Should apostates of Islam be killed??

[jack_hawkins]

Yeah that would be nice.



The Muslims that I’ve actually *talked *to in my city are all very understanding, kind people and would tell me that what these people represent isn’t Islam but a warped version of it.

…well in the UK Muslims have been filmed in the mosques saying all sorts of things - and don’t forget that since most people don’t know Arabic the most contentious things are said in that language alone
one speaker said “if your daughter won’t wear the hijab hit her!”

 

[exoflare]

Oh well, the thread was deleted. And it looks like now they make people register over at ummah.com before you can view posts there. Go figure.

 

[cestusdei]

LOL, I bet it was my post about reporting them to the FBI. They ran for cover. If asked they will say “oh no, we would never teach such a thing.” I do hope they have the chance to explain themselves to some interrogators and get that one way ticket back to wherever they came from.

 

[exoflare]

LOL, I bet it was my post about reporting them to the FBI. They ran for cover. If asked they will say “oh no, we would never teach such a thing.” I do hope they have the chance to explain themselves to some interrogators and get that one way ticket back to wherever they came from.

Did you really report them to the FBI though?
I wonder if google has a cache of that particular thug convention still… that would serve as enough evidence even though they already deleted the thread. Someone else on there asked why the thread was deleted and the moderators would not answer…

 

[exoflare]

Oh well, I couldn’t find a google cache anyway.

In any case, nobody ever believes it when I tell them Muslims openly support evil doctrines like this amongst themselves but hide them from everyone else.

something like “That CAN’T be true… you’re tho in-thenthitive!”

 

[Ahimsa]

Judaism has scriptures (apparently from God’s own command) that also demand that apostates be killed; see Deuteronomy 13:6-11, e.g… What happened, such that Jews don’t follow such commands anymore? It became accepted that, even if God commanded it, it wasn’t the compassionate, humane thing to do.

Islam is still a young religion, like Judaism was way back in the 500s BCE. Islam’s conception of God will evolve, just like Judaism’s conception did. Christianity itself can be seen as an evolution of Judaism. So, we can likely predict new religious movements coming out of Islam, movements that will move Islam to a more compassionate view of God’s nature. In fact, one of these movements has always existed in Islam (the Sufis), and one is relatively new (the Bahais).

 

[StMarkEofE]

You know, I’ve always been a big supporter of Islam to my friends and family - just as much as I’ve been a supporter of Christianity, Judaism, etc…

This forum post scares me, but it’s not because they’re talking about executions. It’s that they can’t think for themselves. They’re so *locked *into their ultra-religious mindsets that they can’t see outside that little box they’ve made for themselves. It’s like reason, logic, and empathy is out the window. I see that sometimes here on this forum too - and in a few others that I lurk in - but it’s not nearly as bad as this.

=/

These muslims are doing a very bad job of representing Islam… I think.

Violence has always been part of the Muslim religion. Even the sword is on many of their national flags. Muhammed conquered other nations by the sword. Why is it so difficult to believe that they would not kill apostates to their faith?

 

[exoflare]

Judaism has scriptures (apparently from God’s own command) that also demand that apostates be killed; see Deuteronomy 13:6-11, e.g… What happened, such that Jews don’t follow such commands anymore? It became accepted that, even if God commanded it, it wasn’t the compassionate, humane thing to do.

Two quick points here:

1. The verse you cited is not referring to apostasy in itself… it’s referring to people who actively tried to deceive the others with false doctrines.
2. The book of Deuteronomy, while from God, is not necessarily interpreted (in either Christianity or Judaism) to be the final and perfect command of God for all times and places. In Islam, everything they believe is considered to be the final and perfect revelation from God for all-time.

 

[Ahimsa]

Two quick points here:

1. The verse you cited is not referring to apostasy in itself… it’s referring to people who actively tried to deceive the others with false doctrines.

Many Muslims would likewise refer to their laws on apostasy as referring to those who actively act antagonistically towards Islam after leaving Islam.

1. The book of Deuteronomy, while from God, is not necessarily interpreted (in either Christianity or Judaism) to be the final and perfect command of God for all times and places. In Islam, everything they believe is considered to be the final and perfect revelation from God for all-time.

Wahhabis might believe that, since they are very fundamentalist in their interpretation of the Qur’an. But Indonesian Muslims, for instance, are much less rigid, not to mention many Sufis in India – and don’t forget about the Ahmadiyyahs in Pakistan, and the even more radical Babi’s of Iran (and the Babi off-shoot, Baha’i). All these (plus the Mutazlis of early Islam, who rejected the idea of an ‘eternal’ Qur’an) indicate that the current Wahhabi/fundamentalist-militant form of Islam forms part of a non-permanent phase of Islamic history (a phase certainly partially sustained, ironically, by oil-revenue).

The imminent Islamic Reformation will be painful – for all of us – but it will be a necessary transformation that will benefit Muslim and non-Muslim alike, and will help usher in the next stage in human evolution.

 

[Montalban]

With regard to the shar’i rulings on apostates, if the apostate does not return to Islam, he must be executed.
islamqa.com/index.php?ref=20060&ln=eng

So? One could read the Old Testament, see that it gives death as the penalty for Homosexuality, and execute all gay people. Just because your scripture tells you something, doesn’t mean you have to interpret it literally.

There’s no causal link in your post

There’s a law in the OT about not eating pork. But plenty do. Why? Because there’s a whole swathe of OT laws that (we Christians believe) were of that time.

There’s no ‘time-out’ limit on the Islamic law of killing Apostates which is why a great many Islamic scholars still aprove of the practice.

Try actually connecting the two ‘aspects’ of your statement, and that would actually give you an argument.

aspect one: OT laws for killing homosexuals
apsect two: Christians might kill homosexuals based on OT laws.

I’ve shown the way it’s done
aspect one: Hadith say kill apostates
aspect two: Moslems believe that they should kill apostates.

now you try

 

[Montalban]

Islam will eventually go through a reformation. I’m absolutely sure of it.

Even if it might do that, that still doesn’t mean that AT THIS MOMENT Islam believes in killing Apostates.

However, there’s no real room for reform in Islam because they believe Muhammed delivered the final message. They believe this message is uncorrupted and thus without error.

But please do speculate away, where do you think reform will come from?

 

[Montalban]

Oh well, the thread was deleted. And it looks like now they make people register over at ummah.com before you can view posts there. Go figure.

Moslems don’t want non-Moslems to see what they *really *think!

 

[exoflare]

Moslems don’t want non-Moslems to see what they *really *think!

I know… and yet so many people still can’t see the writing on the wall. I’ll never understand this sissified p.c. mentality of today.

 

[cor]

hola

just so there is no confusion, the Church has never argued for the killing of apostates… ecclesia non sitit sanguinem, the Church does not thirst for blood.

Dominus Vobiscum

I don’t think that’s quite true.

1. That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit.

The above was one of the errors condemned by Pope Leo X in his bull Exsurge Domine found here:

papalencyclicals.net/Leo10/l10exdom.htm

These errors are described so"

No one of sound mind is ignorant how destructive, pernicious, scandalous, and seductive to pious and simple minds these various errors are, how opposed they are to all charity and reverence for the holy Roman Church who is the mother of all the faithful and teacher of the faith; how destructive they are of the vigor of ecclesiastical discipline, namely obedience.

“holy Roman Church” btw refers to the Diocese of Rome or See of Rome.

That’s for heresy, not apostasy but I imagine the same teaching would apply for apostasy. This was in 1520. It would seem contrary to the spirit of Vatican II but I guess you could reconcile it.

 

[exoflare]

The above was one of the errors condemned by Pope Leo X in his bull Exsurge Domine found here:

papalencyclicals.net/Leo10/l10exdom.htm

These errors are described so"

By “the Church” I think we’re referring to infallible doctrines on faith and morals. Papal encyclicals are not considered to be infallible, as they are not addressed to the Church at large but only to the bishops of the Church at that time. They usually concern some pressing matter of immediate urgency.