Shootings in Arizona

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I am amazed there does not seem to be discussion of the terrible shooting of Congresswoman from Arizona on this forum under any categoy that I looked under. I am shocked! Such a terrible event in our country – the outright attempt to asassinate one of our Congresswomen and no one finds it in their heart to offer prayer for her recovery or for the lost souls shot and killed in Tucson. Please pray that the vitriol and rhetoric eases and that everyday Americans who believe in liberty and justice are safe on their streets.
 
The shooter was a conspircists and mentally unstable. In 2009, George Tiller was murdered for being an abortionist. Does this violence mean that we should not strive to show the horror of abortion lest some mental unstable person commit a terrible crime?

Yes, we should pray for all the victims of this crime, and all murder victims around the world. Yes, we are responsible for keeping our language seasoned with salt, as it were. However, this incident should not really have bearing on what is right or wrong, unless we were already engaged in hateful speech. Rhetoric tends to distort truth and that is something we should all avoid, including the temptation to blame the actions of a mentally ill person on political speeches. That too is a distortion of truth.
 
…Please pray that the vitriol and rhetoric eases and that everyday Americans who believe in liberty and justice are safe on their streets.
Hi Pamm

As it happens I am not American. I was born in South Africa and have been living in Australia since 1986.

I hope you will believe me when I say that I take no pleasure in what I am about to write. I am not ideologically “anti-American”.

I think your country is doomed.

I think you’ve gone down a hole so deep you will not be able to climb out.

I sincerely, dearly, hope I am wrong. But right now that’s what I’m thinking.

Here is my reason for saying this.

** The various factions in America hate each other more than they love America.** Therefore any sort of rational political discourse is no longer possible. That’s the bottom line.

If you were a minor power it might not matter. Over time tempers would cool and you’d move on. But as the world’s major power you do not have the luxury of a “timeout”. While you’re bickering about eg your tax code or whatever the emerging powers are eating your lunch.

I cannot put the blame on any one party. BOTH parties have behaved abominably. Nobody, it seems, has the courage to spell out the reality of your rapidly declining power and influence.

Sorry to put it so bluntly. That’s the way it looks to me.

Believe me when I say I hope I’m wrong.
 
I hope you will believe me when I say that I take no pleasure in what I am about to write. I am not ideologically “anti-American”.

I think your country is doomed.

I think you’ve gone down a hole so deep you will not be able to climb out.
There is nothing wrong with what you said, and everyone is entitled to their own speculation as to what the future holds. I have often thought the same thing. However, I do not know how this current incident weighs on this issue. The rate of violent crime is on the decline.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States

As horrible as this incident is, it is still anecdotal and not statistically relevant. Earlier this week, Acapulco had 26 decapitated bodies dumped by organized criminals, in a country where drug-related murders is soaring into the tens of thousands and includes police and elected officials. Murder is a grave evil, whether the victim is poor or a Congresswoman.
 
Hi Pamm

As it happens I am not American. I was born in South Africa and have been living in Australia since 1986.

I hope you will believe me when I say that I take no pleasure in what I am about to write. I am not ideologically “anti-American”.

I think your country is doomed.

I think you’ve gone down a hole so deep you will not be able to climb out.

I sincerely, dearly, hope I am wrong. But right now that’s what I’m thinking.

Here is my reason for saying this.

** The various factions in America hate each other more than they love America.** Therefore any sort of rational political discourse is no longer possible. That’s the bottom line.

If you were a minor power it might not matter. Over time tempers would cool and you’d move on. But as the world’s major power you do not have the luxury of a “timeout”. While you’re bickering about eg your tax code or whatever the emerging powers are eating your lunch.

I cannot put the blame on any one party. BOTH parties have behaved abominably. Nobody, it seems, has the courage to spell out the reality of your rapidly declining power and influence.

Sorry to put it so bluntly. That’s the way it looks to me.

Believe me when I say I hope I’m wrong.
The USA is going down the slippery slope, as many other advanced nations are, for one simple reason. We are losing our humanity.

Any nation that legally kills its children, accelerates the death of its sick and elderly has lost its humanity and its capacity to value life.

It is interesting that this horrible attempt on this woman’s life takes place when we’re so close to the next anniversary of Roe vs Wade, January 22. It’s one more sign of our weak moral fiber.

We are not alone in this decline. We need to do something fast.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
pnewton

(1) Mexico is not a global superpower.

(2) I am not talking about violent crime. Tragic as the Arizona shooting is, it does not in and of itself point to the decline of America any more than the assassination of President Kennedy did.

What alarms me is the hatred that has entered the political discourse in the US. I am actually old enough to remember when Democrats and Republicans could engage in a rational discourse on the floor of the House of Representative or the Senate, when political speeches had some substance and were not mere sound bites, when legislators brought some intellectual firepower to their task. Those times are past. All I see is hysteria, hatred, shouting and lies.

As I said, if you were a minor power it would not matter. But the world is not going to give America a timeout.

I truly pains me to be writing these words.
 
What alarms me is the hatred that has entered the political discourse in the US. I am actually old enough to remember when Democrats and Republicans could engage in a rational discourse on the floor of the House of Representative or the Senate, when political speeches had some substance and were not mere sound bites, when legislators brought some intellectual firepower to their task. Those times are past. All I see is hysteria, hatred, shouting and lies.
Again, perhaps you are right, but let me throw out another factor. You mentioned soundbites. Realize that all we really here is what is reported, and that is almost always the worst. Talk shows survive by stirring the pot, as to the main media outlets. Politicians survive by pandering to those who can get them votes. I have never worked in Washington, but in the local arena, the Democrats and Republicans actually do manage to work together, once one gets behind the curtains and past the mainstream media (left) and the talk show media (right). But who would pay for advertising if no one watched?

It may well be that perception will win the day over reality, but I have to agree with JR that I am much more concerned about God’s wrath destroying American than our political bickering.
 
Well pnewton,

We’ve stated our positions. It now remains to be seen who is the most nearly right.

I am sincere when I say that I hope I am wrong.
 
I am amazed there does not seem to be discussion of the terrible shooting of Congresswoman from Arizona on this forum under any categoy that I looked under.
Pamm, you are right that this shooting is both tragic and deeply disturbing. We’ve been discussing it over the World News forum pretty much since the first word of it it the news on Saturday. There are at least three active threads on it now, and there have been plenty of prayers offered.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=526117

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=526278

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=526284

Sadly, there have been a lot of political finger pointing in those threads, too, which I think is unfortunate and misguided.
 
Jared Lee Loughner–besides having the tell-tale middle name “Lee”, second only to “Wayne” as a predictor of criminal behavior–was kicked out of community college until such time as he could provide a mental health clearance. One misdemeanor in his checkered arrest record, though having no convictions, was for possession of drug equipage. Here are You Tube transcripts from Jared Lee Loughner, with the motivational “vitriol” influencing Loughner, a grammar activist, obviously deriving from Sesame Street. Seriously, he’s a nut job from a family of “loners” and has a penchant for dissociation he calls “conscious dreaming.” Wacko.

“Hello, my name is Jared Lee Loughner,” one of the videos says, in words appearing on the screen. “This video is my introduction to you! My favorite activity is conscience [sic] dreaming; the greatest inspiration for my political business information. Some of you don’t dream – sadly.”

The video, posted Dec. 15, later turns more political.

*“The majority of citizens in the United States of America have never read the United States of America’s Constitution. You don’t have to accept the federalist laws,” the video’s titles say. “In conclusion, reading the second United States Constitution, I can’t trust the current government because of the ratifications: the government is implying mind control and brainwash on the people by controlling grammar. No! I won’t pay debt with a currency that’s not backed by gold and silver! No! I won’t trust in god!” (emphasis added)
*

Read more: foxnews.com/us/2011/01/09/arizona-suspected-gunman-no-stranger-to-trouble/#ixzz1AcPeF0c2

America’s weakness, it would seem, is having swing too far off center in seeking to protect the rights of the mentally ill. There is no means of flagging files so that the mentally ill and illegal drug users can be screened and barred from gun purchases. Let’s seek some equitable way of doing that, by God.
 
Hi Pamm

As it happens I am not American. I was born in South Africa and have been living in Australia since 1986.

I hope you will believe me when I say that I take no pleasure in what I am about to write. I am not ideologically “anti-American”.

I think your country is doomed.

I think you’ve gone down a hole so deep you will not be able to climb out.

I sincerely, dearly, hope I am wrong. But right now that’s what I’m thinking.
.
don’t apologize, Americans need to hear how the world sees us. at least two popes have expressed a similar opinion. A country who professes to base its rule on the rights of man yet systematiclally instituionalizes daily attacks on those rights, beginning with across the board denial of the fundamental right to life, is doomed. IMO

our constitution, the model for so many countries who achieved independence subsequently, has been suspended de facto since January 1973 so we no longer enjoy its protections.
 
What alarms me is the hatred that has entered the political discourse in the US. I am actually old enough to remember when Democrats and Republicans could engage in a rational discourse on the floor of the House of Representative or the Senate, when political speeches had some substance and were not mere sound bites, when legislators brought some intellectual firepower to their task. Those times are past. All I see is hysteria, hatred, shouting and lies.
Certainly the debate was once more measured; but that may have meant nothing more than that there was less at stake. Or perhaps the debate was in the calm tones used by those who know they’re all in the same club.

Are you older than the late 40s, when the American media invented McCarthyism out of hole cloth, and (usually but not always unwittingly) covered up for several Stalinist agents in the State Department? Are you older than the Kennedy-Nixon debate, where Kennedy deliberately referred to matters Nixon would’ve needed to refer to classified material to refute? Are you older than the Cuban revolution that the CIA aided and abetted? Are you older than America’s resounding victory in the Tet Offensive, that the American media deliberately presented as a defeat?

Had you even heard of any of those things, or of their true nature?

Politics has always consisted of lies and shouting, and frequently of hysteria and hatred. The lamenting over the loss of “civility” is really just the fear that, for once, justice might be done—that someone other than the duly-designated Emmanuel Goldstein might be the focus of the people’s wrath.
 
Politics has always consisted of lies and shouting, and frequently of hysteria and hatred. The lamenting over the loss of “civility” is really just the fear that, for once, justice might be done—that someone other than the duly-designated Emmanuel Goldstein might be the focus of the people’s wrath.
No kidding, this is a great video on what 'political discourse" was like in the 1800’s

youtube.com/watch?v=Y_zTN4BXvYI

we’ve come a long way
 
Hi Pamm

As it happens I am not American. I was born in South Africa and have been living in Australia since 1986.

I hope you will believe me when I say that I take no pleasure in what I am about to write. I am not ideologically “anti-American”.

I think your country is doomed.

I think you’ve gone down a hole so deep you will not be able to climb out.

I sincerely, dearly, hope I am wrong. But right now that’s what I’m thinking.

Here is my reason for saying this.

** The various factions in America hate each other more than they love America.** Therefore any sort of rational political discourse is no longer possible. That’s the bottom line.

If you were a minor power it might not matter. Over time tempers would cool and you’d move on. But as the world’s major power you do not have the luxury of a “timeout”. While you’re bickering about eg your tax code or whatever the emerging powers are eating your lunch.

I cannot put the blame on any one party. BOTH parties have behaved abominably. Nobody, it seems, has the courage to spell out the reality of your rapidly declining power and influence.

Sorry to put it so bluntly. That’s the way it looks to me.

Believe me when I say I hope I’m wrong.
American political discourse has always been pretty harsh; a legacy likely adopted from Britain, where it’s pretty harsh too.

I would dispute that all factions in America hate each other more than they love America. There are indeed some whose orientation is “internationalist” and one is inclined to think they don’t love America because they don’t love nationalism anywhere, anytime.

But what’s going on politically in the U.S. right now really is a struggle, though it isn’t unique to the U.S. Britain, for example, has taken very wide swings to the left and to the right at times. Right now, what is really going on is that there is a fundamental disagreement between two increasingly polarized parties, about how the country should be run.

Some think the present economic decline is due to too little government involvement, and some think it’s because there is too much of it. The present discourse isn’t motivated by hate, but by diametrically opposed views of what the country should be like, against the background of one party’s having moved further left than used to be the case, and having had two years of total one-party governance.

Personally, I believe this country’s economy would come back in a hurry if those who hire and invest were not so uncertain about what the left has in store for them. It presently looks as if the hard left is going to have trouble now in legislating big changes in the country. But it’s also fairly clear that this administration will attempt to do by regulation what it can’t get done by legislation.

So the uncertainty persists. You just can’t build a country’s strength when people don’t know whether next year they’ll be living in something more closely resembling the U.S. they knew, or whether they’re going to find themselves living under a socialism that even Europeans are now finding difficult to live with.

But I do have some degree of optimism that the ship of state will eventually right itself after the “smackdown” of the last two years.
 
I have to say some of the responses to my original post have been shocking. First, to suggest this event is not important because it is not “statistically relevant” sounds insane itself. It is relevant to the people who are dead or injured. What a dumb thing to say.

As for the comments coming from others about the decline of America – I too worry deeply about this. The divisiveness and focus on what separates us rather than what brings us together is dangerous and sad.

Where there are differences, we need to work to cooperation and try our very best to incremental movement to the best solutions. We just don’t live in a one size fits all world. This does not mean that any of us have to give up our values, the tenets of our faith or anything else. It means we have to be civil while we use acceptable logical and persuasive means to solve problems.

The vitriol and violent language used by our leaders or our public is wrong. Crying FIRE in a crowded movie theater is both immoral and illegal.
 
I have to say some of the responses to my original post have been shocking. First, to suggest this event is not important because it is not “statistically relevant” sounds insane itself. It is relevant to the people who are dead or injured. What a dumb thing to say.

As for the comments coming from others about the decline of America – I too worry deeply about this. The divisiveness and focus on what separates us rather than what brings us together is dangerous and sad.

Where there are differences, we need to work to cooperation and try our very best to incremental movement to the best solutions. We just don’t live in a one size fits all world. This does not mean that any of us have to give up our values, the tenets of our faith or anything else. It means we have to be civil while we use acceptable logical and persuasive means to solve problems.

The vitriol and violent language used by our leaders or our public is wrong. Crying FIRE in a crowded movie theater is both immoral and illegal.
I understand, but I think the language and the focus is a symptom, not the disease itself. What has happened is that the political parties have become more homogenous; that is to say, the Democrats are much further to the left than they were when, for example, I was a party officeholder. The Republican party has undergone a different, but similar phenomenon. It hasn’t so much lurched to the right as it has been abandoned by all but a handful of the more liberal Republicans.

But the result for both is the same. Their respective visions of America are starkly different now, much more different than they were decades ago when the Democrats had people like Jackson, Humphrey and, yes, JFK, (not to mention the Dixiecrats) and the Republicans had the Nelson Rockerfellers among its influential numbers.

Oddly enough, to one who was heavily involved in Democrat politics like I was years ago, it appears the current Republican party most strongly resembles the Democrat party of that era, and the Democrat party now most strongly resembles the Rockefeller Republicans.

And, to top it off, there was a very strong and very recent pull to the left with the influence of people like George Soros, whose vision of America is so far to the left in every way that it does not even remotely resemble what most Americans would prefer to envision. On the other side, the Tea Party people are, as near as I can tell, mainly fed up with government overregulation and overspending and are pulling the Republicans toward greater fiscal restraint than they demonstrated the last time they were really in power some four years ago. That doesn’t mean they see eye to eye with the Republicans in every way, and I doubt they do. But it really has inspired Republicans and even some Democrats whose constituencies are not reliably left-wing to reconsider the careless spending. If anything good comes of the last four years of political wrangling, that one thing might be the sole positive result. If it happens, it will happen BECAUSE of the political struggle, not in spite of it.

Yes, there have been some Blue Dog Democrats, and Gifford is one of them, at least in some ways. But Nancy Pelosi made a bunch of them walk the plank for unpopular programs, the consequence of which they lost their offices. Some didn’t, so the constituencies of some must like what they did. So, the polarization has not ended.

But regardless, it is just wrong to think the assassination attempt on Rep. Gifford was in any way inspired by the current relationships between Democrats and Republicans. The nut-case types have been around since before any of the current officeholders were born. It’s horrible, it’s tragic, but it will probably never really go away as a danger.
 
It appears more and more that those who were shocked that this wasnt being discussed more are puppets of a media with an agenda. More and more it seems that this young man was not a “palin” voter, or a dittohead but more like a lefty anarchist, closer to the liberal left than the religious right. But lets not let that get in the way of the powergrab and jumping to conclusions that the media and some polititians would have us engage in.
 
First, to suggest this event is not important because it is not “statistically relevant” sounds insane itself.

The vitriol and violent language used by our leaders or our public is wrong.
Understand if I look askance to your criticism of the language of others, as you have said my statement sounds insane. Do you consider me mentally ill because I prefer to have perspect on an even instead of a gut reaction, or is it my opinion that all murder is significant, not just the murder of the famous?

The one thing I do know is that we are all responsible for our own rhetoric. We can not work on the speck in our brother’s eye if we have a log in ours.

And no, I will still stand by my opinion that this even has nothing to do with political rhetoric. That was the opinion that was given when zero facts had been gathered. Therefore, it was a political statement, nothing more. The only moral focus that should come from this incident is how we treat, or fail to treat, the mentally ill. I say with shame that my own state is next to last in per capita spending on the mentally ill. We only spend about one third of the national average on the mentally ill, and use prisons and jails to cover the difference.
 
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