Should alcohol consumption be allowed at parish meetings?

[THurifer2]

It seems that possibly what should dictate this is: what is the cultural norm in the community that this is taking place? Because let’s face it, the consumption or non consumption of alcohol is basically a culturally driven affair.

The Protestants (Fundamentalists mostly) will swear that in order to be a good Christian, you can’t drink any alcohol. But we know that this is not a true spiritual standard, but a cultural one, their culture.

If a parish is in a community that is very sensitive to or opposed to the consumption of alcohol, maybe in order to be a good witness to charity, they should consider against it, for the sake of Christ and their weaker brothers.

But, if the parish is in a community where the consumption of alcohol is not considered taboo or inappropriate, then abstaining from alcohol at social events should not be forced.

St. Paul gives us tons of advice concerning the difference between liberty in Christ and license, between freedom and abstainence for Christs sake or the sake of a weaker brother.

Common sense should prevail in these matters. Now if we can just find some in the average group of people…

That is a very good point…people who criticise heavy drinking are justified but many people perhaps even cat are oblivious to the fact that alcohol consumption often plays a common part of many cultures that associate with Catholicsim. That is what is lacking with protestantism…most often it is a culturally sterile faith and nationality doesnt commonly show up in protestantism with the exception of a few Lutherans (who drink) and the dutch reformed. Simple criticism of alcohol consumpiton certainly offends those who come from the clanish cultural backgrounds that commonly hail from Catholicism. Irish Catholics, German Catholics, Polish Catholics, Greek Catholics, Slovak Catholics etc. come from a cultures that embibing is part of who they are. Its almost as though some live in a bubble and are oblivious to the fact that pointing their teetotaling fingers is more than calling an individual to the carpet…it could come across as an indictment to a whole cultural group.

 

[dessert]

Believe me, I know I don’t plan on suggesting it to our pastor any time soon!
I wouldn’t have expected that either - what a surprise! I know our parish is capable of throwing a rip-roaringly good party, but at a movie night for kids? Wow. I’m a bit surprised at that one.
Our Slovak brothers and sisters sure know how to pray properly, don’t they?
Thanks… I really wish I could bring him to our parish for socials, but I can’t. He nearly died of alcoholism, and though he’s been sober for a number of years, he can’t be around the stuff without being tempted by it. I’d love to take him to our men’s club, as there are tons of great guys in it, but I can’t, because I understand they drink at most of their meetings. There goes another opportunity for me to encourage him to reconcile with the Church

Years ago, my father was released from an extended hospital stay, and came to stay with myself and a roommate as he recovered. My roommate had a large, full bottle of whiskey, and my dad finished it while we were away at work. And that was after the doctor told him that he’d most likely die if he were to take up drinking again. Yup, for some people, it really is that serious of a temptation.

I’m sorry too to hear this in your family.
My BIL is an alcoholic but recovered some and he has a hard time he often takes his own soda to functions and is very sociable though. It is just a wekness he says so he doesn’t drink any and him and his wife met at an AA meeting. It is a serious problem and the ones drinking for that feeling are the mmost vulnerable.
It is an addiction to a drug and it seems there is everyone has someone they know that is addicted.
Our oldest son had a problem starting out at 13 and went through a rough life, now he is 33, he drinks if he is lonely but he is better now, I think he also has problems with being diabetic but will not see a doctor about it so there can be a lot going on, he has not gone to AA meetings.

 

[THurifer2]

I’m sorry too to hear this in your family.
My BIL is an alcoholic but recovered some and he has a hard time he often takes his own soda to functions and is very sociable though. It is just a wekness he says so he doesn’t drink any and him and his wife met at an AA meeting. It is a serious problem and the ones drinking for that feeling are the mmost vulnerable.
It is an addiction to a drug and it seems there is everyone has someone they know that is addicted.
Our oldest son had a problem starting out at 13 and went through a rough life, now he is 33, he drinks if he is lonely but he is better now, I think he also has problems with being diabetic but will not see a doctor about it so there can be a lot going on, he has not gone to AA meetings.

Praying for you son.

 

[Jeanette_L]

That is a very good point…people who criticise heavy drinking are justified but many people perhaps even cat are oblivious to the fact that alcohol consumption often plays a common part of many cultures that associate with Catholicsim. That is what is lacking with protestantism…most often it is a culturally sterile faith and nationality doesnt commonly show up in protestantism with the exception of a few Lutherans (who drink) and the dutch reformed. Simple criticism of alcohol consumpiton certainly offends those who come from the clanish cultural backgrounds that commonly hail from Catholicism. Irish Catholics, German Catholics, Polish Catholics, Greek Catholics, Slovak Catholics etc. come from a cultures that embibing is part of who they are. Its almost as though some live in a bubble and are oblivious to the fact that pointing their teetotaling fingers is more than calling an individual to the carpet…it could come across as an indictment to a whole cultural group.

What strikes me as a new Catholic, coming from a Fundamentalist/Evangelical background, (with all it’s good and bad) what I appreciate about the Catholic faith in what I have studied so far - the fact that it has almost always tried to absorb cultures that it comes into contact with, not automatically wipe them out and replace them with something else.

In other words, it has always observed the culture and allowed a culture to remain, at least the good parts so that the people are not just a cookie cutter replica of a people from the other side of the planet, but retain their own uniqueness.

I somehow feel we are talking about the same thing in essence here, that the Church is not there to change a culture per se, as long as there is nothing inherently evil about it, but that it encourages each culture to thrive within the Church as a whole.

So this issue about alcohol is essentially a cultural one, and the Church is not in the habit of dictating against a cultural standard that is not essentially evil.

On the other hand, it can respond to the changes in a cultural climate and adjust itself accordingly, and we do see a shift in our culture when it comes to public alcohol consumption, or rather I should say, we see a lot of mixed signals, who will win out is still up in the air.

Hope I didn’t make it more confusing. Sometimes what goes on inside the head doesn’t translate as well in writing. :hypno:

 

[benedictgal]

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a22/Paednoch/pope1.jpg
QUOTE]

I think that this picture is worth more than 1,000 words. Hey, the Holy Father is very human and very German. I personally don’t drink, except for Dr. Pepper (the national drink of Texas, which, by the way, is also the proud home of Shiner Boch). However, I will partake of some sweet liquore (I like Fra Angelico and that black and white sweet drink, as well as the Godiva stuff).

To those who are quick to condemn partaking in libation, remember, that if it’s done in a responsible manner (which means also procuring a designated driver), there is nothing scandalous. Does seeing then-Cardinal Ratzinger hoist a beer stein scandalize you? There are other pictures of him partaking of his native Bavaria’s favorite drink. Jesus drank wine. The Pharisees called him a drunkard and a glutton.

Oddly enough, one of the signs of the Messianic age was that the wine of gladness would flow. Wine, according to the prophets, gladdens the heart. As Thurifer said, Jesus ushered in his ministry by changing water into wine; thus, he, at His Mother’s insistance, ushered in the Messainic age by letting the wine of gladness flow. Furthermore, wine was one of the elements that Jesus used at the Last Supper. He transformed the wine into this Blood as the New Convenant.

 

[marci]

I grew up in a catholic family on both sides, Irish on my mother’s and Croatian on my Father’s. Alcohol was ALWAYS present at all family functions. Birthdays, Baptisms, First Comunions, Weddings, and celabrations “just because”.

Europeans have a very different view of alcohol than Americans. And catholics from different cultures definately view this as a part of family and community life. The same is true for the Mexican culture. I live in a perdominately Hispanic region and annual church Fiestas always have alcohol along with Tamales and Gorditas (I wait all year for those). And yes, children are present.

In the family and community I grew up in, children were always present at parties where alcohol was served, they are not separated from our celebrations. In the Mexican culture, it is not uncommon to see people out at restaurants at midnight with children in tow, laughing, being loud, eating and drinking.

I love this about my family and my community. Church, family life, and social celebrations are not separated. I think that there is a spice to life with these people. They like to drink, eat, and even are boisterous at times, but they are loving and accepting. Though they may not have much, they would give you the shirt off their backs, every last “smelly” one of them. (to quote an earlier post)

 

[Jamie_Burns]

There are a lot of interesting cultural and moral arguments here, but I think the primary issue is liability. Would you rather your parish spend $100,000 and more in legal fees and medical costs for someone injured in an autombile accident, or use that $100,000 towards retiring your capital campaign?

I stand by my statement that alcohol can be as dangerous as a gun. Yes it is the user that causes the injury, but would you hand a loaded firearm to just anyone? Or would you hand it to someone who has been taught gun safety? It is the same with alcohol, particularly in service.

Parish events are staffed by volunteers, not professionals. You cannot count on a volunteer to safely serve alcoholic spirits. The reason this is important is that, as the experts will tell you, one of the first inhibitions to be diminished when most subjects drink alcohol is the sense of how much alcohol is “too much”. A standard “pour” of spirits 1 1/4 oz of 90 proof liquor is 16.65 millilitres of pure alcohol. A 100 pound woman will take about an hour to metabolize that. If that woman has around 27 millilitres in her body not yet metabolized, she will be over .8% blood alcohol which most states consider to be impaired and illegal to drive.
And even if one is under the legal limit, reaction times, co-ordination, and judgement are affected.

Our churches are financially strapped enough without incurring these liability risks.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

Over the years, I’ve seen too many people wreck up their lives and the lives of OTHERS because of alcohol for me to have any tolerance at all for it. My great-aunt and uncle were killed in the middle of the day by a stinkin’ drunk driver who walked away uninjured from the crash. I’ve seen families split up because one of the spouses drank and partied. I know people that haven’t spoken to their parents in decades because of alcohol abuse during their childhood. I’ve worked with kids who were permanently retarded due to fetal alcohol syndrome. I’ve done labs on many people who were terribly injured in drunken driving crashes. I’ve visited the Pacific Garden Mission in Chicago and been introduced to former doctors, college professors, and other working people who ended up in the gutter because of alcohol abuse.

Again- those who drink versus those who are drunk.

Alcohol is a factor in many crimes of passion, including the rape of women.

Power is what drives rape.

And you say it’s GOOD? I agree that the substance itself is not evil, but it’s a terrible gamble to take. According to the Pacific Garden Mission experts (who have worked in the streets of Chicago for decades), two percent of all people who drink (not two percent of alcoholics) will end up on Skid Row. Is that a chance worth taking?

And 40-50% of people who go to school don’t graduate, should we do away with school?

And who can predict whether a feel-good buzz will impair judgement enough to get you to climb into bed with a perfect stranger, or drive your car into a schoolbus, or simply say something to your spouse or kids that hurts them too bad to forgive?

Again, drunkeness versus drinking.

It’s just not necessary to drink to have fun. There are so many other harmless ways to get high.

Good choice of words

I personally hate being around people who drink. They act silly, talk too fast or slow, stand too close to me, and laugh (or cry) at nothing. They smell bad. They tell secrets that shouldn’t be told. In fact, my father used to go to bars with his buddies; the bartender would give him free food because he was willing to drive his drunken buds home. And the bonus–my father would learn things about these friends that they really shouldn’t have told him, and then afterwards, **he had a “bargaining chip” to use against them when they realized that HE knew something that they didn’t want certain other people to know. **

So blackmail is better than drinking?

And I assure you that I don’t attend functions where alcohol is served, so just go ahead and have fun without me.

Then don’t ever attend a majority Slavonic, German, Irish, or whole host of other cultural Catholic Parishes, because it is at most of the events.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

Those who have eating disorders will probably avoid the cookies and the brownies.

As one with an eating disorder, cookies and brownies are the bane of my existence, as they are for many others, because I (personally, perhaps not others) will binge on them and then purge it all. So, should we outlaw refreshments as well?

I would rather have liquor, thank you very much.

 

[THurifer2]

As one with an eating disorder, cookies and brownies are the bane of my existence, as they are for many others, because I (personally, perhaps not others) will binge on them and then purge it all. So, should we outlaw refreshments as well?

I would rather have liquor, thank you very much.

Thank you Patienceandlove that is why I mentioned it. Unfortuantely man do not recognize eating disorders as they do with alcoholism. Now I am sure some will say you cant get behind the wheel after eating a pan of brownies and kill someone…but a High School friend of mine has a wife who has nearly died a few times due to her eating disorder.

 

[Jeanette_L]

As one with an eating disorder, cookies and brownies are the bane of my existence, as they are for many others, because I (personally, perhaps not others) will binge on them and then purge it all. So, should we outlaw refreshments as well?

I would rather have liquor, thank you very much.

Thank you Patienceandlove that is why I mentioned it. Unfortuantely man do not recognize eating disorders as they do with alcoholism. Now I am sure some will say you cant get behind the wheel after eating a pan of brownies and kill someone…but a High School friend of mine has a wife who has nearly died a few times due to her eating disorder.

It’s interesting, but this whole debate against the consumption of alcohol and the Church’s lack of restraining it is actually an old form of the Heresy of Manicheanism, which later was again found in Albigensianism, whose yet later spinoff was Puritanism - which we still battle with in today’s Protestant culture. It is an imbalance in the view of evil and an imbalance in our response to the created natural world and our participation in it.

And the attack is always on physical human activity (whose end is always the attack on the Sacrimental life), of which most any pleasure is suspect, especially in view of man’s fallen nature and his battle to remain moderate in all good things.

The Church’s view has always been to encourage the virtue of temperance, which means moderation, in lieu of abstinance, other than periodic fasting, because any other would be a disordered reaction against what is not intrisically evil, and the Church also knows where the heresy inevitably ends up - attacking the Church herself.

The Church’s wisdom seems to always trump our sometimes disordered instincts to be extreme in these and many matters.

You can see from this thread how this progresses. We started out with a legitimate concern about the possible insensitivity of consuming alcohol within a certain distance of an educational activity for children.

We progressed into an all out attack on the consumption of alcohol and on all who consume it as being somehow less than godly because of it (and I’m being generous). This is how whole movements progress. We just witnessed it in microcosm.

 

[THurifer2]

It’s interesting, but this whole debate against the consumption of alcohol and the Church’s lack of restraining it is actually an old form of the Heresy of Manicheanism, which later was again found in Albigensianism, whose yet later spinoff was Puritanism - which we still battle with in today’s Protestant culture. It is an imbalance in the view of evil and an imbalance in our response to the created natural world and our participation in it.

And the attack is always on physical human activity (whose end is always the attack on the Sacrimental life), of which most any pleasure is suspect, especially in view of man’s fallen nature and his battle to remain moderate in all good things.

The Church’s view has always been to encourage the virtue of temperance, which means moderation, in lieu of abstinance, other than periodic fasting, because any other would be a disordered reaction against what is not intrisically evil, and the Church also knows where the heresy inevitably ends up - attacking the Church herself.

The Church’s wisdom seems to always trump our sometimes disordered instincts to be extreme in these and many matters.

You can see from this thread how this progresses. We started out with a legitimate concern about the possible insensitivity of consuming alcohol within a certain distance of an educational activity for children.

We progressed into an all out attack on the consumption of alcohol and on all who consume it as being somehow less than godly because of it (and I’m being generous). This is how whole movements progress. We just witnessed it in microcosm.

that was very very well said…:bowdown: I wish I could have put it that eloquantly.

 

[chewchoo]

that was very very well said…:bowdown: I wish I could have put it that eloquantly.

ditto

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I never had a problem with alcoholic beverages being served at appropriate parties and celebrations, at parishes. Our pastor would have a thank you party for the workers of the parish fall fair, in the rectory. He had beer and wine. No problem.

What I had a problem with was my old parish. They had a School and the PTA was disgraceful. They had alcoholic beverages at all of their dances and events and it got ugly on several occasions. The straw that broke the camels back for me was when they started running Las Vegas nights and October Feast, where alcoholic beverages and gambling were the features.

Anyway, God took care of that problem and the school is now closed and hence, no PTA.

Jim

 

[marci]

It’s interesting, but this whole debate against the consumption of alcohol and the Church’s lack of restraining it is actually an old form of the Heresy of Manicheanism, which later was again found in Albigensianism, whose yet later spinoff was Puritanism - which we still battle with in today’s Protestant culture. It is an imbalance in the view of evil and an imbalance in our response to the created natural world and our participation in it.

And the attack is always on physical human activity (whose end is always the attack on the Sacrimental life), of which most any pleasure is suspect, especially in view of man’s fallen nature and his battle to remain moderate in all good things.

You took the words right out of my brain, since they would never have made it to my mouth

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

Alcoholic beverages, in moderation, IMO is a gift from God to be enjoyed.

Times when it would be approriate in a parish setting NOT confined to the rectory or convent (again my opinion):

• Kof C evening or weekend meeting.
  *CDA evening or weekend meeting.
• Adult or mixed age Christmas party, with proper carding and enacting dram shop laws.
• Easter party, ditto.
• Parish festival or group fund raiser.
• Parish picnic.

Times it would not be appropriate (again, my opinion):

• CCD/RELED/ PSR Christmas party.
• Youth group meeting or activity.
• Girl Scouts/ BSA activity (and those organizations forbid it now).
• Business meetings, even if the parish finances are in disarray.

One of my great-grandfathers was an alcoholic. My maternal grandparents were alcoholics. My uncle is an alcoholic. My adult daughter is an alcoholic.

Yet, I can have ONE drink and be fine. Why should I suffer because of these people? Should I forbid everybody simple carbohydrates because I have a problem with them, as somebody as already suggested?

Parish centers will normally schedule as many meetings as they can for as many rooms as they can. So what if CCD is across the hall from a party serving alcohol?

I also have to say, I think events with alcohol are bigger money makers in this neck of the woods than the beg-a-thon thing some evangelical is peddling for private schools!

 

[PatienceAndLove]

The point here is moderation- and not the Puritanical belief that all pleasures of the flesh are sins.

Yes, Churches should provide alcoholic beverages at parish get tog ethers.

HOWEVER- meetings are different. But the OP did not tell us if the incident in questions was in fact a meeting or a ministry party. If that ministry decided to have a party, for whatever reason, they can have alcohol. And if children were present, I am betting it was a party.

And to the person who said she can’t take her father to events because he is a recovering alcoholic- have you asked him how he feels attending events that serve alcohol? He is the one who is recovering, not you. He needs to make his own decisions. If he decides to go, but then leaves because of temptation (if he has it at all), then let him. It is his decision, and you should not exclude him from parish events based on a single factor.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

It’s interesting, but this whole debate against the consumption of alcohol and the Church’s lack of restraining it is actually an old form of the Heresy of Manicheanism, which later was again found in Albigensianism, whose yet later spinoff was Puritanism - which we still battle with in today’s Protestant culture. It is an imbalance in the view of evil and an imbalance in our response to the created natural world and our participation in it.

And the attack is always on physical human activity (whose end is always the attack on the Sacrimental life), of which most any pleasure is suspect, especially in view of man’s fallen nature and his battle to remain moderate in all good things.

The Church’s view has always been to encourage the virtue of temperance, which means moderation, in lieu of abstinance, other than periodic fasting, because any other would be a disordered reaction against what is not intrisically evil, and the Church also knows where the heresy inevitably ends up - attacking the Church herself.

The Church’s wisdom seems to always trump our sometimes disordered instincts to be extreme in these and many matters.:newidea:

You can see from this thread how this progresses. We started out with a legitimate concern about the possible insensitivity of consuming alcohol within a certain distance of an educational activity for children.

We progressed into an all out attack on the consumption of alcohol and on all who consume it as being somehow less than godly because of it (and I’m being generous). This is how whole movements progress. We just witnessed it in microcosm.

I am so impressed, I might cry.

 

[puzzleannie]

Times it would not be appropriate (again, my opinion):
*

• Business meetings, even if the parish finances are in disarray.

. . .
Parish centers will normally schedule as many meetings as they can for as many rooms as they can. So what if CCD is across the hall from a party serving alcohol?

!

good one!
DH reminds me that parishes in his NW Indiana childhood home ran buses to the Notre Dame games where the kegs were cracked open as soon as the bus left the parish parking lot in the week hours. Those excursions included families.

the question posed by OP is not so much about the morality of drinking alcohol per se–and that has been discussed before on the morality forum, bottom line it is not immoral for one who is of age and has not contraindication to drink moderately.

the question is about appropriateness at a parish meeting. the answer lies in the standards of the diocese, and its insurers. The child safety policies now in effect in most dioceses prohibit alchohol from being served at any even where there are children or youth. The insurer of the diocese or parish, and in many cases state or local law, also set limits, so to answer OPs question, what is the policy and the civil law that governs in your area?

yes many parish centers are multi use buildings, but that does not give any one group using the facility the right to disrup other functions that are also going on at the same time.

 

[RosaLydia]

I believe insurers require an extra fee is required to have alcohol at the parish (I am not sure about BYOB).

This is another reason I do not think is appropriate to have alcohol - Our parish is constantly in the negative cash flow, Why spend the extra money required to insure for alcohol?