Should atheism be illegal?

[pathia]

By your statement above, it would also beg the question, how can you enforce a “thought” process…yet under the Communist rule in the Soviet Union, millions of people were forced not to believe.

And I would have less of a problem with Atheists if they would STOP trying to enforce THEIR “non-belief” on the rest of us through court actions…for instance Michael Newdow and his continued attempts to destroy ANY sort of public display of faith.

I have never been confronted by an atheist demanding I not do this or that.

Though my partner is one. He is a lovingly sweet person and wouldn’t harm a soul and never forces his non-belief beliefs on me. So maybe I am somewhat biased.

 

[neat62]

Food for thought for ALL Catholics:

PASTORAL CONSTITUTION
ON THE CHURCH IN THE
MODERN WORLD
GAUDIUM ET SPES
PROMULGATED BY
HIS HOLINESS, POPE PAUL VI
ON DECEMBER 7, 1965

1. The root reason for human dignity lies in man’s call to communion with God. From the very circumstance of his origin man is already invited to converse with God. For man would not exist were he not created by Gods love and constantly preserved by it; and he cannot live fully according to truth unless he freely acknowledges that love and devotes himself to His Creator. Still, many of our contemporaries have never recognized this intimate and vital link with God, or have explicitly rejected it. Thus atheism must be accounted among the most serious problems of this age, and is deserving of closer examination.

The word atheism is applied to phenomena which are quite distinct from one another. For while God is expressly denied by some, others believe that man can assert absolutely nothing about Him. Still others use such a method to scrutinize the question of God as to make it seem devoid of meaning. Many, unduly transgressing the limits of the positive sciences, contend that everything can be explained by this kind of scientific reasoning alone, or by contrast, they altogether disallow that there is any absolute truth. Some laud man so extravagantly that their faith in God lapses into a kind of anemia, though they seem more inclined to affirm man than to deny God. Again some form for themselves such a fallacious idea of God that when they repudiate this figment they are by no means rejecting the God of the Gospel. Some never get to the point of raising questions about God, since they seem to experience no religious stirrings nor do they see why they should trouble themselves about religion. Moreover, atheism results not rarely from a violent protest against the evil in this world, or from the absolute character with which certain human values are unduly invested, and which thereby already accords them the stature of God. Modern civilization itself often complicates the approach to God not for any essential reason but because it is so heavily engrossed in earthly affairs.

Undeniably, those who willfully shut out God from their hearts and try to dodge religious questions are not following the dictates of their consciences, and hence are not free of blame; yet believers themselves frequently bear some responsibility for this situation. For, taken as a whole, atheism is not a spontaneous development but stems from a variety of causes, including a critical reaction against religious beliefs, and in some places against the Christian religion in particular. Hence believers can have more than a little to do with the birth of atheism. To the extent that they neglect their own training in the faith, or teach erroneous doctrine, or are deficient in their religious, moral or social life, they must be said to conceal rather than reveal the authentic face of God and religion.

 

[neat62]

And that ultimate authority has given us free will (from this perspective, I’m not Christian). Who are you to overide that. Really, what business of yours is it what others choose to believe.

Because if I truly love my neighbor…I will wish to see them in the eternal life and I will do all, within my own power, to help them find God, not turn away from Him!

And according to your theory of “free will” we should be able to do whatever we want, so why do we have laws that prohibit ANYTHING?

 

[neat62]

I have never been confronted by an atheist demanding I not do this or that.

Though my partner is one. He is a lovingly sweet person and wouldn’t harm a soul and never forces his non-belief beliefs on me. So maybe I am somewhat biased.

Or perhaps it doesn’t bother you that we can no longer have public displays of religion…that we have been forced to remove the Ten Commandments, prayer from school and are now facing challenges to remove God from the Pledge as well as our money??

Maybe that doesn’t seem to bother you because, through your own admission, you already openly accept Atheism?

 

[pathia]

Or perhaps it doesn’t bother you that we can no longer have public displays of religion…that we have been forced to remove the Ten Commandments, prayer from school and are now facing challenges to remove God from the Pledge as well as our money??

Maybe that doesn’t seem to bother you because, through your own admission, you already openly accept Atheism?

Prayer never belonged in public school in the first place. Religion has no place in government. Rome collapsed in part because the state was religious based.

Now, if they demanded religion be excised from say Catholic schools, then I would be offended.

As for prayer being banned at school. I am a substitute teacher at times. I can’t count how many times I’ve seen kids praying before their finals, I haven’t been ordered to ever stop them!

 

[neat62]

Prayer never belonged in public school in the first place. Religion has no place in government. Rome collapsed in part because the state was religious based.

Now, if they demanded religion be excised from say Catholic schools, then I would be offended.

As for prayer being banned at school. I am a substitute teacher at times. I can’t count how many times I’ve seen kids praying before their finals, I haven’t been ordered to ever stop them!

Umm…no, we are protected by the 1st Amendment that clearly states that:

---

**Congress shall make no law ***respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; **

That means, it will NOT get involved at ALL…it doesn’t mean that it will not allow prayer anywhere…it does not mean that it will not prohbit public displays of religion, etc. It means, as it clearly states…Congress will MAKE NO LAW and it again clearly states nor will it PROHIBIT the FREE exercise.

 

[neat62]

Here’s a very interesting read for those who believe that Atheism hasn’t “affected” or impacted our society.

John Dewey

 

[pathia]

Umm…no, we are protected by the 1st Amendment that clearly states that:

---

**Congress shall make no law *****respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

That means, it will NOT get involved at ALL…it doesn’t mean that it will not allow prayer anywhere…it does not mean that it will not prohbit public displays of religion, etc. It means, as it clearly states…Congress will MAKE NO LAW and it again clearly states nor will it PROHIBIT the FREE exercise.

We have after-school prayer groups here. We also have christian clubs, wiccan clubs, I don’t see how this is trampling on anyone’s rights. They aren’t stopping anything except a forced daily prayer in the morning.

 

[neat62]

We have after-school prayer groups here. We also have christian clubs, wiccan clubs, I don’t see how this is trampling on anyone’s rights. They aren’t stopping anything except a forced daily prayer in the morning.

Do even know what the prayer was that was said?

Do you know that Christian’s in public schools have been harassed and in many schools have been prohbited from wearing clothing with any sort of religious messages on them?

Do you know that Christian’s have been “forced” through “cultural studies” to learn about other faiths of the world, but NOT Christianity, in public schools?

And what is wrong with allowing students time in the morning to pray? If you don’t want to…then don’t, its pretty simple, no?

Finally…what about the attacks on the Pledge that is recited in school on a daily basis?

 

[neat62]

We have after-school prayer groups here. We also have christian clubs, wiccan clubs, I don’t see how this is trampling on anyone’s rights. They aren’t stopping anything except a forced daily prayer in the morning.

And apparently, you can’t answer the 1st Amendment question? Congress shall make NO LAW or PROHIBIT the FREE EXERCISE THEREOF!!

It doesn’t say…“except in public schools, or public buildings…or public parks…or in public squares, etc”

 

[pathia]

Do even know what the prayer was that was said?

Do you know that Christian’s in public schools have been harassed and in many schools have been prohbited from wearing clothing with any sort of religious messages on them?

Do you know that Christian’s have been “forced” through “cultural studies” to learn about other faiths of the world, but NOT Christianity, in public schools?

And what is wrong with allowing students time in the morning to pray? If you don’t want to…then don’t, its pretty simple, no?

Finally…what about the attacks on the Pledge that is recited in school on a daily basis?

Religion is a part of every day life in all countries and cultures. It is completely and utterly impossible to learn about another country without understanding their beliefs. Expecting a social studies class to not study Islam or other beliefs is silly, you can’t understand any other society with out comparing governments as well as religions. Particularly in countries where the two intermingle.

The pledge didn’t have God in it until the 50’s and the creator didn’t want it in there. It was originally ‘under freedom’ instead of ‘under God’ if I recall correctly. Under freedom was how I recited it at school myself, much to my teacher’s annoyance.

And apparently, you can’t answer the 1st Amendment question? Congress shall make NO LAW or PROHIBIT the FREE EXERCISE THEREOF!!

It doesn’t say…“except in public schools, or public buildings…or public parks…or in public squares, etc”

If you have a mandatory morning prayer then you are forcing anyone non-christian into a belief. That tramples on free exercise. Free exercise also includes NOT praying.

 

[neat62]

Religion is a part of every day life in all countries and cultures. It is completely and utterly impossible to learn about another country without understanding their beliefs. Expecting a social studies class to not study Islam or other beliefs is silly, you can’t understand any other society with out comparing governments as well as religions. Particularly in countries where the two intermingle.

Then the same applies to actually learning about other cultures…bad argument. Also, there are more than ONE Christian nation in the world…so why they ins’t Christianity taught??

The pledge didn’t have God in it until the 50’s and the creator didn’t want it in there. It was originally ‘under freedom’ instead of ‘under God’ if I recall correctly. Under freedom was how I recited it at school myself, much to my teacher’s annoyance.

Well, see you found your own way of reciting it…why can’t the kids today do the same? And what about “In God we Trust”…on our money? Because they are threatening to remove that too…and let’s not even mention all the Ten Commandments that have been removed throughout the nation…ahem…ALABAMA!

If you have a mandatory morning prayer then you are forcing anyone non-christian into a belief. That tramples on free exercise. Free exercise also includes NOT praying.

No…you are not forcing ANYONE to believe…but by preventing those WHO DO believe from praying, you are prohibiting their free exercise of their beliefs.

 

[pathia]

No…you are not forcing ANYONE to believe…but by preventing those WHO DO believe from praying, you are prohibiting their free exercise of their beliefs.

In my social studies classes we studied Christianity. I was only in HS and College a few years ago.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

And what is wrong with allowing students time in the morning to pray? If you don’t want to…then don’t, its pretty simple, no?

Religious parents frequently complain that sex education should be dealt with at home and not in the school. I for one agree with that. But likewise, prayer should be handled in the home, not in the school. If it is important to a parent that a child begin his school day with prayer, then before he leaves the family should gather and have morning worship. Seeing his family at prayer together every morning will benefit a child more than a few moments of non-denominational silence in a class room.

Since the resurrection, Christians have been persecuted. THey have had to keep their Christianity a secret and hide in the catecombs. This persecution caused the Church to flourish, it was the blood of the martyrs that watered that seeds of Christianity. Perhaps we should be thanking the athiests in the U.S. for the persecution our children find in the public schools because it will make them better Christians.

 

[D_M]

I think you better check your Catechism because as I understand it…the Ten Commandments ARE the natural laws, written on every human heart by our Creator Himself. And they were given to Moses, no specifically for “Christians” but for all people.

So in other words, to deny them or to “break” them…is to go against the natural law, and in fact, is a grevious and mortal offense against God.

You’re sort of correct because the natural law would be the precepts of the ten commandments, or to quote St Paul ‘when heathen do what the law requires they become a law unto themselves’.

And what the law requires, that is its precepts and which is the natural law is in fact simply love of God and neighbour.

The actual decalogue of Moses is not written on the human though, only its precepts, which is why I can quote St Paul claiming that not heeding a sabbath for instance is only sinful to people who thought God required it of them (ie. becuase then they are doing something against God, a person who did not know God wanted them to keep the sabbath could not charged as doing anything against God for not keeping it).

So perhaps I should rephrase, the precepts of the decalogue are common for all humanity whether or not it has been revealed to them, as you correctly state, but the decalogue itself as a written rule can only apply to us christians (and perhaps also to Jews) whose conscience is guided by them.

The question therefore for all non-christians, and atheists among them, is whether or not they love God, not if they keep a written law that they do not actually know to be God’s will.

I’m not convinced that atheists love God, though, if that helps your case.

 

[Mirdath]

The question therefore for all non-christians, and atheists among them, is whether or not they love God, not if they keep a written law that they do not actually know to be God’s will.

I’m not convinced that atheists love God, though, if that helps your case.

I appreciate the sentiment, but you’re kind of barking up the wrong tree. I’m an agnostic, not an atheist, but whether or not I love God is entirely dependent on whether I know God. How can I love something I can (from my own experience) only describe as ‘probably a figment of someone else’s imagination’?

If I knew the divine, I’d make up my mind whether to love it or not – but I don’t. And since my mind, or (so far as I can tell) any human mind, isn’t up to the task of knowing in such a way without assistance, if anything’s going to be done the mountain’s gotta come to Mohammed.

 

[D_M]

I appreciate the sentiment, but you’re kind of barking up the wrong tree. I’m an agnostic, not an atheist, but whether or not I love God is entirely dependent on whether I know God. How can I love something I can (from my own experience) only describe as ‘probably a figment of someone else’s imagination’?

If I knew the divine, I’d make up my mind whether to love it or not – but I don’t. And since my mind, or (so far as I can tell) any human mind, isn’t up to the task of knowing in such a way without assistance, if anything’s going to be done the mountain’s gotta come to Mohammed.

I have two answers and then a question of my own to ask.

Answer 1: Do you love your neighbour?

1 John 4:20 If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen

Do you love other people, do you love me, do you love even those people who are hard for you to accept (perhaps for example the religious people who tell you you are going to hell)? If you do not love your neighbour you do not love God and live in grave sin.

Answer 2: (this is longer) God is near each one of us, whether we recognize Him or not.

You mention you are an agnostic, meaning you confess that you neither know nor do not know the existence of God, and I will try to take a parallel from scripture to apply here to explain what I say.

Acts 17:22-31
22Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: “Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. 23For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you. 24"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28’For in him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’ 29"Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man’s design and skill. 30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.”

In ancient athens there was a deity worshipped that simply called the unknown God (Νή τόν Άγνωστον, pronounce Hey ton Ag-noe-ston, which is incidentally the root of the word ‘agnostic’) in place of whatever other God could have been out there who was not acknowledged among the idols in the city. Paul here is declaring to them that this God who could have been out there they were paying homage to was Jesus Christ, and that he is in fact near each one of us and in him we live and have our being.

I likewise declare to you that this God, who sent His Son to die for me and you, is not a figment of the imagination but is near you and always has been. Believe in Him for He is the truth.

Whether or not you recognize His existence, or to acknowledge Him by His true name, does not change the fact that He is near you and you have experienced Him in your life although you may fail to recognize Him when He has appeared.

Question: I’m curious why you say ‘probably’ a figment of someone’s imagination… even from the perspective of someone outside the faith, through use of your faculty of reasoning what exactly is probable about it?

I cannot tell if you are honest in seeking the truth or not, and I don’t judge, you would have to answer that yourself.

 

[Mirdath]

Do you love your neighbour?

Yes – even the wackos who call me a queer, drug-addled, hellbound Nazi soul-rapist (I’ve gotten every one of those at some point – love em, but it won’t stop me pushing their buttons for their own good)

Paul here is declaring to them that this God who could have been out there they were paying homage to was Jesus Christ, and that he is in fact near each one of us and in him we live and have our being.

Indeed – however, the Athenians who set up that altar already had the idea that Something was out there. I’m not starting with that assumption.

Question: I’m curious why you say ‘probably’ a figment of someone’s imagination… even from the perspective of someone outside the faith, through use of your faculty of reasoning what exactly is probable about it?

Inductive reasoning: I have not seen the hand of any God at work, nor have I found any ironclad argument for the existence of a deity (and trying to find such a thing is a bit counterproductive for people who have ‘blessed are they who have believed, and yet not seen’ in their scriptures). Since I have no evidence for the reality of the divine, until that changes I assume it likely isn’t real.

 

[neat62]

Yes – even the wackos who call me a queer, drug-addled, hellbound Nazi soul-rapist (I’ve gotten every one of those at some point – love em, but it won’t stop me pushing their buttons for their own good)

Indeed – however, the Athenians who set up that altar already had the idea that Something was out there. I’m not starting with that assumption.

Inductive reasoning: I** have not seen the hand of any God at work, **nor have I found any ironclad argument for the existence of a deity (and trying to find such a thing is a bit counterproductive for people who have ‘blessed are they who have believed, and yet not seen’ in their scriptures). Since I have no evidence for the reality of the divine, until that changes I assume it likely isn’t real.

Then I suggest you haven’t actually taken 1) a good, hard look around you at the birds, the flowers, the sky, etc. 2) have not taken a good look back over your life (not sure how old you are) to see when something else was at work, cause you weren’t, etc.

I don’t mean that to be “mean”…just saying that I know of times in my life when I can look back and have no explaination for what occured or how I wasn’t seriously hurt more than I was, or how something just seemed to “fall” into my lap, totally unexpected and through nothing of my own doing, etc.

 

[neat62]

In my social studies classes we studied Christianity. I was only in HS and College a few years ago.

Well…I have a niece who’s a senior in high school now and I had a fit over one school book she was given for social studies…because it actually did speak of Christianity…but it did so in a complete and total derogatory manner…spreading false staements on the teachings, while at the same time, it praised the Islamic faith and portrayed it as absolute truth.

I had a fit…had her parents immediately call and write letters to the principal of the school as well as the district supervisors…the book was immediately pulled! BUT…if I hadn’t bothered to take a look through her book one day…it would have been taught as gospel in the public school she attended!