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stewstew03
Guest
But now you are drastically changing the facts to make it fit within your paradigm.
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Should a Priest Deny Communion to someone who looks like a Trans-Gendered Individual?
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houseofsaul
Guest
Please explain the difficulty in making a judgment call as the original OP asked, an OBVIOUS MAN dressed like a woman approaches the communion rail? So if an alcoholic comes to communion 3 sheets to the wind, a priest should not make a judgment call on what he sees?
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houseofsaul
Guest
Deuteronomy 22:5I am sorry that you hold this opinion but the cloths one chooses to wear is not a sin.
The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman’s garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God.
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BillP
Guest
Can you honestly not tell the difference between your opinion and factual reality??Please explain the difficulty in making a judgment call as the original OP asked, an OBVIOUS MAN dressed like a woman approaches the communion rail? So if an alcoholic comes to communion 3 sheets to the wind, a priest should not make a judgment call on what he sees?
Just because you think something is OBVIOUS doesn’t mean you’re right.
Why do you consider yourself infallible in matters of gender detection?
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neophyte
Guest
The judgement call to be made is “does this situation fulfill the conditions of Canon Law under which it is licit to refuse communion?”Please explain the difficulty in making a judgment call as the original OP asked, an OBVIOUS MAN dressed like a woman approaches the communion rail? So if an alcoholic comes to communion 3 sheets to the wind, a priest should not make a judgment call on what he sees?
And the case in view does not fulfill the conditions.
It’s really not complicated, provided you bother to educate yourself in the law rather than be unreasonably attached to your own opinion.
One who presents himself unworthily does not harm our Lord, he harms himself. But withholding the Sacraments wrongly, wrongly harms the person denied. And so in mercy, the Church, the Bride of Christ, judges it better to risk allowing someone to receive unworthily rather than risk withholding the Grace of the Sacraments from one who should rightfully receive it.
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houseofsaul
Guest
Sinners are not the problem, it’s the OBVIOUS person that should not be partaking of the Sacrament because they are outwardly showing disregard for Christ and His Sacrament but insisting that he/she still be permitted to partake. If this be the case, why have closed communion?There is a strong probability that you are surrounded by sinners during Mass on Sundays…
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BillP
Guest
Why don’t you let God sort that out?Deuteronomy 22:5
The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman’s garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God.
By the way, I know a bunch of big fellas that habitually wear skirts, why don’t you pop round to the barracks of any Highland Regiment in the British Army and “admonish the sinners” there?
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Ask about this in your RCIA class.Deuteronomy 22:5
The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman’s garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God.
We Catholics are not sola scriptura believers.
This Church does not interpret this scripture, or others like it, in a literal way.
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houseofsaul
Guest
1 Corinthians 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.The judgement call to be made is “does this situation fulfill the conditions of Canon Law under which it is licit to refuse communion?”
And the case in view does not fulfill the conditions.
It’s really not complicated, provided you bother to educate yourself in the law rather than be unreasonably attached to your own opinion.
One who presents himself unworthily does not harm our Lord, he harms himself. But withholding the Sacraments wrongly, wrongly harms the person denied. And so in mercy, the Church, the Bride of Christ, judges it better to risk allowing someone to receive unworthily rather than risk withholding the Grace of the Sacraments from one who should rightfully receive it.
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houseofsaul
Guest
Because I have eyes…a man with a beard, adams apple, etc in a dress and high heels…again OP said OBVIOUS male dressed as woman.Can you honestly not tell the difference between your opinion and factual reality??
Just because you think something is OBVIOUS doesn’t mean you’re right.
Why do you consider yourself infallible in matters of gender detection?
I truly pity the position our priests are in. the fact that the church needs lawyers to determine right from wrong is scary indeed, especially since Christ said HE would lead the church through the Holy Spirit not lawyers.
I do not have to agree…I stand for God not man…
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neophyte
Guest
“Some people God has designated in the church to be, first, apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then, mighty deeds; then, gifts of healing, assistance, administration, and varieties of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work mighty deeds?” *1 Corinthians 12:28-29 *1 Corinthians 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
At the moment you’re not a teacher. Act like it.
I’m done here.
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houseofsaul
Guest
I’m pretty sure the Brits would take offense to you calling their kilts skirts.Why don’t you let God sort that out?
By the way, I know a bunch of big fellas that habitually wear skirts, why don’t you pop round to the barracks of any Highland Regiment in the British Army and “admonish the sinners” there?
their customary clothing does not match the western world. the day my husband puts on a skirt for church or any other reason, we are done.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Even in this case you do not know that there is unconfessed mortal sin.Because I have eyes…a man with a beard, adams apple, etc in a dress and high heels…again OP said OBVIOUS male dressed as woman.
You do not stand for God, you stand for yourself.I do not have to agree…I stand for God not man…
The Church stands for God and is against what you stand for.
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houseofsaul
Guest
So why bother with closed communion?Even in this case you do not know that there is confessed mortal sin.
You do not stand for God, you stand for yourself.
The Church stands for God and is against what you stand for.
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BillP
Guest
So we’re back to your personal infallibility? Forgive me if I don’t credit you with such gifts.Because I have eyes…a man with a beard, adams apple, etc in a dress and high heels…again OP said OBVIOUS male dressed as woman.
Are you completely ignorant of women with endocrine problems that cause the growth of facial hair?
As far as “adam’s apples” they are actually **laryngeal prominences **and individuals of both genders possess them, while it is true that they are USUALLY more prominently visible in men than in women, they are by no means definitive for gender identification.
In fact some women are so embarrassed by theirs that they opt for cosmetic surgery!
channel4embarrassingillnesses.com/conditions/prominent-adams-apple/
So, just to satisfy your own sense of self righteousness you’re willing to risk turning such a woman away from the presence of our Lord and you come here and think SHE’s the problem???
Give me a break!!
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
That has nothing to do with this question.So why bother with closed communion?
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TrueLight
Guest
The problem is this is another gray area where Church teaching is not clear.
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houseofsaul
Guest
Yes I do see the need to deny until clarification is made that the woman has endocrine issues. The church looks to the priest as a role model.So we’re back to your personal infallibility? Forgive me if I don’t credit you with such gifts.
Are you completely ignorant of women with endocrine problems that cause the growth of facial hair?
As far as “adam’s apples” they are actually **laryngeal prominences **and individuals of both genders possess them, while it is true that they are USUALLY more prominently visible in men than in women, they are by no means definitive for gender identification.
In fact some women are so embarrassed by theirs that they opt for cosmetic surgery!
channel4embarrassingillnesses.com/conditions/prominent-adams-apple/
So, just to satisfy your own sense of self righteousness you’re willing to risk turning such a woman away from the presence of our Lord and you come here and think SHE’s the problem???
Give me a break!!
BTW, do you need the address one of those Highlander barracks? I think some of them just returned from Afghanistan and would be happy to “discuss” the sinfulness of their “cross-dressing” with you…
DO the Highlanders consider themselves to be wearing women’s clothing?
Again the OP said obvious male…obvious key word.
1 Thessalonians 5:22
1 Thessalonians 5:22
Abstain from all appearance of evil.
Or am I to take this metaphorically as well
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houseofsaul
Guest
Has everything to do with the question,cross dresser approaches communion, deny or not to deny, If one cannot make a judgment based on what they see because they do not fully know at this point, then why turn anyone away? Serve all.That has nothing to do with this question.
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stewstew03
Guest
HoS - I understand what you are saying, and I think this would turn on whether the alleged cross-dresser “obstinately persist[ed] in manifest grave sin” (See Canon 915). However, this is a matter handled between the priest and the individual.Has everything to do with the question,cross dresser approaches communion, deny or not to deny, If one cannot make a judgment based on what they see because they do not fully know at this point, then why turn anyone away? Serve all.
As you come into the Church, my hope is that you continue to fan the Catholic embers burning within your spirit, while resisting the urge to sling flaming arrows. Be strong in your faith and an example for others – that’s the best witness you can be for Christ.
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