Should athiests be allowed to adopt children?

[Mirdath]

Agreed.

So a Catholic adoption agency should discriminate on the basis of religion? This is specifically prohibited, as long as they accept government funding – and most of them cannot support themselves without it.

Essentially, you are agreeing that Catholic adoption agencies in the United States should commit suicide. Is this what you want for the children?

 

[Catholig]

So a Catholic adoption agency should discriminate on the basis of religion? This is specifically prohibited, as long as they accept government funding – and most of them cannot support themselves without it.

Essentially, you are agreeing that Catholic adoption agencies in the United States should commit suicide. Is this what you want for the children?

Mirdath, while I don’t know whether or not catholic adoption agencies should discriminate based on religion - I don’t think that they should anyway condon sinful behavior (namely homosexuality). In fact I would rather that the catholic adoption agencies in the US close than be strong armed into moral relativism or moral pluralism. If the government can’t respect our beliefs - well then why should we try to fix society’s ills? I guess this isn’t too charitable but that is how I feel. Plain and simply we can take our business elsewhere.

Catholig

 

[Aleii]

To begin with, this nation was founded upon Christian principles and ideas about human dignity that simply do not exist in religions or cultures outside the Judeo-Christian tradition. It therefore stands to reason that the government has a palpable interest in seeing that the next generation is raised in an environment where the child will stand the best possible chance of being raised with those values.

I’m glad my government has separation of church and state so that one religion is not forced upon its citizens.

Atheists lack any kind of morality that cannot ultimately be boiled down to personal preference. A child needs to be raised in an environment that cements the idea that morality is static, not subjective. The child needs to be discouraged from viewing moral precepts as something that is merely an arbitrary list of cultural conventions. The environment best suited to do this will always be one in which the parents are both orthodox Christians.

Each adoption case needs to be looked at individually, in a detailed manner. Most atheists determine their value system/morals based upon reason and rationale of what is best for the whole, not an “arbitrary list of cultural conventions”. You make it sound like the list of what is good and bad changes every day an atheist wakes up.

Even the Church recognizes that the faith of a child’s parents is of such import that a child may be removed from the household of even biological parents if the civil government determines that the child would not be brought up in the right religious environment. Those that doubt me on this should read up on the case Edgardo Mortara, who was rescued as a six-year-old boy from his Jewish parents by Blessed Pope Pius IX.

How would you feel if a Rabbi seized your child? Catholicism is supposed to hold the family in high regard and respect the role of the parents. To put it bluntly, I am disgusted to hear you say that this kidnapping is something to be admired. Makes it sound like you would be all for forced conversions by any means.

Government has a moral obligation to ensure that children are placed in households where they can learn to develop into morally balanced citizens. The best environment for this is in a Christian household, not an atheist one. Therefore, in charitable defense of a child’s immortal soul, atheists should not be allowed to adopt children.

Government has no such obligation to enforce Christianity, only productive citizenry.

 

[Bella3502]

I’m glad my government has separation of church and state so that one religion is not forced upon its citizens.

Each adoption case needs to be looked at individually, in a detailed manner. Most atheists determine their value system/morals based upon reason and rationale of what is best for the whole, not an “arbitrary list of cultural conventions”. You make it sound like the list of what is good and bad changes every day an atheist wakes up.

How would you feel if a Rabbi seized your child? Catholicism is supposed to hold the family in high regard and respect the role of the parents. To put it bluntly, I am disgusted to hear you say that this kidnapping is something to be admired. Makes it sound like you would be all for forced conversions by any means.

Government has no such obligation to enforce Christianity, only productive citizenry.

AMEN!!!

 

[IanBoyd57]

This is a ridiculous question. Of course, absolutely and obviously atheists should be allowed to adopt just as christians should be allowed to adopt.

You should all be embarassed of such unabashed intolerance, stereotyping, bigotry, and religious based hatred.

What a terrible thing to say.

You are adults living in the 21st century.

If I was an arrogant, pompous, ego centric jerk I could use the folowing statistics to argue that Christians shouldn’t be able to adopt, however, I would never take such a morally reprehensible position. I mean, it’s no different than saying black people shouldn’t be able to adopt. But anyway, onto facts:

Divorce Rates by Religion

Jews 30%
Born Again Christians 27%
Other Christians 24%
Atheists, Agnostics 21%

Prison Population Rates by Religion

Atheist Population 2%
Atheists in Prison .33%

Christian Population 75%
Christians in Prison 75%

Now it is very important to note something.

I would never use these stats to suggest that Christians are unfit parents. I would never use their religion to discriminate against them. I would not use their sexual orientation either, just like I would not use their race, sex, or class.

I put out these numbers to refute the stereotype that atheists are immoral and evil.

I think that deep down, you guys all know that atheists aren’t evil. You may arrogantly claim that they are diseased, but you know they are not killing people left and right.

The only criteria we should ever, ever judge another human being by must be the content of his character.

Anything else is truly evil, and such discrimination would, in my opinion, make you unfit to adopt children.

After all, this world is never going to unite and be brothers, to solve the problems of the world, if we have such petty, ignorant, irrational hatred and bigotry against groups of people.

We expect to conquer the cosmos, but how can we accept aliens if we can’t even accept people from the same species who just have a different mindset?

Why is this philosophy so threatening?

Would you try to stop Libertarians from being able to adopt? What about the Green Party members?

Why, then, could discrimination against people for their lack of religious convictions ever be justified?

As is typical of these forums, the ignorance, irrationality, fear, and outright hatred of these forums make me simultaneously laugh, and cry.

Sources for those stats:

religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm
holysmoke.org/hs00/prison.htm
skepticfiles.org/american/prison.htm
atheistempire.com/reference/stats/main.html

 

[Mirdath]

Mirdath, while I don’t know whether or not catholic adoption agencies should discriminate based on religion - I don’t think that they should anyway condon sinful behavior (namely homosexuality). In fact I would rather that the catholic adoption agencies in the US close than be strong armed into moral relativism or moral pluralism. If the government can’t respect our beliefs - well then why should we try to fix society’s ills? I guess this isn’t too charitable but that is how I feel. Plain and simply we can take our business elsewhere.

The government respects your beliefs just as much as it respects mine: it doesn’t let either of us impose conversion as a prerequisite to doing business with the other.

If you guys want to take your ball and go home rather than deal with other people, that’s your right too – but think of how much good you could be doing! Is Catholic pride worth sacrificing all those children for? If so, you might as well go back to worshiping Moloch, because you’ll be killing them just as surely as if you threw them into the flames with your own hands.

 

[KathleenElsie]

Mirdath, while I don’t know whether or not catholic adoption agencies should discriminate based on religion - I don’t think that they should anyway condon sinful behavior (namely homosexuality). In fact I would rather that the catholic adoption agencies in the US close than be strong armed into moral relativism or moral pluralism. If the government can’t respect our beliefs - well then why should we try to fix society’s ills? I guess this isn’t too charitable but that is how I feel. Plain and simply we can take our business elsewhere.

Catholig

Again I must agree. I also believe that the Catholic agencies should never accept money from the government. Money from the government comes with many many STRINGS.

 

[KathleenElsie]

So a Catholic adoption agency should discriminate on the basis of religion? This is specifically prohibited, as long as they accept government funding – and most of them cannot support themselves without it.

Essentially, you are agreeing that Catholic adoption agencies in the United States should commit suicide. Is this what you want for the children?

I think that the Catholic adoption agencies should remain Catholic. They should be held to the beliefs that Holy Mother Church holds. Definition of a family is a biggie. Religious training in the Catholic Church should be a requirement. Other countries will refuse people of other religions to adopt no exceptions even family.

If we believe that there is no salvation outside of CHRIST and the Holy Catholic Church is the one true Church how can we send a small soul into a home that we know (atheists, agnostics, etc) will not provide the religious education to go to heaven for eternity?

Don’t take government money it comes with “strings”. Make adoption easier for those willing to add to their Catholic families by waving the fees for Catholic families. Catholic Charities needs to become Catholic again.

 

[Jwlynas]

As an atheist myself I feel I must point out two things.

One > we are not sociopaths with nothing holding us back from evil but our preferences. We just choose to use pure logic and reasoning over logic and reasoning based on archaic views.

Two > for a person to truly accept God as the right answer surely they should have chosen God, rather than have God chosen for them? Therefore it could be argued that a christian couple should be disallowed adoption as it makes christianity a rule of the household rather than a spiritual choice. Its not a good argument, but it could be used.

Of course atheists should be allowed to adopt. As should any parents who have trouble having thier own children, after they have had a background check to look at real concerns for suitability. Like alcohol/drug abuse, mental disorders or criminal records.

 

[KathleenElsie]

It may be tempting to say that an atheist, while disbelieving in the existence of God is still capable of living virtuously, while the facially equivalent example of a person with same-sex attractions cannot. This might imply for some that an atheist household may be an appropriate environment for a child to grow and develop in. This line of reasoning is faulty for several reasons.

To begin with, this nation was founded upon Christian principles and ideas about human dignity that simply do not exist in religions or cultures outside the Judeo-Christian tradition. It therefore stands to reason that the government has a palpable interest in seeing that the next generation is raised in an environment where the child will stand the best possible chance of being raised with those values.

This is something that cannot be overstated. SOME Atheists lack any kind of morality that cannot ultimately be boiled down to personal preference. Morality for some is considered thus. Not all. A child needs to be raised in an environment that cements the idea that morality is static, not subjective. The child needs to be discouraged from viewing moral precepts as something that is merely an arbitrary list of cultural conventions. The environment best suited to do this will always be one in which the parents are both orthodox Christians. As a Catholic IMHO the child is better placed in a home that will provide for the whole child. Religious, educational and most of all loved. (If the religious side of the child is ignored then the child IMHO is not loved as it should be. We are on this world for a limited time and in Heaven or Hell forever.)

Even the Church recognizes that the faith of a child’s parents is of such import that a child may be removed from the household of even biological parents if the civil government determines that the child would not be brought up in the right religious environment. Those that doubt me on this should read up on the case Edgardo Mortara, who was rescued as a six-year-old boy from his Jewish parents by Blessed Pope Pius IX. Edgardo stated that even when he was removed from his home he had no desire to return to them. He could not explain why just that he had no desire. The times were in flux and it was just pre-WWII Europe. I would never agree with this type of removal of a biological child unless his physical life was in danger. Yet, God blessed him and used him in positive ways.

Government has a moral obligation to ensure that children are placed in households where they can learn to develop into morally balanced citizens. Government has no rights to aour children unless we give them rights to them. Government is not moral as it is a thing not a living soul. The best environment for this is in a Christian household, not an atheist one. Therefore, in charitable defense of a child’s immortal soul, atheists should not be allowed to adopt children.

You will get many replies from Catholics, athiests and agnostics that will say you are wrong.

 

[Catholig]

The government respects your beliefs just as much as it respects mine: it doesn’t let either of us impose conversion as a prerequisite to doing business with the other.

If you guys want to take your ball and go home rather than deal with other people, that’s your right too – but think of how much good you could be doing! Is Catholic pride worth sacrificing all those children for? If so, you might as well go back to worshiping Moloch, because you’ll be killing them just as surely as if you threw them into the flames with your own hands.

The government doesn’t respect our beliefs if it makes it a hate crime to “discriminate against homosexuals” (don’t read as “violence” because that isn’t it. It is often things like not wanting to put a child into that sort of a home or to hire someone who is living an openly homosexual lifestyle - you know someone you probably will be forced to see every day).

And as to your argument about throwing the kids to Moloch or whatever - well, if that is what the government wants then that is what will happen. I mean - do I want to empathise with those people in orphanages? Yes. But do I think that the government should force us into disregarding our beliefs - no.

Catholig

 

[Mirdath]

The government doesn’t respect our beliefs if it makes it a hate crime to “discriminate against homosexuals” (don’t read as “violence” because that isn’t it. It is often things like not wanting to put a child into that sort of a home or to hire someone who is living an openly homosexual lifestyle - you know someone you probably will be forced to see every day).

Or not wanting to seat them at restaurants, or making them sit in the back of the bus, or making them use separate water fountains? Is discrimination against homosexuals a core tenet of Catholicism? Not last I checked: belief that homosexual acts are wrong is a fairly minor one jumped up, belief that you get to treat homosexuals as less than fully human is not one at all.

If a gay guy or a lesbian can do your accounting better than all the straight applicants you’ve gotten, are you going to settle for second-rate books because you don’t like his or her choice of partner? Are you going to extend this policy to heterosexuals and require you meet and approve of their significant others or spouses before hiring? Or are you going to swallow your prejudice and your pride and get a really good accountant?

And as to your argument about throwing the kids to Moloch or whatever - well, if that is what the government wants then that is what will happen. I mean - do I want to empathise with those people in orphanages? Yes. But do I think that the government should force us into disregarding our beliefs - no.

The government is simply looking out for everyone’s interests. If the Catholic Church wants to put our modern Samaritans back in their place and consider only other Catholics their neighbors, then the gates of hell have truly prevailed against it.

 

[Catholig]

Or not wanting to seat them at restaurants, or making them sit in the back of the bus, or making them use separate water fountains? Is discrimination against homosexuals a core tenet of Catholicism? Not last I checked: belief that homosexual acts are wrong is a fairly minor one jumped up, belief that you get to treat homosexuals as less than fully human is not one at all.

There’s quite a bit of difference between not wanting to adopt a child out into a homosexual home because the lifestyle there is sinful, and not wanting to “seat them at restaurants, or making them sit in the back of the bus” or whatever comparisons you have. There is also a difference between something that cannot be controled such as skin color and a concious choice to engage in sinful behavior.

If a gay guy or a lesbian can do your accounting better than all the straight applicants you’ve gotten, are you going to settle for second-rate books because you don’t like his or her choice of partner? Are you going to extend this policy to heterosexuals and require you meet and approve of their significant others or spouses before hiring? Or are you going to swallow your prejudice and your pride and get a really good accountant?

The way I see it if a Catholic applicant could do the job reasonably well I’d probably hire him, however I doubt that I’d hire the homosexual applicant.

The government is simply looking out for everyone’s interests. If the Catholic Church wants to put our modern Samaritans back in their place and consider only other Catholics their neighbors, then the gates of hell have truly prevailed against it.

I disagree - the Church tells everyone what is moral and what is immoral and you should not in anyway show support for something that is immoral. Maybe hiring is one of those things that wouldn’t fall into that category - I admit it, however I feel that the government has no business forcing anyone to hire someone. If you own the business then you should be able to decide who you hire.

Catholig

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

The way I see it if a Catholic applicant could do the job reasonably well I’d probably hire him, however I doubt that I’d hire the homosexual applicant.

If the real reasons are known, the latter applicant would have a case against you, the employer. Besides, I do believe that religion and sexual preference questions are not supposed to be asked anyways during interviews or on an application.

 

[Catholig]

If the real reasons are known, the latter applicant would have a case against you, the employer. Besides, I do believe that religion and sexual preference questions are not supposed to be asked anyways during interviews or on an application.

Yes, so in fact the government is not allowing me to hire my own bookkeeper. I can’t decide that I’d rather help out someone at my parish by giving him a job - no I’ll have to give it to someone who is openly contradicting the Church, and who could be involved in groups that do things such as hold mock weddings or throw condoms at the altar.

Catholig

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

Yes, so in fact the government is not allowing me to hire my own bookkeeper. I can’t decide that I’d rather help out someone at my parish by giving him a job - no I’ll have to give it to someone who is openly contradicting the Church, and who could be involved in groups that do things such as hold mock weddings or throw condoms at the altar.

Catholig

The end of your post sounds very, very unrealistic.

 

[Catholig]

The end of your post sounds very, very unrealistic.

Not really. I believe that the applicant would be involved in some homosexual organization - for identity or whatever. And odds are that this organization would make fun of and ridicule anyone who disagrees with them - I mean there’ve been gay pride parades where nuns are mocked, and its happened that gays have entered churches to preform mock marriage protests. And yes they have thrown condoms at the altar.

In any case - I guess the point is that one should be able to choose his employees.

Catholig

 

[Mirdath]

The way I see it if a Catholic applicant could do the job reasonably well I’d probably hire him, however I doubt that I’d hire the homosexual applicant.

Will you demand to meet the spouse or SO of every prospect, even those who say they’re straight, so you can check that their genitalia match up – you know, just in case – and figure out if you approve of the applicant’s choice of partner enough to consider employing him or her?

It’d only be fair.

 

[KarenNC]

Not really. I believe that the applicant would be involved in some homosexual organization - for identity or whatever. And odds are that this organization would make fun of and ridicule anyone who disagrees with them - I mean there’ve been gay pride parades where nuns are mocked, and its happened that gays have entered churches to preform mock marriage protests. And yes they have thrown condoms at the altar.

Let’s see how it might sound to apply this reasoning to another group, say, Catholics:

I should refuse to hire a Catholic, because after all, they worship statues rather than God like you are supposed to (might set one up in the office and start burning incense to it–who knows what he might do)–I’ve seen it for myself. I believe they would be involved in some Catholic group like Opus Dei (I saw Da Vinci Code, after all)–for identity or whatever. And the odds are that this Catholic group would make fun of or ridicule anyone who disagrees with them (I’ve read a lot of that at the Non-Catholic Religions Forum right here).

And they are violent— there have been Catholic priests who have abused children and Catholics who burned Protestant churches, assaulted a Protestant minister and burned his motorbike in East Timor in 2000 just because some boys made fun of a Catholic procession*. Physical attacks on Protestants by Catholics forced Belfast to set up separate bus stops in 2002.** If one of them does it, then all of them are likely to do it at any given moment, right? There’s no telling what one might do if one of my other employees walked in wearing a cross rather than a crucifix. My insurance doesn’t cover that! Heck, Catholics made up 18% of the prison population in Texas in 1999 and 30% of the NY prison population in 2003.***

*reliefweb.int/rw/RWB.NSF/db900SID/OCHA-64BSY5?OpenDocument
PROTESTANT CHURCHES BURNED IN LEQUIDOE

Three Protestant churches were burned last week in the villages of Name Lesso, Fahisoi and Berilau in Lequidoe, a sub-district of Aileu. The Protestant pastor of Berilau was physically assaulted and his motorbike burned. The incident was apparently sparked off when Protestant youths jeered at a Catholic procession. In East Timor, the whole month of June is dedicated to the Sacred Heart of Jesus and nightly processions are a common occurrence. Civilian Police in Aileu is investigating the incidents and have called all parties to exercise religious tolerance. The Catholic priest in the area referred to the incident in last Sunday’s sermon and called for reconciliation between Protestants and the Catholics. The sub-district chief of Lequidoe will be organizing a reconciliation meeting today, 16 June, with the help of UNTAET’s civilian staff in Aileu.

** findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_20020303/ai_n12836354

***adherents.com/misc/adh_prison.html and
nysl.nysed.gov/uhtbin/cgisirsi/eK2pf9iMsT/NYSL/28770095/523/69493

 

[Catholig]

Will you demand to meet the spouse or SO of every prospect, even those who say they’re straight, so you can check that their genitalia match up – you know, just in case – and figure out if you approve of the applicant’s choice of partner enough to consider employing him or her?

It’d only be fair.

Well that’s a dumb exaggeration - no I don’t think I’d need to meet anyone’s spouse - however if I see someone who is openly gay (say he interviewed instead of just sending in an application) I don’t think I’d hire him.

Catholig