T
trustmc
Guest
I’d have said, “Where does it say that you can do that in the bible? Let’s talk later…”
Mike
- Status
Mike
O
Orionthehunter
Guest
Here are three exchanges I’ve had when confronted with “oh… we just confess our sins directly to God.”
I respond with “When did you make your last confession?” (I have yet to have a Catholic who doesn’t know within a reasonable degree of accuracy when they made their last confession)
Protestant #1: Last Sunday at church.
Orion: Did you list your sins and do a thorough examination of concience?
#1: No, I just said I was sorry for my sins.
Orion: What concience act did you do to help you not sin again?
#1: Uhhhhh. What do you mean?
Orion: At Church on Sunday when you confessed your sins, what did you decide to do that will help you avoid sinning again?
#1: I asked for God to come into my heart.
Orion: Was He gone?
#1: Well, when I sin. . . . Well you know what I mean.
Orion: I think I do. You didn’t list your sins specifically. You didn’t examine what caused you to fall. You didn’t make any firm resolution to avoid those temptations that caused you to fall since you didn’t examine what the sins and temptations were. And, you didn’t do anything as penance as a consequences of your sins.
Or:
Protestant #2: Last month/week/night/hour (fill in the time you like) in my prayers.
Orion: Did you list your sins and do a thorough examination of concience?
#2: Yes I did.
Orion: What did God say to you?
#2: Well, I didn’t hear Him say anything but I know He forgave me.
Orion: What did He ask you to do for penance when your sins were forgiven?
#2: We don’t do penance. Its not necessary.
Orion: So you don’t think you have to do anything to make it right with God?
#2: No that is why Christ died for us.
Orion: Hmmmm. So, there are no consequences for our sins?
#2: Not if we ask for forgiveness.
Orion: So you don’t really have to take responsibility for your sins and make any recompense?
#2: No, that is why Christ died for us.
Orion: So you don’t do anything to remedy/make right/expiate your sins.
#2: No, that is why Christ died for us.
Orion: Hmmm. This is the Catholic approach to children until they reach the age of reason. After that, we treat them like adults. You must never grow up in God’s eyes.
Or
#3: I don’t remember. I did it in my prayers.
Orion: When?
#3: Uhhhhhh. I did it in my prayers.
Orion: When?
#3: I don’t remember. Do **you ** remember when you did it last?
Orion: Yes I do. It was the last Saturday in October at St. Mary’s and Fr. ______ was my Confessor.
#3: God was my Confessor.
Orion:
Father was there as Christ’s representative. What did God say to you when you finished?
#3: Huhhhh? God doesn’t talk like that.
Orion: Yes He does. He spoke to the Prophets. He spoke in Israel 2,000 years ago. He spoke to the Apostles. You believe he spoke to Luther/Wesley/Smith (insert your reformer here).
#3: Well what did God say to you?
Orion: He told me that my sins were forgiven, go forth and sin no more, and He told me to do penance.
#3: God didn’t tell you that. Your Priest said that.
Orion: No, when I left the confessional, I had a Peace and Serenity that only comes from God. No man can give me that Peace and Serenity. How did you feel after you did your confession?
#3: Huhhh?
Orion: How did you feel?
#3: Uhhhhh. Better.
Orion: I see. How did you feel before you did your confession?
#3: Huhhh? I felt fine.
Orion: No guilt? No emotions?
#3: I don’t feel that way when I go to God. He is my Savior and Redeemer. How did you feel? Guilty? Embarrassed?
Orion: Yes I did. I owe everthing to God and I hate facing when I’ve let Him down.
#3: No wonder you Catholics are so guilt ridden.
Orion: No, you miss the point. It is in facing our sins and all their consequences that we are loosed of the our sins. It is the failure to deal with our sins that we are imprisoned by our sinfulness.
#3: Huhhh?
Orion: I does me good to examine specifically what it is that makes me separate me from God. Granted it arouses emotions of guilt, embarrassment and pain. But my pain is nothing compared to the pain my sin caused my fellow man and God so i take that pain to God in the confessional.
#3: That is sad. When I go before Jesus Christ, I feel good.
Orion: Me too. But God didn’t make me feel guilty or embarrassed. It was my sin that made me feel that way. But in facing my sins directly, God was able to see that I was sorry. But God knew that even before I went to Confession. God doesn’t need Confession to see into my heart.
#3: Then why go?
Orion: I need Confession to help me see into God’s heart. By facing my sins, I give the Holy Spirit the opportunity to work thru me to gain the wisdom and graces necessary to do better at avoiding these sins in the future.
I respond with “When did you make your last confession?” (I have yet to have a Catholic who doesn’t know within a reasonable degree of accuracy when they made their last confession)
Protestant #1: Last Sunday at church.
Orion: Did you list your sins and do a thorough examination of concience?
#1: No, I just said I was sorry for my sins.
Orion: What concience act did you do to help you not sin again?
#1: Uhhhhh. What do you mean?
Orion: At Church on Sunday when you confessed your sins, what did you decide to do that will help you avoid sinning again?
#1: I asked for God to come into my heart.
Orion: Was He gone?
#1: Well, when I sin. . . . Well you know what I mean.
Orion: I think I do. You didn’t list your sins specifically. You didn’t examine what caused you to fall. You didn’t make any firm resolution to avoid those temptations that caused you to fall since you didn’t examine what the sins and temptations were. And, you didn’t do anything as penance as a consequences of your sins.
Or:
Protestant #2: Last month/week/night/hour (fill in the time you like) in my prayers.
Orion: Did you list your sins and do a thorough examination of concience?
#2: Yes I did.
Orion: What did God say to you?
#2: Well, I didn’t hear Him say anything but I know He forgave me.
Orion: What did He ask you to do for penance when your sins were forgiven?
#2: We don’t do penance. Its not necessary.
Orion: So you don’t think you have to do anything to make it right with God?
#2: No that is why Christ died for us.
Orion: Hmmmm. So, there are no consequences for our sins?
#2: Not if we ask for forgiveness.
Orion: So you don’t really have to take responsibility for your sins and make any recompense?
#2: No, that is why Christ died for us.
Orion: So you don’t do anything to remedy/make right/expiate your sins.
#2: No, that is why Christ died for us.
Orion: Hmmm. This is the Catholic approach to children until they reach the age of reason. After that, we treat them like adults. You must never grow up in God’s eyes.
Or
#3: I don’t remember. I did it in my prayers.
Orion: When?
#3: Uhhhhhh. I did it in my prayers.
Orion: When?
#3: I don’t remember. Do **you ** remember when you did it last?
Orion: Yes I do. It was the last Saturday in October at St. Mary’s and Fr. ______ was my Confessor.
#3: God was my Confessor.
Orion:
Father was there as Christ’s representative. What did God say to you when you finished?#3: Huhhhh? God doesn’t talk like that.
Orion: Yes He does. He spoke to the Prophets. He spoke in Israel 2,000 years ago. He spoke to the Apostles. You believe he spoke to Luther/Wesley/Smith (insert your reformer here).
#3: Well what did God say to you?
Orion: He told me that my sins were forgiven, go forth and sin no more, and He told me to do penance.
#3: God didn’t tell you that. Your Priest said that.
Orion: No, when I left the confessional, I had a Peace and Serenity that only comes from God. No man can give me that Peace and Serenity. How did you feel after you did your confession?
#3: Huhhh?
Orion: How did you feel?
#3: Uhhhhh. Better.
Orion: I see. How did you feel before you did your confession?
#3: Huhhh? I felt fine.
Orion: No guilt? No emotions?
#3: I don’t feel that way when I go to God. He is my Savior and Redeemer. How did you feel? Guilty? Embarrassed?
Orion: Yes I did. I owe everthing to God and I hate facing when I’ve let Him down.
#3: No wonder you Catholics are so guilt ridden.
Orion:
No, you miss the point. It is in facing our sins and all their consequences that we are loosed of the our sins. It is the failure to deal with our sins that we are imprisoned by our sinfulness.#3: Huhhh?
Orion: I does me good to examine specifically what it is that makes me separate me from God. Granted it arouses emotions of guilt, embarrassment and pain. But my pain is nothing compared to the pain my sin caused my fellow man and God so i take that pain to God in the confessional.
#3: That is sad. When I go before Jesus Christ, I feel good.
Orion: Me too. But God didn’t make me feel guilty or embarrassed. It was my sin that made me feel that way. But in facing my sins directly, God was able to see that I was sorry. But God knew that even before I went to Confession. God doesn’t need Confession to see into my heart.
#3: Then why go?
Orion: I need Confession to help me see into God’s heart. By facing my sins, I give the Holy Spirit the opportunity to work thru me to gain the wisdom and graces necessary to do better at avoiding these sins in the future.
S
St.Eric
Guest
Amen, Amen Orion! I have been dealling with a couple of repetitive sins for most of my life. Before I came home to Rome, I would routinley confess the sins “directly to God.” and call it good. But guess what, I kept repeating the sins and never really felt convicted of them. 10 months ago I started doing the Sacred Heart Devotion (I finished the 9 first Fridays last month! Yippee! I plan to continue the 1st Fridays anyway) and going to confession every two weeks or so. The transformation in me and the abundance of grace given to me has been VERY NOTICABLE. The sins mentioned above have almost completely stopped. These sins were/are of a grave nature and would be classified as addictions by most in our culture today. However, through this devotion and the sacrement of reconciliation, I have truly been convicted and FORGIVEN and the urge to re-commit is drying up. This has not happend before in 20 years. The sacrements and the devotions are truly gifts from Christ given to the people of his Church. I never knew anything close to this as a Protestant. Thanks for listening!
B
buffalo
Guest
Mt 9:2-8 Son of Man has authority to forgive sins
Jn 20:23 - whose sins you forgive/retain are forgiven/retained
Jn 20:22 - breathed on them, “receive Holy Spirit” [recall Gn 2:7]
2Cor 5:17-20 - given us the ministry of reconciliation
Jam 5:13-15 - confess your sins to one another
Mt 18:18 - whatever you bind & loose on earth, so it is in heaven
1Jn 5:6 - there is sin that is not deadly
Jn 20:23 - whose sins you forgive/retain are forgiven/retained
Jn 20:22 - breathed on them, “receive Holy Spirit” [recall Gn 2:7]
2Cor 5:17-20 - given us the ministry of reconciliation
Jam 5:13-15 - confess your sins to one another
Mt 18:18 - whatever you bind & loose on earth, so it is in heaven
1Jn 5:6 - there is sin that is not deadly
O
Orionthehunter
Guest
You story is the same side of the coin I was trying to raise. If you confront them on their “confession”, it becomes really obvious how shallow their confession is making it virtually, literally, and spiritually meaningless.
M
MamaSusie
Guest
St. Eric…I am going through the same thing right now. Thanks for your story. I need this kind of motivation.
S
St.Eric
Guest
You are most welcome. God Bless.
J
JaneFrances
Guest
Not sure if this merits a new thread, but. . .
I was wondering if those (Catholics and Protestants–both of whom I know have this mindset/understanding) who believe that one only needs to confess to God directly have ever really made a thorough confession to another person?
I was wondering if those (Catholics and Protestants–both of whom I know have this mindset/understanding) who believe that one only needs to confess to God directly have ever really made a thorough confession to another person?
P
Photini
Guest
…10 months ago I started doing the Sacred Heart Devotion (I finished the 9 first Fridays last month! Yippee! I plan to continue the 1st Fridays anyway) and going to confession every two weeks or so. The transformation in me and the abundance of grace given to me has been VERY NOTICABLE. The sins mentioned above have almost completely stopped. These sins were/are of a grave nature and would be classified as addictions by most in our culture today. However, through this devotion and the sacrement of reconciliation, I have truly been convicted and FORGIVEN and the urge to re-commit is drying up. This has not happend before in 20 years. The sacrements and the devotions are truly gifts from Christ given to the people of his Church. I never knew anything close to this as a Protestant./QUOTE]
Praise the Lord! I am rejoicing with you!
I have enjoyed a similar freedom from bondage thanks to this Sacrament! Like I heard in Evangelicalism, God’s grace IS amazing!
Would you please tell me all about this Devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus? I am a revert trying to catch up and learn all I can!
Continued blessings to you!
S
St.Eric
Guest
Praise the Lord! I am rejoicing with you!
I have enjoyed a similar freedom from bondage thanks to this Sacrament! Like I heard in Evangelicalism, God’s grace IS amazing!
Would you please tell me all about this Devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus? I am a revert trying to catch up and learn all I can!
Continued blessings to you!
Thank you Photini! Please follow this link to learn all about the Sacred Heart Devotion. It is an awesome devotion and I encourage all to practice it! There are also several books on the devotion that are available through any number of Catholic bookstores both on-line and in the community. Keep me posted on your progress with the devotion if you decide to go for it! Let me know if the link doesn’t work.
sacredheartdevotion.com/
I have enjoyed a similar freedom from bondage thanks to this Sacrament! Like I heard in Evangelicalism, God’s grace IS amazing!
Would you please tell me all about this Devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus? I am a revert trying to catch up and learn all I can!
Continued blessings to you!
Thank you Photini! Please follow this link to learn all about the Sacred Heart Devotion. It is an awesome devotion and I encourage all to practice it! There are also several books on the devotion that are available through any number of Catholic bookstores both on-line and in the community. Keep me posted on your progress with the devotion if you decide to go for it! Let me know if the link doesn’t work.
sacredheartdevotion.com/
I
Ignatius
Guest
Jesus instituted the Sacrament of Confession after His resurrection and the tearing of the temple vail. Just in case you were not aware, all of the Sacred Mysteries or Sacraments were instituted by Christ.
Your brother in Christ.
R
RobNY
Guest
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/GOTOCON.HTM
This works too.
Somewhere else, I was writing on this, and I copped something from Subrosa’s posts (a poster who posts often) as well as a link he gave (the one above). I’ll paste what I had there, here. (WHat I said sort of molds the link and what subrosa said in the specific instance that I’m quoting.)
Perhaps if you coupled this with JaneFrances’s wonderful post.
This works too.
Somewhere else, I was writing on this, and I copped something from Subrosa’s posts (a poster who posts often) as well as a link he gave (the one above). I’ll paste what I had there, here. (WHat I said sort of molds the link and what subrosa said in the specific instance that I’m quoting.)
Perhaps if you coupled this with JaneFrances’s wonderful post.
E
Elzee
Guest
Thank you so much for these examples. They’re really helpful. You guys are wonderful!
F
Flopfoot
Guest
Hmm just had a slightly interestion thought.
Anyone remember the story of Moses and the bronze serpent (Numbers 21:4-9)? Anyone who had been bitten by a serpent (which was sent because of their sins) had to look at the bronze serpent and then they would live.
Why did God make Moses make the bronze serpent? Didn’t God know which of the Israelites were sorry in their heart, without having them look at a bronze serpent to prove it (and hence he could have healed them)?
I can’t really answer my own question that well but what I do know is that this is the same God (duh) who wants us to go to reconciliation, rather than just pray about our sins. It wasn’t enough for God to know that they were sorry - they had to take their own step towards forgiveness. Looking at a bronze snake is not a hard thing - the point was that it was truly their decision, their step, their self-humiliation before God.
After all, what great thing is it to know that you have sinned? I’ve heard that the Holy Spirit is the one who convincts us of our sins - in which case, I haven’t really done anything, just to know that I have sinned. What about contrition? The thing is that we could have imperfect contrition - after all, for the Israelites, the snakes would have been enough to make them sorry for their sins. If we want to be forgiven, surely we need to take steps toward it ourselves. The Holy Spirit convicting me of my sins, is not my own effort, and is not enough. The “snakes” (negative consequences), or even my sadness about offending God, that makes me feel sorry about my sin (ie, perfect contrition), is not enough. After all, even with perfect contrition, couldn’t we say, “Well, it’s sad that I offended God, but never mind, I’ll just forget about it.” That’s not seeking forgiveness. What I have to do to seek forgiveness is actually physically take my own step in the door, and spiritually humble myself to confess my sins. That is my effort, that is what’s enough to properly seek forgiveness.
Ack, now I don’t even think I kept it short. Oh well, hope it makes sense anyway.
Anyone remember the story of Moses and the bronze serpent (Numbers 21:4-9)? Anyone who had been bitten by a serpent (which was sent because of their sins) had to look at the bronze serpent and then they would live.
Why did God make Moses make the bronze serpent? Didn’t God know which of the Israelites were sorry in their heart, without having them look at a bronze serpent to prove it (and hence he could have healed them)?
I can’t really answer my own question that well but what I do know is that this is the same God (duh) who wants us to go to reconciliation, rather than just pray about our sins. It wasn’t enough for God to know that they were sorry - they had to take their own step towards forgiveness. Looking at a bronze snake is not a hard thing - the point was that it was truly their decision, their step, their self-humiliation before God.
After all, what great thing is it to know that you have sinned? I’ve heard that the Holy Spirit is the one who convincts us of our sins - in which case, I haven’t really done anything, just to know that I have sinned. What about contrition? The thing is that we could have imperfect contrition - after all, for the Israelites, the snakes would have been enough to make them sorry for their sins. If we want to be forgiven, surely we need to take steps toward it ourselves. The Holy Spirit convicting me of my sins, is not my own effort, and is not enough. The “snakes” (negative consequences), or even my sadness about offending God, that makes me feel sorry about my sin (ie, perfect contrition), is not enough. After all, even with perfect contrition, couldn’t we say, “Well, it’s sad that I offended God, but never mind, I’ll just forget about it.” That’s not seeking forgiveness. What I have to do to seek forgiveness is actually physically take my own step in the door, and spiritually humble myself to confess my sins. That is my effort, that is what’s enough to properly seek forgiveness.
Ack, now I don’t even think I kept it short. Oh well, hope it makes sense anyway.
R
RiverRock
Guest
Eric, thanks for that testimony. You said it perfectly. The beauty of Catholicism can’t be told to anyone. It’s a “personal” experience. You have to experience it for yourself. Unfortunately, many people have already made their minds up and are only here to “prove us wrong”. Pray for all the lost sheep.
J
Joysong
Guest
Dear Elzee and Smelton,
When God ordained the entire worship system in the O.T., it was He who set apart priests to make atonement for the sins of the people. (Lev. 4:31) The person who sinned was commanded to bring an animal sacrifice, lay his hand on the head of the sin offering confessing his sin, and then slaughter it on the altar. Can you see how painful this would be to have to personally slaughter an animal, knowing that your sins have caused its death? How much more should we realize that our personal sins caused the death of Christ.
We have read in this thread that our personal sins do not simply affect ourselves alone, but the entire body of the faithful. In the book of Numbers 15:26, we see the effect of the people’s sins upon the aliens residing among them also … and these were also forgiven, “since the fault of inadvertence affects all the people.”
Back to Smelton’s understanding that the veil removed the obligation to confess other than to God alone. Regarding the veil: (Heb. 9:8) “The Holy Spirit signified by this that the way into the Holies was not yet thrown open while the first tabernacle was still standing.”
Everything God ordained in the O.T. was to prefigure and prepare the people for the perfect sacrifice of Jesus in time to come.
Just as God ordained a priesthood in the O.T. to minister on behalf of His people, that priesthood did not cease in the N.T. Jesus ordained priests to carry on God’s work … nothing has changed except that the imperfect sacrifice in the Old, was now replaced by the perfect in the New. The people still have to come to the priest, but it is now through the merits of Christ that they are forgiven, rather than the imperfect manner of goats and lambs.
As the priests in the O.T. had to daily offer sacrifice, so too do the priests in the N.T. — to perpetuate and make present the sacrifice of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins. Think about the Passover meal. God commanded the people to celebrate it yearly with a new blood animal sacrifice, not simply to recall the old event as a commemoration in their family prayer service. If it was only a memorial, there would not be the need to obtain a lamb for sacrifice.
Carole
When God ordained the entire worship system in the O.T., it was He who set apart priests to make atonement for the sins of the people. (Lev. 4:31) The person who sinned was commanded to bring an animal sacrifice, lay his hand on the head of the sin offering confessing his sin, and then slaughter it on the altar. Can you see how painful this would be to have to personally slaughter an animal, knowing that your sins have caused its death? How much more should we realize that our personal sins caused the death of Christ.
We have read in this thread that our personal sins do not simply affect ourselves alone, but the entire body of the faithful. In the book of Numbers 15:26, we see the effect of the people’s sins upon the aliens residing among them also … and these were also forgiven, “since the fault of inadvertence affects all the people.”
Back to Smelton’s understanding that the veil removed the obligation to confess other than to God alone. Regarding the veil: (Heb. 9:8) “The Holy Spirit signified by this that the way into the Holies was not yet thrown open while the first tabernacle was still standing.”
Everything God ordained in the O.T. was to prefigure and prepare the people for the perfect sacrifice of Jesus in time to come.
Just as God ordained a priesthood in the O.T. to minister on behalf of His people, that priesthood did not cease in the N.T. Jesus ordained priests to carry on God’s work … nothing has changed except that the imperfect sacrifice in the Old, was now replaced by the perfect in the New. The people still have to come to the priest, but it is now through the merits of Christ that they are forgiven, rather than the imperfect manner of goats and lambs.
As the priests in the O.T. had to daily offer sacrifice, so too do the priests in the N.T. — to perpetuate and make present the sacrifice of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins. Think about the Passover meal. God commanded the people to celebrate it yearly with a new blood animal sacrifice, not simply to recall the old event as a commemoration in their family prayer service. If it was only a memorial, there would not be the need to obtain a lamb for sacrifice.
Carole
M
mark_a
Guest
I didn’t have time to read the whole thread, so maybe this is answered, but do the people who question Catholic confession to a priest realize that we must confess mortal sins to a priest, not every little thing.
When I was a kid, my Baptist friends’ parents would always call the preacher when their kids got into trouble. But they gave me a hard time about confession!
When I was a kid, my Baptist friends’ parents would always call the preacher when their kids got into trouble. But they gave me a hard time about confession!
E
Elzee
Guest
mark a:
“It doesn’t matter” is probably the best way I can summarize based on my experience. I can give you 3 answers to that based on Protestants/evangelicals I know (I’m sure there are other variances - these are just from my experience):
*]Some do believe that there are some sins greater than others, but regardless, none have to be confessed to anyone - just to God. However, they still don’t think that ANY sin can cause us to lose salvation as long as we have faith in Jesus (i.e. - there are no ‘mortal’ sins).
*]Some believe there is no distinction between levels of sin - killing someone is no more a sin in God’s eyes than stealing a quarter from a rich man (pick up your jaw! - I had to pick up mine when my Lutheran neighbor told me this - I have a thread on it in these forums)
*]Some believe that we just cannot sin, since all our ‘sins’ are forgiven - past, present, and future when we accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. Therefore while we may do things ‘displeasing’ to God, they are not sins.
- Status