Should a leader get paid?

[zaffiroborant]

There is a time and a season for everything. When a man has proven that he can take care of his family he is asked to serve the people for a time. A Bishop is only asked to serve for a few years, but his family will see the blessings of a righteous man’s service for a lifetime.

Four to seven years can be a very long time for children (the first seven years are critical and subsequent stages are no cake walk) to do without their father. Again I find it ironic that on the MAAD board someone is talking about how children need a mother and a father, yet a bishops children are supposed survive on what amounts to an absentee father.

 

[Scriptorian]

Four to seven years can be a very long time for children (the first seven years are critical and subsequent stages are no cake walk) to do without their father. Again I find it ironic that on the MAAD board someone is talking about how children need a mother and a father, yet a bishops children are supposed survive on what amounts to an absentee father.

That, to me, sounds like a harsh generalization.

I will admit that Bishops are busy. But at the same time, parents have millions of ways these days to avoid their children. I know many Bishops that do an excellent job at balancing their church and familial responsibilities.

Unfortunately, I find it sad (and a little ironic) that some of the best people in your church (clergy and nuns) rarely marry or have families at all. That just seems to miss the mark on many levels. Isn’t it hard to talk about families of our ministers, when your clergymen rarely marry at all?

 

[jfallaw]

It is similar in that it did not force anyone to be generous. Christians willfully gave of their time, talents, and riches to help the poor, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and support the widows and orphans. There was no government mandate, no big brother program, no mafia style gastapo forcing them to do it. They did it because they loved their neighbor.

Now you tell me – How is paying more taxes so the government gets to decide how generous you will be in any way more Christian than having the freedom to be generous with your own money?

The difference in today’s capitalism is not in the economic system, but in the level of greed among the people. (Sadly even among Christians) When greed and laziness increase, the effectiveness of capitalism decreases, and the more people are duped into thinking the government is the answer.

You cannot replace big G (God) with little g (government).

You should read the definition of CITIZENSHIP. Citizenship is an agreement whereby the government pledges to keep the citizen safe, secure his freedoms, and guarantee his rights as set forth in law. The citizen, in return, pledges to defend his country in time of war, pay taxes for the support of said country, and obey the laws as set forth by the government.

Oh and, not that I really believe this way, but just saying how things can be misinterpreted- What happened when Ananias and Sapphira sold their property and did not give ALL the money to the Apostles? And they didn’t even lie about it at first- they gave some money freely, and Peter accused them of holding back. So it sure SEEMS like they were forced to give…

And yes, I agree that Capitalism is beset by unmitigated greed, but what do you expect? The purpose of Capitalism IS greed. The only goal is profit for profit’s sake- always has been. There is a better way in which all are closer to equal; it is called Democratic Socialism.

 

[Scriptorian]

You should read the definition of CITIZENSHIP. Citizenship is an agreement whereby the government pledges to keep the citizen safe, secure his freedoms, and guarantee his rights as set forth in law. The citizen, in return, pledges to defend his country in time of war, pay taxes for the support of said country, and obey the laws as set forth by the government.

Oh and, not that I really believe this way, but just saying how things can be misinterpreted- What happened when Ananias and Sapphira sold their property and did not give ALL the money to the Apostles? And they didn’t even lie about it at first- they gave some money freely, and Peter accused them of holding back. So it sure SEEMS like they were forced to give…

And yes, I agree that Capitalism is beset by unmitigated greed, but what do you expect? The purpose of Capitalism IS greed. The only goal is profit for profit’s sake- always has been. There is a better way in which all are closer to equal; it is called Democratic Socialism.

There is no such thing as “Democratic Socialism.” Socialism instituted by mob rule is still socialism. Adding “democratic” to the front of it may make you feel better, but it doesn’t change the fact that the people would have to give up their freedom to the government.

Second of all, the purpose of capitalism is not greed… it’s self-interest. There is a significant difference. The idea of self-interest is that there is no one who knows what’s best for you better than you (and/or your head-of-household as the case may be). If a job and a salary and a family are what you want and what you think is best, it is your responsibility to get them for yourself.

Therefore, you have total freedom to prosper, or not, according to your own creativity, desires, and talents. This system also tends to direct people to where they will best contribute to society and where they will add the most value. Are there lots of people who are greedy? Yes, but capitalism punishes greed as much as it rewards it. Capitalism is the people, and as long as the people do not appreciate a greedy neighbor, that neighbor will have a hard time getting what he wants.

When capitalism doesn’t work is when a greedy person uses the government as a vehicle for their greed. When the government makes a law that benefits only one group, a greedy person will always take advantage of that law. The people can’t fight very effectively against the law and consequently the greedy person has no punishment for their greed. Socialism is that concept on steroids. Imagine thousands of different laws that only benefit certain groups of people with millions of people exploiting those laws for their own benefit. That’s socialism.

---

Now as far as the scriptures are concerned, I am afraid you do not understand them. The system instituted by the apostles can only work if the people involved had these characteristics:

32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. (Acts 4:32)

Sound like any community you know of? Me neither.

Also, the system was completely voluntary. You had to make a promise to the Lord that you would abide by these principle. But once you made the promise to the Lord (or the Holy Ghost - see Acts 5:3) that you will give all that you possess to the leaders of the church for the good of God’s people, you cannot break that promise without the wrath of God coming upon you.

Socialism is not the same as what the apostles instituted. We have no modern system that compares.

 

[jfallaw]

Socialism is mob rule? Do you realize our founding fathers created a Republic because they thought that Democracy was ‘mob rule’? Yes, we are a Republic, not a Democracy. We have seen time and again how the majority of Americans can vote for a president and the other guy still wins, thanks to the electoral college system. That’s why it works- it’s NOT a Democracy, which IS mob rule. In a true Democracy, the majority always rules. Our founding fathers started a Democratic Republic in order to protect the minority, which is, after all, a Christian thing to do.

 

[jfallaw]

Second of all, the purpose of capitalism is not greed… it’s self-interest. There is a significant difference. The idea of self-interest is that there is no one who knows what’s best for you better than you (and/or your head-of-household as the case may be). If a job and a salary and a family are what you want and what you think is best, it is your responsibility to get them for yourself.

BTW, that must be why American Catholics are some of the most lukewarm Christians in the world. After all, I know what’s best for me, not the ‘government’ of the Church, right?

 

[Scriptorian]

Socialism is mob rule? Do you realize our founding fathers created a Republic because they thought that Democracy was ‘mob rule’? Yes, we are a Republic, not a Democracy. We have seen time and again how the majority of Americans can vote for a president and the other guy still wins, thanks to the electoral college system. That’s why it works- it’s NOT a Democracy, which IS mob rule. In a true Democracy, the majority always rules. Our founding fathers started a Democratic Republic in order to protect the minority, which is, after all, a Christian thing to do.

No, socialism is not mob rule. Pure Democracy is mob rule. “Democratic Socialism” – which I don’t think is an actual system at all – I decided must be socialism instituted by mob rule. Can you think of something else it might be?

I don’t believe in pure democracy or socialism.

 

[Scriptorian]

Second of all, the purpose of capitalism is not greed… it’s self-interest. There is a significant difference. The idea of self-interest is that there is no one who knows what’s best for you better than you (and/or your head-of-household as the case may be). If a job and a salary and a family are what you want and what you think is best, it is your responsibility to get them for yourself.

BTW, that must be why American Catholics are some of the most lukewarm Christians in the world. After all, I know what’s best for me, not the ‘government’ of the Church, right?

I don’t know why American Catholics are lukewarm. But if your people are given freedom and do not choose to be faithful, there must be something wrong. American Mormons are just as faithful as any Mormons throughout the world (sometimes much more so).

Are you saying freedom is something we should quell?

 

[Tezza]

Unfortunately, I find it sad (and a little ironic) that some of the best people in your church (clergy and nuns) rarely marry or have families at all. That just seems to miss the mark on many levels. Isn’t it hard to talk about families of our ministers, when your clergymen rarely marry at all?

You think some of the best people are priests and religious? Indeed, there are many wonderful consecrated, but they are much fewer in number, and I suspect you haven’t met the millions of devout, faith-filled laity.

To consecrate oneself fully to Christ, i.e. celibacy for the Kingdom, is a great gift to God and to the Church. It is a calling from God, just as some are called to marry. If you were to talk to a sister, brother, nun, or priest, I’m pretty sure they wouldn’t rant about how much they hate marriage and kids or the burden of celibacy. Rather, they would speak of the desire God placed on their hearts to unite themselves completely with him.

Would you like to be the one to tell someone with this call that they should ignore it or deny it because you think everyone should marry?

 

[dixibehr]

Unfortunately, I find it sad (and a little ironic) that some of the best people in your church (clergy and nuns) rarely marry or have families at all.<<

Where did you get the idea there were any married nuns?

While many are widowed or even divorced (especially in the Eastern Churches), celibacy is part of the vocation of being a nun or religious of either sex.

 

[jfallaw]

I don’t know why American Catholics are lukewarm. But if your people are given freedom and do not choose to be faithful, there must be something wrong. American Mormons are just as faithful as any Mormons throughout the world (sometimes much more so).

Are you saying freedom is something we should quell?

Of course not. I’m just saying it should not be allowed to become anarchy. There must always be authority, whether we like it or not. The problem is most Americans I know seem to want to be their own authority, and nobody had better get in their way. That’s fine until people start suffering for my ‘freedom’. For instance, lets compare laissez-faire Capitalism to a woman. The capitalist will say that he has the right to do whatever is in his self-interest and everyone else be damned. Is that not just like a woman saying that she can have an abortion because it’s her body and in her best self-interest to do so? Yet we as Catholics seek to make it illegal for her to do so, because WE KNOW BETTER THAN HER.

In the same way, sometimes the government just knows better than us. How many people here can honestly say they could run a government? Not me. And yet that’s why every Republican I know voted for Bush- because he was just a ‘regular guy’ like them. Well look where having a regular idiot just like me running the country has gotten us. I don’t want some ‘average Joe’ running the country. I want someone ten times more intelligent, a hundred times more patriotic, and a thousand times more experienced than I. And I certainly don’t want a leader who is acting in their own self-interest. I.E., a capitalist.

 

[Scriptorian]

Of course not. I’m just saying it should not be allowed to become anarchy. There must always be authority, whether we like it or not. The problem is most Americans I know seem to want to be their own authority, and nobody had better get in their way. That’s fine until people start suffering for my ‘freedom’. For instance, lets compare laissez-faire Capitalism to a woman. The capitalist will say that he has the right to do whatever is in his self-interest and everyone else be damned. Is that not just like a woman saying that she can have an abortion because it’s her body and in her best self-interest to do so? Yet we as Catholics seek to make it illegal for her to do so, because WE KNOW BETTER THAN HER.

In the same way, sometimes the government just knows better than us. How many people here can honestly say they could run a government? Not me. And yet that’s why every Republican I know voted for Bush- because he was just a ‘regular guy’ like them. Well look where having a regular idiot just like me running the country has gotten us. I don’t want some ‘average Joe’ running the country. I want someone ten times more intelligent, a hundred times more patriotic, and a thousand times more experienced than I. And I certainly don’t want a leader who is acting in their own self-interest. I.E., a capitalist.

Where you and I differ is in the idea that the government knows better than we do what is best for us. The government may know more about running a government, but they certainly don’t know more about running a family. They don’t know more about my best contribution to society.

To your point, the church may, in fact, know better than we do how to best dedicate our lives. That’s possible.

But the government is not the church. The people in the government are rarely even honest, much less inspired to do anything more than serve their own election campaigns, wallets, or political agendas. How can you trust people who lie so often?

I am a Mormon and I would sooner trust the Pope to direct my life than I would any politician in Washington.

 

[Tezza]

I am a Mormon and I would sooner trust the Pope to direct my life than I would any politician in Washington.

HERE, HERE!

 

[jfallaw]

Where you and I differ is in the idea that the government knows better than we do what is best for us. The government may know more about running a government, but they certainly don’t know more about running a family. They don’t know more about my best contribution to society.

To your point, the church may, in fact, know better than we do how to best dedicate our lives. That’s possible.

But the government is not the church. The people in the government are rarely even honest, much less inspired to do anything more than serve their own election campaigns, wallets, or political agendas. How can you trust people who lie so often?

I am a Mormon and I would sooner trust the Pope to direct my life than I would any politician in Washington.

Yah, politicians no nothing about running a family or personal needs. Because we all know that politicians don’t have families. They don’t have the same concerns, trials and aspirations as you and I. And they certainly don’t have any faith.

As for them knowing what’s best for you- most politicians don’t pretend to. You are thinking small, whereas a politician must always consider the larger picture. You have to pay an extra couple of hundred dollars a year in taxes and you scream about how unfair it is. All the while you pass by people every day that are starving to death, freezing to death. It is up to the government to think about the rights and needs of those people. They already know that you aren’t going to do anything about it. They don’t know what’s best for you- but they do know what is needed by all.

As for lying politicians- where is the cave that you’ve been living in all your life? Diplomacy is very difficult. There is no black and white in politics. There never has been in the history of the world, and if there ever was a nation whose leaders ‘told the truth’ clearly and in a straightforward manner, that nation is not around today, for that very reason. What you think of as lying is actually diplomacy, compromise, intelligence. You have no clue the massive amounts of information any leader, let alone the POTUS- the leader of the free world- is inundated with on a daily basis. Good leaders do not commit to anything concrete concerning their methods because they know that everything changes, and they will often have to change their approach to leadership. And it doesn’t really matter- you will moan and cry no matter what they do.

I’ll give you an example from my own church. Recently, the Pope, who you stated you would follow more readily than a politician, claimed, contrary to decades of scientific study and just plain common sense, that using condoms increases your risk for AIDS. Now, I love the Pope and trust him to give me spiritual truth, but the only thing an honest, thinking man can conclude from that statement is that the Pope is either incredibly ignorant, or he lied. We all know he is not ignorant. He is highly educated. So, he lied. Of course his intent was ‘good’- he wanted to try to get Christians to stop having sex outside of marriage (the day that happens is the day Jesus comes back). But he lied. However, I guarantee there are millions of idiots who believed him. That, my friend, is politics. People will soon forget his lie- but the effect will remain. I’m sure I could give examples from the leadership of your own church, but that’s not what I’m here for.

So, your anger is with politicians, not government. First you must learn the difference. The Pope is a politician. The Church, with its many, many charitable and social programs, is a government.

Oh and you seem upset that politicians seem only to “serve their own election campaigns, wallets, or political agendas.” Once again, I respond: stop voting for capitalists. Capitalists serve their own interests. What the hell did you expect a capitalist politician to do??

Read something today about Dag Hammarskjold. A socialist and a politician, he spent his life serving others. Perhaps your only knowledge of politics is that of capitalist and communist politics. (Though Russia called itself socialist, it couldn’t have been further from socialism. That’s why it’s called communism and not socialism, see?) Read about any modern European socialist nation. It’s easy to tell which ones they are- they’re the ones you never hear anything about, because they are too busy being incredibly happy, healthy, and peaceful.