Should an Eastern Catholic infant receive Communion in a Roman Catholic church?

[mardukm]

Dear apb92,

You’ve made a very unfair assumption here towards ConstantineTG…Just because I am not Latin Catholic does not make me any less knowledgeable of the Latin Church. As an analogy, it’s like saying that a Protestant is unqualified to teach a Scripture course to Catholics at a Catholic university. Just because the professor is Protestant does not mean the professor cannot teach the orthodox Catholic understanding of Scripture.

Thanks for your comments. Again, my statement that I do not want him teaching my kids Latin Catholicism is not based on the fact that he is Ukrainian Catholic (though I’m not sure if he is formally a Ukrainian Catholic). I’m basing it on his poor presentation of Latin Catholicism over the course of many months. This thread evinces just one example. To the OP’s question of how an Eastern Catholic infant can receive in a Latin Catholic church, his response was “they don’t receive.” But that is an incorrect response to an inquirer, because that is not what the Canons of the Latin Church state.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[ConstantineTG]

Dear apb92,

Thanks for your comments. Again, my statement that I do not want him teaching my kids Latin Catholicism is not based on the fact that he is Ukrainian Catholic (though I’m not sure if he is formally a Ukrainian Catholic). I’m basing it on his poor presentation of Latin Catholicism over the course of many months. This thread evinces just one example. To the OP’s question of how an Eastern Catholic infant can receive in a Latin Catholic church, his response was “they don’t receive.” But that is an incorrect response to an inquirer, because that is not what the Canons of the Latin Church state.

Blessings,
Marduk

I am staunchly on the side of respecting the particular traditions of the parish you are in, regardless what your own traditions are.

Also, it is only your opinion that I have “misrepresented” Latin teaching. Besides, do you think I will be discussion interpretation of Canon Law or the history of the Papacy with grade 2 students?

To add, marduk. Do you think Latins should be allowed to receive kneeling in the Eastern Catholic Church? For the same reason I would not have my kids receive in a Roman Catholic Church regardless of my canonical enrollment, I expect Latins not to kneel for the Anaphora or Communion when visiting one of our parishes, nor to say the Filioque, nor to seek a confessional to have their confessions heard (though chances are the parish they may visit is Latinized enough to have a confessional).

 

[CDB1718]

Scandal is possible today because the faithful and others not in the Catholic Church are not well catechized or do not understand the sacramental disciplines of the various Catholic Churches.
ByzCathCantor;9869291:

Exactly - that

is the scandal

The scandal is a priest violating an innocent fully initiated person’s right to receive the sacraments out of a rationalized fear that his parishioners have not been taught and can’t understand the church’s teachings and practices.

The scandal is perpetuated by denying the sacraments and perpetuating the ignorance. It is corrected by administering the sacrament as he’s obligated and educating his parish as he’s obligated. Most priests take this in stride and have no problems addressing both issues.

 

[mardukm]

I am staunchly on the side of respecting the particular traditions of the parish you are in, regardless what your own traditions are.

That is not up to you, but to the local pastor. Your response to the OP was incorrect.

Also, it is only your opinion that I have “misrepresented” Latin teaching.

You have done so repeatedly, just as you did in your response to the OP. But this is not the thread to repeat those instances.

Besides, do you think I will be discussion interpretation of Canon Law or the history of the Papacy with grade 2 students?

You’d be surprised what kinds of questions kids of that age will ask, from my experience. But the kids don’t make the decision to enroll themselves. If parents hear the way you represent Latin Catholicism here in the CAF, I’m sure they would be very resistant to have you teach their kids.

To add, marduk. Do you think Latins should be allowed to receive kneeling in the Eastern Catholic Church?

My pov has nothing to do with it. It is the responsibility of the pastor to make the decision and to educate his parish. But more importantly, the practice of kneeling is not on the same order as the reception of the Sacrament. Reception of the Most Holy Body and Blood is seen as NECESSARY by Oriental and Eastern Catholics, even for infants, for the sake of their spiritual growth. The comparison is poor.

For the same reason I would not have my kids receive in a Roman Catholic Church regardless of my canonical enrollment, I expect Latins not to kneel for the Anaphora or Communion when visiting one of our parishes, nor to say the Filioque, nor to seek a confessional to have their confessions heard (though chances are the parish they may visit is Latinized enough to have a confessional).

Our expectations should be tempered by mercy and humility at all times towards those who may be ignorant of local traditions. Besides, generally, a local Eastern or Oriental Catholic congregation is intimate enough so that the congregants will know if someone of a different Tradition is present and will make allowances mentally for these visitors.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[mardukm]

Dear CDB,

The scandal is a priest violating an innocent fully initiated person’s right to receive the sacraments

out of a rationalized fear that his parishioners have not been taught and can’t understand the church’s teachings and practices.

I disagree. It is not a “rationalized fear” but It is altogether proper for a pastor to assess and be concerned for the welfare of his parish.

The scandal is perpetuated by denying the sacraments and perpetuating the ignorance. It is corrected by administering the sacrament as he’s obligated and educating his parish as he’s obligated. Most priests take this in stride and have no problems addressing both issues.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[ConstantineTG]

That is not up to you, but to the local pastor. Your response to the OP was incorrect.

You have done so repeatedly, just as you did in your response to the OP. But this is not the thread to repeat those instances.

You’d be surprised what kinds of questions kids of that age will ask, from my experience. But the kids don’t make the decision to enroll themselves. If parents hear the way you represent Latin Catholicism here in the CAF, I’m sure they would be very resistant to have you teach their kids.

My pov has nothing to do with it. It is the responsibility of the pastor to make the decision and to educate his parish. But more importantly, the practice of kneeling is not on the same order as the reception of the Sacrament. Reception of the Most Holy Body and Blood is seen as NECESSARY by Oriental and Eastern Catholics, even for infants, for the sake of their spiritual growth. The comparison is poor.

Our expectations should be tempered by mercy and humility at all times towards those who may be ignorant of local traditions. Besides, generally, a local Eastern or Oriental Catholic congregation is intimate enough so that the congregants will know if someone of a different Tradition is present and will make allowances mentally for these visitors.

Blessings,
Marduk

So you are suggesting that we each should bend over backwards for one another regardless of what each of our traditions and disciplines are, regardless if it scandalizes other people or if it is even appropriate for each other’s parish?

 

[mardukm]

So you are suggesting that we each should bend over backwards for one another regardless of what each of our traditions and disciplines are, regardless if it scandalizes other people or if it is even appropriate for each other’s parish?

I just think it is part of the Christian ethos, particularly the Eastern/Oriental Christian ethos, to not immediately have a critical attitude of someone who does something differently.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[ConstantineTG]

I just think it is part of the Christian ethos, particularly the Eastern/Oriental Christian ethos, to not immediately have a critical attitude of someone who does something differently.

Blessings,
Marduk

It’s not being critical, it’s about preserving one’s own traditions. Sure, the visitor wants to kneel. Later on we’d tear down our Iconostas, and then later our priests would be facing the people. It’s how all this mess gets started y’know. You give people an inch and they’d take a lightyear.

 

[mardukm]

It’s not being critical, it’s about preserving one’s own traditions. Sure, the visitor wants to kneel. Later on we’d tear down our Iconostas, and then later our priests would be facing the people. It’s how all this mess gets started y’know. You give people an inch and they’d take a lightyear.

You’re unnecessarily extrapolating (I notice you do that a lot – you have great zeal, I’ll grant you that). We’re just talking about how to treat visitors, right?

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[ConstantineTG]

You’re unnecessarily extrapolating (I notice you do that a lot – you have great zeal, I’ll grant you that). We’re just talking about how to treat visitors, right?

Blessings,
Marduk

We show visitors who we are, not try to let them do whatever they want with our parishes. And it should go both ways, which is my response to the OP is what I said. If anyone is EC and visiting an RC, it’s best not to even try to have your younger kids receive Communion. Its one or two Sundays anyway. If they will be going to an RC parish regularly, then espouse the spirituality of the RCC.

 

[5Loaves]

My pov has nothing to do with it. It is the responsibility of the pastor to make the decision and to educate his parish.

I agree, and I would expect the pastor to agree as well.

Our expectations should be tempered by mercy and humility at all times towards those who may be ignorant of local traditions. Besides, generally, a local Eastern or Oriental Catholic congregation is intimate enough so that the congregants will know if someone of a different Tradition is present and will make allowances mentally for these visitors.

Blessings,
Marduk

We have a woman from another Eastern Catholic Church (who is also an immigrant from another country) who comes periodically for Sunday DL. She always kneels after receiving Eucharist. Far from scandalizing any of us, we all are very happy when she worships with us. Her faith is very sincere and she radiates a joy, in spite of difficulties in her life, which makes us all very glad when she visits.

She also always goes up and crouches under the book of the Gospels when it is proclaimed by the deacon. In our parish a parishioner rests the book of the Gospels on their head, bend over, during this reading and our visitor when she is with us just gets under there along with that person.

On most days of the week other than Sunday, in Orthodox Churches kneeling is permitted (encouraged), typical times being the Anaphora+Epiklesis, Lord’s Prayer, the Elevation and the Prayer before Communion.

 

[CDB1718]

It’s not being critical, it’s about preserving one’s own traditions. Sure, the visitor wants to kneel. Later on we’d tear down our Iconostas, and then later our priests would be facing the people. It’s how all this mess gets started y’know. You give people an inch and they’d take a lightyear.

When a person participates in a liturgical service, there are norms for how the person is supposed to participate as a member of the laity or clergy present. In the west, this is the GIRM. People should kneel or stand when it is indicated by liturgical rubrics and local custom that those present do so. Some are ignorant of these customs and it could be inhospitable to correct them depending on the circumstances. In no way does it violate the person’s right to participate to share the local customs or to expect them to follow the rules for participation of the laity at the liturgy.

Receiving the Eucharist is different. It is regulated by canon law. It isn’t a matter of custom. A person either may or may not receive. An Eastern Catholic who is chrismated and in good standing may receive. Not allowing the Eastern Catholic to receive is not only inhospitable, it is scandalous, and it is outright wrong. Using an excuse that someone somewhere might not know better and could potentially be scandalized as a blanket cover for why no Eastern Catholic child is to be communed is a cop-out. Recognizing that there are people present who will be scandalized is a separate issue that needs to be addressed.

The most important aspect of being in communion with each other is that we share communion. No one can legitimately cut out whole segments of Catholics who are canonically worthy to receive and say communion doesn’t extend to them. Roman Catholics choose not to chrismate their children. We chrismate our children. All chrismated people in good standing may receive in any Catholic Church. That’s a Catholic thing, not an Eastern thing.

The Eastern Catholic Church decides who of its faithful receive. The Roman Catholic Church’s tradition is to share communion with them. An Eastern Catholic can go to Mass, kneel at the altar rail, and receive communion. And a Roman Catholic can go to Divine Liturgy, stand at the chalice, and receive communion.

“When in Rome, do as Rome does” when it comes to customs like when to stand or kneel. When a chrismated Catholic who is worthy to receive is presented for communion, you do as the Church does and administer the sacraments. There’s no wiggle room over custom or tradition involved.

 

[mardukm]

We show visitors who we are, not try to let them do whatever they want with our parishes.

That’s up to the pastor, not you. Unless the pastor gives a public instruction before Mass/DL that all visitors are expected to do what we do, then our attitude as the flock should be mercy and humility. Using your example, if a Latin feels in his/her conscience that the only way to show reverence to the Lord at the Eucharist is to kneel, and the pastor has not given instruction otherwise, that is just fine with me. I don’t understand or accept your personal preference to impose something on a visitor if his/her conscience dictates otherwise.

And it should go both ways, which is my response to the OP is what I said.

Yes. the attitude of mercy and humility should go both ways, not the attitude of criticism and unrelenting compliance.

If anyone is EC and visiting an RC, it’s best not to even try to have your younger kids receive Communion. Its one or two Sundays anyway.

I disagree completely. That attitude is not consistent with the value that Easterns and Orientals have for the reception of the Eucharist by infants. As a parent concerned about the spiritual welfare of my child, I consider it my solemn duty to request that accomodation if I am visiting a Latin parish. If the priest consideres it improper, I won’t argue. But it is altogether proper and morally right for me to at least try.

If they will be going to an RC parish regularly, then espouse the spirituality of the RCC.

I can agree with that, but I wouldn’t expect to force it on anyone. It should be discussed with the pastor, who will make the proper decision.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Vico]

An individuals rights does not override the rights of the community. Also note that one has “the right to worship God according to the prescriptions of their own Church sui iuris”. It is not a right to worship God according to the prescriptions of a Church sui iuris one is** not **enrolled in. The canons show the requirement (clergy and faithful) to follow the sacramental discipline of one’s church of enrollment.

Canon 26

1. In exercising their rights the Christian faithful, both as individuals and when gathered in associations, must take account of the common good of the Church and of the rights of others as well as their own obligations toward others.
2. In the interest of the common good, ecclesiastical authority has competence to regulate the exercise of the rights which belong to the Christian faithful.

The CCEO “bill of rights”:

Canon 15
2. The Christian faithful are free to make known their needs, especially spiritual ones, and their desires to the pastors of the Church.
3. In accord with the knowledge, competence and position which they possess, they have the right and even at times a duty to manifest to the pastors of the Church their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church, and they have a right to make their opinion known to the other Christian faithful, with due regard for the integrity of faith and morals and reverence for the same pastors, and with consideration for the common good and the dignity of persons.
Canon 16
The Christian faithful have the right to receive assistance from the pastors of the Church from the spiritual goods of the Church, especially the word of God and the sacraments.
Canon 17
The Christian faithful have the right to worship God according to the prescriptions of their own Church sui iuris, and to follow their own form of spiritual life consonant with the teaching of the Church.
Canon 18
The Christian faithful are free to found and to govern associations for charitable and religious purposes or for the promotion of the Christian vocation in the world; they are free to hold meetings to pursue these purposes in common.
Canon 19
All the Christian faithful, since they participate in the mission of the Church, have the right to promote or to sustain apostolic action by their own undertakings in accord with each one’s state and condition; however, no undertaking shall assume the name “Catholic” unless the consent of competent ecclesiastical authority is given.
Canon 20
The Christian faithful since they are called by baptism to lead a life in conformity with the teaching of the gospel, have the right to a Christian education by which they will be properly instructed so as to develop the maturity of a human person and at the same time come to know and live the mystery of salvation.
Canon 21
Those who are engaged in the sacred disciplines enjoy a lawful freedom of inquiry and of prudently expressing their opinions on matters in which they have expertise, while observing obsequium for the magisterium of the Church.
Canon 22
All the Christian faithful have the right to be free from any kind of coercion in choosing a state in life.
Canon 23
No one is permitted to damage unlawfully the good reputation which another person enjoys nor to violate the right of any person to protect his or her own privacy.
Canon 24

1. The Christian faithful can legitimately vindicate and defend the rights which they enjoy in the Church before a competent ecclesiastical court in accordance with the norm of law.
2. The Christian faithful also have the right, if they are summoned to judgment by competent authority, to be judged in accordance with the prescriptions of the law to be applied with equity.
3. The Christian faithful have the right not to be punished with Canonical penalties except in accordance with the norm of law.

 

[ConstantineTG]

When a person participates in a liturgical service, there are norms for how the person is supposed to participate as a member of the laity or clergy present. In the west, this is the GIRM. People should kneel or stand when it is indicated by liturgical rubrics and local custom that those present do so. Some are ignorant of these customs and it could be inhospitable to correct them depending on the circumstances. In no way does it violate the person’s right to participate to share the local customs or to expect them to follow the rules for participation of the laity at the liturgy.

Receiving the Eucharist is different. It is regulated by canon law. It isn’t a matter of custom. A person either may or may not receive. An Eastern Catholic who is chrismated and in good standing may receive. Not allowing the Eastern Catholic to receive is not only inhospitable, it is scandalous, and it is outright wrong. Using an excuse that someone somewhere might not know better and could potentially be scandalized as a blanket cover for why no Eastern Catholic child is to be communed is a cop-out. Recognizing that there are people present who will be scandalized is a separate issue that needs to be addressed.

The most important aspect of being in communion with each other is that we share communion. No one can legitimately cut out whole segments of Catholics who are canonically worthy to receive and say communion doesn’t extend to them. Roman Catholics choose not to chrismate their children. We chrismate our children. All chrismated people in good standing may receive in any Catholic Church. That’s a Catholic thing, not an Eastern thing.

The Eastern Catholic Church decides who of its faithful receive. The Roman Catholic Church’s tradition is to share communion with them. An Eastern Catholic can go to Mass, kneel at the altar rail, and receive communion. And a Roman Catholic can go to Divine Liturgy, stand at the chalice, and receive communion.

“When in Rome, do as Rome does” when it comes to customs like when to stand or kneel. When a chrismated Catholic who is worthy to receive is presented for communion, you do as the Church does and administer the sacraments. There’s no wiggle room over custom or tradition involved.

How is receiving the Eucharist is different? It is part of the Liturgy and part of the Liturgical norms. When we are visiting a parish, we should expect that we will have less rights than everyone else. You don’t go into someone else’s home and just eat their food and command which program to watch on their TV and put your feet up on their coffee table. A guest is to be treated well as a guest, but that doesn’t mean they can nor should impose.

 

[5Loaves]

Yes. When we’re in the RC parish we respect the RC tradition and praxis. Kids don’t receive until they are 7.

However, your family is canonically Latin Catholic so that makes sense to me that your children not receive in the Latin Church. You have been given an oikonomia, dispensation, in the UGCC for your children to receive Eucharist there, but as Latin Catholics I don’t see why that should then extend to the Latin Church. I think that could create confusion for other Latin Catholics.

 

[mardukm]

How is receiving the Eucharist is different?

I guess that’s part of the issue - that you don’t see a difference in importance between the reception of the Eucharist, on the one hand, and kneeling, on the other.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[thequeen]

When a person participates in a liturgical service, there are norms for how the person is supposed to participate as a member of the laity or clergy present. In the west, this is the GIRM. People should kneel or stand when it is indicated by liturgical rubrics and local custom that those present do so. Some are ignorant of these customs and it could be inhospitable to correct them depending on the circumstances. In no way does it violate the person’s right to participate to share the local customs or to expect them to follow the rules for participation of the laity at the liturgy.

Receiving the Eucharist is different. It is regulated by canon law. It isn’t a matter of custom. A person either may or may not receive. An Eastern Catholic who is chrismated and in good standing may receive. Not allowing the Eastern Catholic to receive is not only inhospitable, it is scandalous, and it is outright wrong. Using an excuse that someone somewhere might not know better and could potentially be scandalized as a blanket cover for why no Eastern Catholic child is to be communed is a cop-out. Recognizing that there are people present who will be scandalized is a separate issue that needs to be addressed.

The most important aspect of being in communion with each other is that we share communion. No one can legitimately cut out whole segments of Catholics who are canonically worthy to receive and say communion doesn’t extend to them. Roman Catholics choose not to chrismate their children. We chrismate our children. All chrismated people in good standing may receive in any Catholic Church. That’s a Catholic thing, not an Eastern thing.

The Eastern Catholic Church decides who of its faithful receive. The Roman Catholic Church’s tradition is to share communion with them. An Eastern Catholic can go to Mass, kneel at the altar rail, and receive communion. And a Roman Catholic can go to Divine Liturgy, stand at the chalice, and receive communion.

“When in Rome, do as Rome does” when it comes to customs like when to stand or kneel. When a chrismated Catholic who is worthy to receive is presented for communion, you do as the Church does and administer the sacraments. There’s no wiggle room over custom or tradition involved.

I love your post Our priest is very knowledgable about both the Latin and Eastern rites of the Church as is the priest at the near by Byzantine Parish I go sometimes to the Byzantine Parish and some times their parishioners come to our Latin rite Parish and their is no problem with their toddlers and small children receiving communion in our Parish’

 

[babochka]

It’s not being critical, it’s about preserving one’s own traditions. Sure, the visitor wants to kneel. Later on we’d tear down our Iconostas, and then later our priests would be facing the people. It’s how all this mess gets started y’know. You give people an inch and they’d take a lightyear.

What exactly are you going to do, when faced with kneeling visitors? Are you going to approach them while they pray and inform them that kneeling is not allowed in this church? If a visitor, through lack of knowledge and proper understanding, kneels to receive Communion, should the priest rebuke him and make him stand, or refuse to give him Holy Communion? Do we really want to treat visitors who would like to learn more about our churches with such disrespect?

Last week,we had some visitors from the nearby Ukrainian Catholic church. They are friends of our parish and ethnically Ukrainian, lifelong members of their parish. They knelt throughout the Consecration. Certainly, if they were to stick around and become members of our parish or even regular visitors, they would become more comfortable conforming to the posture of the rest of the congregation. Until that point, I will simply set the example.

(While we’re at it, perhaps we should start a campaign to eradicate kneeling in the many Orthodox churches that do allow such an abomination. )

I appreciate your zeal to return to and maintain Eastern traditions. One of the ways in which we can do this is to educate the Latin Rite Catholics about them. My children participate in a non parish based religious formation program (The Catechesis of the Good Shepherd). We are a group of about 30 families. Once every couple of months, we have a Mass for the group. We have had 3 chaplains for our group and each one of them has been happy to give my children Communion. When it first came up, I only asked the priest about my then 5-year old receiving, but since my younger children weren’t asking to receive, I didn’t worry about it. We got a new priest, so I approached him about my next youngest child, now 5. At the time, I had my 1 year old in my arms and my 3 year old next to me. He asked me if they wanted to receive as well. I have had many opportunities to explain our traditions to the other families because of it, and several have asked to visit our church as a result of those conversations.

By the way, if they are going to come to visit our church, I prep them by explaining that we bow instead of genuflect, how we make the sign of the cross, etc. If they seem unsure, I reassure them that nobody will jump down their throats if they choose to genuflect in church. We’ll just recognize them as the newcomers they are and welcome them.

 

[babochka]

Its one or two Sundays anyway. If they will be going to an RC parish regularly, then espouse the spirituality of the RCC.

Would you refrain from receiving Communion for one or two Sundays because parishioners at the RC parish did not understand Eastern Catholicism and did not believe that you were really Catholic?