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Philothea53
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You were still advocating for abortion in cases of rape or “health of the mother” - not a prolife position.
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catharina
Guest
holly, again, with philothea and others, my understanding was/is that you still hold the right to abortion for mothers who are pregnant due to rape and/or incest. Correct us if we’re wrong.
(That reservation of right-to-choose can never, will never be allowed by the Catholic Church. Allowing that would be akin to saying “Hmmmmmmm, well, OK, if you really really really think you need to kill your baby in utero, go ahead.”)
Also, I’ll ask again since it’s difficult to follow (understand) what might be the baseline of your faith: are you still/again Baptist? still/again Episcopalian? still or again Catholic. Both Baptists and Catholics stand against the sin of abortion for any “cause.”
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Contarini
Guest
The short answer is yes. The long answer is that our society does not have a consensus about exactly when life begins (I myself am not 100% certain that the union of sperm and egg is the moment when a human being comes into existence, rather than some later point in the process–but I think we should always err on the side of protecting life), and is unlikely to at any point in the near future, if any. So we should take a “gradualist” approach toward protecting the unborn (the overturning of Roe v. Wade is key to this), and meanwhile emphasize non-legal and non-coercive responses. This gradualist approach is what pro-abortion (I use that term advisedly, because I don’t think all pro-choice people are pro-abortion in the sense I have in mind–i.e., some really would be very happy if they could persuade all women not to have abortions) advocates fear most. That’s why Democratic candidates have to fall over themselves to prove their commitment to the sacred principle of murdering newborn children who manage to survive an abortion. If they once admitted that such children should be protected, they’d have to start asking questions about when life really begins. And the pro-choice position as it is defined today depends on not asking those questions.Should abortion be banned or not?
I personally do not think it should be banned. I support a woman’s right to choose. I am, however, pro-life. What do you think?
Edwin
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jmcrae
Guest
She reverted to Catholicism in another thread, has been to Confession, and is receiving the Eucharist.
We should probably get a Moderator to close this thread, since the question has been asked and answered.
Welcome back, Holly.
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Philothea53
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Edwin - if not at the point of fertilization - conception - then when? There is nothing in the fully grown adult that does not exist in the fertilized egg.
Conception - the term used at the point of union of egg and sperm - is the point at which a new human being is conceived, the point at which a woman is considered to be pregnant. This was always the case until the advent of abortofacient drugs when the abortion industry tried to say that killing a newly formed baby by making the endometrium incapable of sustaining the life of an implanted fertilized egg was not ending a life.
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Deacon_Ed_B
Guest
Should abortion be banned.? of course it should be banned. Any correct thinking Catholic should know that. Any correct thinking human being should know that.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B
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catharina
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Yes.Should abortion be banned.? of course it should be banned. Any correct thinking Catholic should know that. Any correct thinking human being should know that.
Prayers & Blessings
Deacon Ed B
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nestacal
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I believe that abortion is a new love of the devil.
Back when Moses was born, his mother knew that she had not enough money to care for the baby. She put the baby in a basket and pushed him out in a river that would lead her son toward a richer person who could clothe and feed her little baby.
Now that we have many new things in medecine that can prolong a life or help to end it before a little baby can even take a breath, just place yourself into your precious mothers womb and then think of what you would want your mother to do, if she could not take care of you. I would hope that my mother would give me up for adoption.
Wouldn’t you?
Back when Moses was born, his mother knew that she had not enough money to care for the baby. She put the baby in a basket and pushed him out in a river that would lead her son toward a richer person who could clothe and feed her little baby.
Now that we have many new things in medecine that can prolong a life or help to end it before a little baby can even take a breath, just place yourself into your precious mothers womb and then think of what you would want your mother to do, if she could not take care of you. I would hope that my mother would give me up for adoption.
Wouldn’t you?
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neat62
Guest
Indeed…**I believe that abortion is a new love of the devil. **
Back when Moses was born, his mother knew that she had not enough money to care for the baby. She put the baby in a basket and pushed him out in a river that would lead her son toward a richer person who could clothe and feed her little baby.
Now that we have many new things in medecine that can prolong a life or help to end it before a little baby can even take a breath, just place yourself into your precious mothers womb and then think of what you would want your mother to do, if she could not take care of you. I would hope that my mother would give me up for adoption.
Wouldn’t you?
Isn’t it incredibly sad? The safest place in the world to be, should be…in your mother’s womb. But sadly, today, there is no safe haven and even the weakest and most vulnerable among us are under attack.
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hawkeye
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Sort of hard to believe this thread is still going, "should abortion be banned or not ? umm let me think, YES, because it’s murder.
Should murdering babies be ok’d ? umm no because it’s murder.
As they gas or inject you with a lethal injection because you murdered another human being ? (child or otherwise) then why not for an aborted baby ?
Will those law-makers have to answer for it ? YES Big time before the Heavenly Throne.
Should HELL be cancelled as a GREAT MERCY of God ? I don’t know He’ll decide.
Do people that murder little innocent children through abortion go-to hell ? search me, it’s an awful chance to take.
As for me, I personally will never, not, no, sanction murdering babies through abortion, I love my grandchildren to bits, plus the thought of hell for eternity doesn’t exactly appeal to me.
Should murdering babies be ok’d ? umm no because it’s murder.
As they gas or inject you with a lethal injection because you murdered another human being ? (child or otherwise) then why not for an aborted baby ?
Will those law-makers have to answer for it ? YES Big time before the Heavenly Throne.
Should HELL be cancelled as a GREAT MERCY of God ? I don’t know He’ll decide.
Do people that murder little innocent children through abortion go-to hell ? search me, it’s an awful chance to take.
As for me, I personally will never, not, no, sanction murdering babies through abortion, I love my grandchildren to bits, plus the thought of hell for eternity doesn’t exactly appeal to me.
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Aslieas
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Okay. (Deep breath)Should abortion be banned or not?
I personally do not think it should be banned. I support a woman’s right to choose. I am, however, pro-life. What do you think?
This is where a lot of people have a hard time meeting me eye-to-eye, and I wonder what is so difficult to understand about it.
Now don’t get mad at me when I say this part, because this just leads into my point, it is not a point in and of itself: God gave us free will.
What does that mean? It does not mean we can just walk away and do whatever we want. It means we are able to think, discuss, pray, reason, and finally decide for ourselves what we are each going to do.
Free will is something each person is supposed to use.
Okay, now please envision a society in which abortion is illegal and forbidden. It sounds great, really, I really think so. But just think about the problems with forbidden acts.
When something is forbidden:
*people can feel like they are missing out on something they should be entitled to
*people find ways to do it anyway (which can be extremely dangerous)
*people lose the chance to make a responsible decision
It is better to think, discuss, pray, reason, and decide to make the right move, rather than be forced into action/inaction and have no responsibility over one’s decision.
Personal note: I hate abortion, I cry when I have to debate about it, I cried when I found out a friend was considering it, I felt horrified that I was told to consider it when I became pregnant, I think it is abominable we thought it up, and I know that no one should ever, ever have one.
But it should not be banned.
What we need is education, we need to shake the foundations of pro-abortion organizations, we need to reach out to people kindly and more effectively, so that no one will choose to have an abortion. We also need the government to remove itself from involvement in abortion legislation, to become officially and effectively neutral, so that the very personal choice of abortion becomes and remains a choice on the conscience of every individual concerned with it.
God entrusted each one of us with free will so that choices like these would be made with care, not so that groups in society would make these decisions for us.
-Aslieas
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Aslieas
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Okay, here is where you really upset me.I think that perhaps we should first define murder. Is killing a blob of tissue that may become a person if given the chance really murder?
It looks “blobbish,” sure, but what is it? It is a human! Never mind whether is has arms or legs, or even if it lacks a heartbeat: EVERY STRAND OF DNA IN THAT “BLOB” IS HUMAN! It has been human since the very instant that one sperm met one ovum and they became one being.
There is nothing else it is, or can be, or could possibly become. It is a human, and it should be pitied that people question its humanity by calling it a “blob of tissue.”
You are only a blob of tissue yourself, the difference is that you exist in a more familiar shape. Should I be questioning your humanity?
-Aslieas
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catharina
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That’s quite a soapbox you’re standing on.Okay. (Deep breath)
This is where a lot of people have a hard time meeting me eye-to-eye, and I wonder what is so difficult to understand about it.
Now don’t get mad at me when I say this part, because this just leads into my point, it is not a point in and of itself: God gave us free will.
What does that mean? It does not mean we can just walk away and do whatever we want. It means we are able to think, discuss, pray, reason, and finally decide for ourselves what we are each going to do.
Free will is something each person is supposed to use.
Okay, now please envision a society in which abortion is illegal and forbidden. It sounds great, really, I really think so. But just think about the problems with forbidden acts.
When something is forbidden:
*people can feel like they are missing out on something they should be entitled to
*people find ways to do it anyway (which can be extremely dangerous)
*people lose the chance to make a responsible decision
It is better to think, discuss, pray, reason, and decide to make the right move, rather than be forced into action/inaction and have no responsibility over one’s decision.
Personal note: I hate abortion, I cry when I have to debate about it, I cried when I found out a friend was considering it, I felt horrified that I was told to consider it when I became pregnant, I think it is abominable we thought it up, and I know that no one should ever, ever have one.
But it should not be banned.
What we need is education, we need to shake the foundations of pro-abortion organizations, we need to reach out to people kindly and more effectively, so that no one will choose to have an abortion. We also need the government to remove itself from involvement in abortion legislation, to become officially and effectively neutral, so that the very personal choice of abortion becomes and remains a choice on the conscience of every individual concerned with it.
God entrusted each one of us with free will so that choices like these would be made with care, not so that groups in society would make these decisions for us.
-Aslieas
Maybe you could consider whether abotiion should be banned AGAIN, as it always was, 'til the Nazis and the Communists decided it was a terrific option for limiting “undesirables.”
It has been NOT banned in most of the Western world for only 30 years. Maybe no one needs any laws. Drop the Ten Commandments too. Eliminate human rights. Do the ‘China-thing,’ one-child-per-family. What do you mean “choices like these?” The choice of abortion is a brand new “choice.” Until the very recent past, abortion has been one thing: a CRIME.
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Aslieas
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Well, actually, I thought that legislation regarding abortion (either allowing or disallowing) was relatively new altogether, so thanks for clearing that up for me. It helps me see the reason to ban it a little better.
I don’t understand why you think I have feelings against human rights or the laws of God. I am also very confused as to why you think I might be in favor of “the China thing.” Maybe that part wasn’t directed at my post, but at the abortion issue in general? If the “China thing” was directed at my post, please tell me how it fits in.
As I said in my original post, abortion is an abomination and no one should have one. I also made a very angry post directly after my first one (I kind of lost my temper, really) that was very much for human rights, specifically the rights of a barely formed human embryo. I hope that this clears up any misunderstanding of how I feel about abortion - which is murder, you are correct.
About laws: I agree wholeheartedly with following the laws of God. No problem there.
I don’t think that the government should make laws regarding abortion for several more reasons than I originally listed. I did not include them because I felt they would weaken, rather than strengthen, my argument. Here are two of them:
1)If we ban abortion, more people will get together to legalize it again
2)If we ban abortion, people will engage in extremely dangerous secret abortions, and because that has happened in my own family and it has caused a lot of pain I don’t want to see it happen again.
What do I mean “choices like these?” Understand what I mean by “choice:” the law says to drive on the right side of the road, and it is my choice to follow that law; I sit down to dinner, and it is my choice to eat or not eat. That is “choice.”
Now, when I say “choices like these” I mean choices that hit extremely close to home, like the choice to reign in my temper or let it loose, or like the choice to send my child to Catholic school, or even like the choice to become an organ donor. “Choices like these” are choices that directly affect a local group of people, and only indirectly affect the entire populous.
I will state my original point more concisely: by making it legally impossible for someone to make the wrong decision (I am only talking about abortion, not other things!) we are a)taking away their ability to have merit in making the right decision; and b)demolishing all hope and faith that a person faced with the decision will make the right decision.
I have read many (though not all) of the posts on this thread, and it just looks like a long stream of hopelessness. The idea that people simply will not make the right choice, and so we must force them onto the proper course, seems to be rampant.
God gave us rules and he gave us free will. Free will is each singular person’s gift from God. We need to use our gift wisely and follow the laws God set out for us. I believe we can do it. Do you?
P.S. Yes, I suppose I am on a soapbox, but then again I have never been able to fully express my opinion on this matter before, so I felt that I should go ahead and get it all out. Aren’t we all on soapboxes here?
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neat62
Guest
Free will doesn’t mean we abandon all laws…basically what you are advocating is a form of anarchy. Think of it this way…according to your “theory” I should be able to go out and murder my neighbor and then state “it is my free will” to do whatever I so choose.Well, actually, I thought that legislation regarding abortion (either allowing or disallowing) was relatively new altogether, so thanks for clearing that up for me. It helps me see the reason to ban it a little better.
I don’t understand why you think I have feelings against human rights or the laws of God. I am also very confused as to why you think I might be in favor of “the China thing.” Maybe that part wasn’t directed at my post, but at the abortion issue in general? If the “China thing” was directed at my post, please tell me how it fits in.
As I said in my original post, abortion is an abomination and no one should have one. I also made a very angry post directly after my first one (I kind of lost my temper, really) that was very much for human rights, specifically the rights of a barely formed human embryo. I hope that this clears up any misunderstanding of how I feel about abortion - which is murder, you are correct.
About laws: I agree wholeheartedly with following the laws of God. No problem there.
I don’t think that the government should make laws regarding abortion for several more reasons than I originally listed. I did not include them because I felt they would weaken, rather than strengthen, my argument. Here are two of them:
1)If we ban abortion, more people will get together to legalize it again
2)If we ban abortion, people will engage in extremely dangerous secret abortions, and because that has happened in my own family and it has caused a lot of pain I don’t want to see it happen again.
What do I mean “choices like these?” Understand what I mean by “choice:” the law says to drive on the right side of the road, and it is my choice to follow that law; I sit down to dinner, and it is my choice to eat or not eat. That is “choice.”
Now, when I say “choices like these” I mean choices that hit extremely close to home, like the choice to reign in my temper or let it loose, or like the choice to send my child to Catholic school, or even like the choice to become an organ donor. “Choices like these” are choices that directly affect a local group of people, and only indirectly affect the entire populous.
I will state my original point more concisely: by making it legally impossible for someone to make the wrong decision (I am only talking about abortion, not other things!) we are a)taking away their ability to have merit in making the right decision; and b)demolishing all hope and faith that a person faced with the decision will make the right decision.
I have read many (though not all) of the posts on this thread, and it just looks like a long stream of hopelessness. The idea that people simply will not make the right choice, and so we must force them onto the proper course, seems to be rampant.
God gave us rules and he gave us free will. Free will is each singular person’s gift from God. We need to use our gift wisely and follow the laws God set out for us. I believe we can do it. Do you?
P.S. Yes, I suppose I am on a soapbox, but then again I have never been able to fully express my opinion on this matter before, so I felt that I should go ahead and get it all out. Aren’t we all on soapboxes here?
As for “more women will have secret abortions” that is an absolute FALSE premise promoted by those within the pro-abortion camp.
Abortion was banned and not allowed for THOUSANDS of years…the fact that people want to murder innocent little ones for the sake of their own selfish reasons, will not EVER be right and should NEVER be accepted.
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mapleoak
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Free will doesn’t determine whether something is morally acceptable or not.
Each person is supposed to submit their will to the Will of God.
Yes it would be really great. That is an understatement.
I can’t seem to think of any problems resulting from being forbidden to murder our fellow brethren.
We can’t go next door and shoot our neighbor. We are sure missing out.
Since there are people who go next door and shoot their neighbor, we might as well make it legal. It would be a lot safer for the criminal (err, law abiding citizen).
Murder should be legalized. That way people will have the chance to make their own responsible decision in the matter.
The falacies in your reasoning are derived from the falacy in your opening statement, where you reason that free will determines morality.
And ironically you will do nothing to protect the lives of those who have no say in the matter. Those who are ruthlessly killed and torn apart and their lives cut short. This is the classic “I am personally opposed to abortion, but don’t want to force my views on others” line, presented in a round about way.
Why should murder be legal? Why should scalding people in a brine bath be legal? Why should sucking someones brains out through a cannula be okay? Why should torturous dismemberment until death ensues be legal?
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mapleoak
Guest
Because you made it clear that “abortion should not be banned” which is the same as “murder should not be banned” which is the same as “EVERYTHING should be legal and everyone just decides for themselves what to do”.
The old “don’t try to refute anything I say, because see I took your side” tactic.
So you agree that abortion is murder. Then you should have no problem with it being illegal.
And part of what God expects from us (and thereby following His laws) is to protect those less fortunate than OURSELVES which especially includes those who are least among us. That means defending the lives of the unborn.
More nonsense.
You have had a dangerous, secret, and illegal abortion happen within your own family? Of course it was not only dangerous, but lethal to at least one person. There you go, destroyed life being justification to keep something legal.
Why would you single such philosophy to apply to only abortion? Why is not good enough for everything else? If it cannot be applied to everything else, it is flawed reasoning.
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jmcrae
Guest
Abortion was common among the Greeks and the Romans until they converted to Christianity, at which time the Apostles and their successors forbade it. The Jews up to that time had always forbidden abortion, along with chemical and barrier birth control. These Jewish prohibitions carried over into Christianity, where they have remained in the Catholic Church even until now.
Protestants are reverting to the pagan Greek and Roman philosophies of population control over a gradual period from the 1930s until now - barrier methods of birth control became acceptable in the 1930s, chemical birth control became accepted by them in the 1960s, early abortion “for the mother’s health” became legal in the 1970s, and today, women can have abortions for any reason at all, right up until the day of birth - as long as you kill your child before she is completely out of the birth canal, you are “exercising your choice” - as soon as the child is clear of the birth canal, though, if you kill her, you go to jail for the rest of your life, for the murder of a human being.
It’s only a matter of time before child exposure becomes acceptable, too (which was a common practice of the pagan Greeks and Romans) - and if you don’t believe it, consider that in the 1930s when barrier birth control became acceptable, nobody could have imagined that partial birth abortion would ever become acceptable, either.
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catharina
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Great post.
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catharina
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Abortion acceptable? A personal necessity?
How about rape and arson?
Some families might be really distressed if one of their loved ones was arrested for rape or for arson. Wouldn’t it be more convenient to abolish those crimes and let each individual and each family reach its own conclusions as to whether a rape or an arson was necessary for the well-being of the perpetrator? Abortion legalized? No ban re-instated? Never crimnalized again? Then maybe society should just ease up and de-criminalize rape and arson, oh! and terrorism too.
It’s only logical.
How about rape and arson?
Some families might be really distressed if one of their loved ones was arrested for rape or for arson. Wouldn’t it be more convenient to abolish those crimes and let each individual and each family reach its own conclusions as to whether a rape or an arson was necessary for the well-being of the perpetrator? Abortion legalized? No ban re-instated? Never crimnalized again? Then maybe society should just ease up and de-criminalize rape and arson, oh! and terrorism too.
It’s only logical.
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