your answers, I can point out serious abuses by you in regard to the animal kingdom.

Not being judgemental, just the stated work of a fellow christian… matt 15 :15

The point is that we are called to act in the best ways that bring glory to God. How we react to that calling is seems to be subjective to each person. Alll that we can ask of one another is to do our best to bring glory to God.

Discussions such as this seem to be one side trying to convenience the other that they need to change their thinking and ways. It’s more of a two way street than the side that is trying to do the conveniencing cares to admit to themselves.

 

[Dale_M]

The point is that we are called to act in the best ways that bring glory to God. How we react to that calling is seems to be subjective to each person. Alll that we can ask of one another is to do our best to bring glory to God.

Discussions such as this seem to be one side trying to convenience the other that they need to change their thinking and ways. It’s more of a two way street than the side that is trying to do the conveniencing cares to admit to themselves.

I agree that often in online discussions, the actual exchange of perspectives, facts and logic with resulting appreciation for one another’s position becomes lost in an attempt to show why our own position is right.

In that spirit, I wonder if you would care to share your perspective on the discussion in this thread? I realize we’ve covered a wide range of ground and haven’t had a lot of details which might affect the best course of action in any given situation.

 

[severus68]

Could you put up a fence?
Could you get your own dog(s), large and trained to ward off attackers?
Please be sure you have explored all options before killing them. But, you do have the right to protect your animals.

In my opinion catholics have a lower regard for animals, generally, than many others. This has been a hold over from the theology of St. Thomas and is an area that I’ve found disappointing since I converted.

Fred

It must be the Catholics you have met Fred. Many Catholics and I am one, have compassion for the other of God’s creatures. Our saints were human and they were not perfect.

 

[severus68]

I am always surprised at how in general animal lovers on this forum are so guilty of blantant animal abuses. I’m guessing that after 10 questions from me and your answers, I can point out serious abuses by you in regard to the animal kingdom.

Not being judgemental, just the stated work of a fellow christian… matt 15 :15

The point is that we are called to act in the best ways that bring glory to God. How we react to that calling is seems to be subjective to each person. Alll that we can ask of one another is to do our best to bring glory to God.

Discussions such as this seem to be one side trying to convenience the other that they need to change their thinking and ways. It’s more of a two way street than the side that is trying to do the conveniencing cares to admit to themselves.

I do not disagree with what you say in your 2nd and 3rd paras. Please explain what you meant in your first para? Thank you.

 

[vera_dicere]

I think its ashame that there are dogs that stray, and its always because of irresponsible owners. They dump one dog that’s still got their reproductive organs and that one dog can spawn a stink load more.

I think shooting can be a bit hairy, as you’re not always guarenteed a kill shot first time round, but that can’t be helped.

With that said, I think stray dogs are dangerous and a nusiance. I grew up on a farm and I came home from school once to find stray dogs had been in amongst teh sheep, suffice it to say we lost a LOT of lambs and a LOT of ewes and the way they died was a lot less nicer then a head shot, heck a slow killing blast to the gut would have been quicker then teh way some of those poor sheep died.

I won’t go into details, but if I had caught those dogs, it wouldn’t be the barrell of the gun I’d use to kill them!