Should an Eastern Catholic infant receive Communion in a Roman Catholic church?

[mardukm]

BTW - the continuation of this line of argument makes the case for Latinization.

Well, said brother ByzCathCantor. It’s interesting that brother CTG tried to argue the exact opposite earlier in the thread - that to respect the ritual customs of our visitors by giving them leeway to pursue them in our liturgical setting would somehow cause our own traditions to disappear. The irony is that the lack of respect for the ritual traditions of other Churches is what caused Latinization to occur in the first place.

Complete uniformity in Liturgical action is dangerous for the non-Latin Traditions in another sense – i.e., we lose the opportunity to educate Latins about us if we are always expected to “do as the Romans do when in Rome.”

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[mardukm]

Yes. That is my opinion. As St. Ambrose said, when he travels to Rome he fasts on the days Rome fasts, and when he is back in Milan he fasts on the days they fast.

You didn’t really address brother BCC’s post. He was talking about the Sacraments. Fasting is a different thing.

Blessiongs,
Marduk

 

[Cristiano]

…, we lose the opportunity to educate Latins about us if we are always expected to “do as the Romans do when in Rome.”

Blessings,
Marduk

I am a Latin Catholic, I was born and raised in Rome and I do not need no stinking education, ignorance is a bliss.

 

[ConstantineTG]

It is their tradition to share communion with Eastern Catholics. It is the Eastern Catholic pastor’s job, according to the Eastern canons and norms, to determine when an Eastern Catholic is properly prepared to begin receiving the sacraments.

When a priest says Mass and has a chrismated and communing Catholic approach for the Eucharist during that Mass, he is strictly bound to administer the sacrament except in very few situations which include the recipient being excommunicated or in a state of public sin. I don’t know of any infant who could fit those criteria by any stretch of subjective judgment. There is no wiggle room.

On the other side, the priest is also required to celebrate the sacrament according to his own rite, so that means an Eastern Catholic cannot ask him to use a Maronite anaphora or Byzantine prosphora with leavened bread. The Roman tradition is kept whole and entire, which includes the Roman GIRM and the Roman tradition of sharing full communion with Eastern Catholics. This is what protects them from Byzantinization while allowing them to share full communion with the Eastern Catholic Churches. This is also what protects the Eastern Catholic traditions from Latinization while allowing us to welcome Roman Catholics to the Lord’s table.

The Eastern pastor’s jurisdiction is within his parish. If a lay person enters an RC parish, they are in another jurisdiction. Even their own bishop doesn’t have jurisdiction within that parish. Everything done in that parish is geared towards Latin spirituality, thus it should be consistent. And as I noted in Canon Law, as everyone here insists, it is clear the Latin priest is bound to ensure the child is of the proper age to receive.

 

[ConstantineTG]

You didn’t really address brother BCC’s post. He was talking about the Sacraments. Fasting is a different thing.

Blessiongs,
Marduk

Of course not. Everything we do in the Church is defined by tradition. Fasting is a basic precept of the Church, you can’t be Christian if you do not fast, along with receiving the Sacraments and prayer of course. Sad that fasting has taken a back seat in Latin spirituality, but nonetheless it is still important. Why do we want a Latin priest to break their tradition anyway? Where do we put the limits to what accomodations do Latin priests have to do for Eastern visitors?

 

[mardukm]

The Eastern pastor’s jurisdiction is within his parish. If a lay person enters an RC parish, they are in another jurisdiction.

Please read Canon 13 of the CIC. Yes, a non-Latin Catholic is in another jurisdiction when he enters that parish, but he/she is not bound by the laws of that jurisdiction.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[CDB1718]

The Eastern pastor’s jurisdiction is within his parish. If a lay person enters an RC parish, they are in another jurisdiction. Even their own bishop doesn’t have jurisdiction within that parish. Everything done in that parish is geared towards Latin spirituality, thus it should be consistent. And as I noted in Canon Law, as everyone here insists, it is clear the Latin priest is bound to ensure the child is of the proper age to receive.

I’ve never encountered this idea before. A person remains subject to his own Church and its authority no matter where he goes or how long he goes there. Canons of East and West say the same thing.

A 13 year old Roman Catholic child who is baptized, confessing, and communing, who kept the Eucharistic fast and properly prepared to receive the Eucharist, presents himself at the chalice in a Ukrainian Catholic Church. Should he be publicly rejected the Eucharist for not being chrismated?

If he should, how do you reconcile this separate but equal philosophy with being in full communion? Isn’t that saying that there are practices and beliefs in the other church that minimize or negate our communion? Doesn’t that say that this practice is heretical and we can’t share the Eucharist with someone who does that? I don’t see how this idea can be consistently held while full communion is maintained.

 

[Cristiano]

Of course not. **Everything we do in the Church is defined by tradition. ** Fasting is a basic precept of the Church, you can’t be Christian if you do not fast, along with receiving the Sacraments and prayer of course. Sad that fasting has taken a back seat in Latin spirituality, but nonetheless it is still important. Why do we want a Latin priest to break their tradition anyway? Where do we put the limits to what accomodations do Latin priests have to do for Eastern visitors?

Because tradition is for the benefit of our relationship with God and not viceversa.

 

[mardukm]

Where do we put the limits to what accomodations do Latin priests have to do for Eastern visitors?

So your best argument is the slippery slope? That’s a fallacy, btw, according to rhetorical standards.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[ByzCathCantor]

A 13 year old Roman Catholic child who is baptized, confessing, and communing, who kept the Eucharistic fast and properly prepared to receive the Eucharist, presents himself at the chalice in a Ukrainian Catholic Church. Should he be publicly rejected the Eucharist for not being chrismated?

This is a most relevant question - well put!

 

[mardukm]

And as I noted in Canon Law, as everyone here insists, it is clear the Latin priest is bound to ensure the child is of the proper age to receive.

You are aware that the CIC is only for Latin Catholics, and not for Eastern/Oriental Catholics?

A Latin priest is bound to ensure a LATIN Catholic child is of the proper age to receive. He is also bound to respect the Sacramental needs of an EASTERN/ORIENTAL Catholic child (at least according to his knowledge).

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Cristiano]

You are aware that the CIC is only for Latin Catholics, and not for Eastern/Oriental Catholics?

A Latin priest is bound to ensure a LATIN Catholic child is of the proper age to receive. He is also bound to respect the Sacramental needs of an EASTERN/ORIENTAL Catholic child (at least according to his knowledge).

Blessings,
Marduk

When I was first trained as an EMHC I was specifically instructed to be aware that very young children from Eastern Catholic Churches or from Orthodox Churches could be brought to receive communion and that we had to look in the ciborium for a fraction of the host that was small enough to be safe for comsumption.

 

[CDB1718]

Of course not. Everything we do in the Church is defined by tradition.

Our faith is who we are. This is the same everywhere through all of time.

Our mysteries/sacraments are what we do. These are essential to our faith and are defined by councils.

Our beliefs are why we do it. There’s a lot of leeway in what we believe with the different rites having different beliefs and with the same rite allowing development of doctrine over time.

Our traditions are how we do it. This changes with time and place and culture. These traditions are set up to help that people best express their beliefs.

When to kneel in a liturgy or how long to fast before receiving are traditions. The Eucharist is a sacrament. That doesn’t change because you walked into a different parish. There’s no slippery slope involved. You receive when your church says you may. You receive how their church prescribes.

 

[5Loaves]

The Eastern pastor’s jurisdiction is within his parish. If a lay person enters an RC parish, they are in another jurisdiction. Even their own bishop doesn’t have jurisdiction within that parish. Everything done in that parish is geared towards Latin spirituality, thus it should be consistent. And as I noted in Canon Law, as everyone here insists, it is clear the Latin priest is bound to ensure the child is of the proper age to receive.

I brought this question up in our Canon Law class a number of years ago. You are correct that when an Eastern Catholic comes into Latin Church parish the priest of that parish is bound by the CIC. However, he is not limited by those Canons when ministering to Eastern Catholics who are under the CCEO, as well as canons of their own particular Church, if their Church has canons. The canon lawyer teaching the class, a priest in this case, had plenty of experience communing visiting babies and infants who are canonically Eastern Catholic. His caution was simply don’t approach the priest to introduce yourselves (as EC) as he’s about to process in. Don’t approach him about anything as he is about to process in.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Please read Canon 13 of the CIC. Yes, a non-Latin Catholic is in another jurisdiction when he enters that parish, but he/she is not bound by the laws of that jurisdiction.

Blessings,
Marduk

But the priest is, therefore he can only give Communion as per his own canons, not the communicants.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Because tradition is for the benefit of our relationship with God and not viceversa.

The needs of many outweigh the needs of one. If the greater tradition in a parish is that of the Latin one, then it prevails for all the Latin Catholics there over the one family who is Eastern.

 

[CDB1718]

But the priest is, therefore he can only give Communion as per his own canons, not the communicants.

And his canons say “Any baptized person not prohibited by law can and must be admitted to holy communion.” Can. 912 and “Sacred ministers cannot deny the sacraments to those who seek them at appropriate times, are properly disposed, and are not prohibited by law from receiving them.” Can. 843 §1.

What makes an Eastern Catholic properly disposed to receive?
CCEO, Can. 697 Sacramental initiation in the mystery of salvation is perfected in the reception of the Divine Eucharist, and thus the Divine Eucharist is administered after baptism and chrismation with holy myron as soon as possible according to the norms of the particular law…
CCEO, Can. 712 Those who are publicly unworthy are forbidden from receiving the Divine Eucharist.
CCEO, Can. 713 §2 Concerning the preparation for participation in the Divine Eucharist through fast, prayers and other works, the Christian faithful are to observe faithfully the norms of the Church sui iuris in which they are enrolled, not only within the territorial boundaries of the same Church, but, inasmuch as it is possible, everywhere.
CCEO, Can. 719 Anyone who is aware of serious sin is to receive the sacrament of penance as soon as possible; it is strongly recommended to all the Christian faithful that they receive this sacrament frequently especially during the times of fasts and penance observed in their own Church sui iuris.
CCEO, Can. 1431 Those punished with a minor excommunication are deprived of the reception of the Divine Eucharist.

Unless you can show me an infant who is excommunicated or in a state of public sin, the Roman Catholic priest’s canons require him to commune a chrismated and communing Eastern Catholic child.

 

[CDB1718]

The needs of many outweigh the needs of one. If the greater tradition in a parish is that of the Latin one, then it prevails for all the Latin Catholics there over the one family who is Eastern.

“What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish. Mt 18:12-14

 

[RyanBlack]

The needs of many outweigh the needs of one. If the greater tradition in a parish is that of the Latin one, then it prevails for all the Latin Catholics there over the one family who is Eastern.

For a RC priest to follow Canon Law and administer Holy Communion to a fully initiated Eastern Catholic child in no way whatsoever interferes with the needs of the RC faithful of his parish. Not even if someone tries to raise the issue of scandal (which can be easily dealt with by taking a few brief moments to educate people).

 

[ByzCathCantor]

The needs of many outweigh the needs of one.

Fortunately or unfortunately, Mr. Spock is not the Pope