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Spirithound
Guest
This answer only works if, in fact, marijuana should be legalized. If there are good reasons behind its criminalization, there are no financial reasons that can justify its legalization.
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exnihilo
Guest
I think activities should be legal by default. You should only criminalize something if there is a compelling reason. So what is the compelling reason for criminalizing marijuana? Is it to stop people from smoking it? Well that has failed and been a hugely costly failure. Is it to keep it away from kids? Any kid can buy weed quite easily probably in his government school he attends. So what is the compelling reason?
And this issue cant possibly rise to the level of moral wrongs like theft. That being so a more utilitarian analysis might make sense. I dont see anything greatly wrong with marijuana. And neither do a lot of other folks. The ridiculousness of the law only makes a mockery of the law itself. It is kinda like issuing an empty threat to your kid. It doesn’t do anything but undermine your own authority.
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Robert_Sock
Guest
In addition to making you stupid, pot also acts as a dis-inhibitor whereby unconscious desires and fantasies get acted out. This is morally wrong to engage in, and is a sin when acted upon.
“It’s only teenage wasteland”
–Pete Townshend
“It’s only teenage wasteland”
–Pete Townshend
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sharptiger999
Guest
Councils and courts don’t recognize the word “sin” in public debate.
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Rand2410
Guest
Where do you get this stuff? I’ve more people loose their inhibitions when under the influence of alcohol. Mj does not have the same effects as LSD. You seem very opinionated and not well educated on this topic.
Question: Is it morally wrong for an obese person to eat more than the FDA recommended amount of calories per day?
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exnihilo
Guest
Actually I’m not sure that marijuana really lowers inhibitions that much. It certainly does not like alcohol or common prescription drugs.
The problem with incorrect assertions about the nature of a drug is that it causes people to lose respect for you argument. If you are dishonest with kids and tell them that marijuana is a terrible drug when they know otherwise they lose respect. Once they realize they were not told the truth regarding marijuana they are less likely to believe you regarding harder drugs that really are dangerous. There are plenty of good arguments you can that one should avoid taking intoxicants or at least be very judicious with them.
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Robert_Sock
Guest
Smoking pot most certainly causes you to loose your inhibitions. Pot as a prelude to sex is but one simple, but common, example.
As for your other question an whether it’s moral for an obese person to overeat, well not necessarily due to the fact that obese people may have unseen factors that cause them to overeat. What does this have to do with the legalization of pot?
“It’s only teenage wasteland”
–Pete Townshend
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Rand2410
Guest
I disagree with you Robert because I have seen first hand more people loose their inhibitions due to the improper use of alcohol more than any other drug. I will say that different drugs effect different people sometimes in different ways. Inexperienced users of any drug including tobacco and caffeine can abuse the given substance and act ‘out of character’. Smoking MJ is not like what is depicted in the 1950’s “Reffer Maddness”.
Personally I don’t think MJ should be legal, just decriminalized for cultivation and possession for personal use only, just like beer and wine. I am keen on cultivation because I would like to grow MJ for my own use and this would help to insure the purity of the final product , as in no pesticides or chemical additives.
We can agree to disagree, that’s fine with me.
Please note I have been a daily user for many years and have not experienced this loss of inhibitions. The first time I had sex was after using alcohol. It is my opinion that more people would attribute the use of alcohol to their first sexual encounter than MJ.
I guess the point I was trying to make with obese people is that the body they have been given by God is sacred and they should work to improve their health out of respect for God.
( Sorry , poor choice of scenarios. )
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Aelred_Minor
Guest
Well, I’ll give my opinion on the morality of drinking alcohol and then look at how the same concepts would apply to marijuana.
It seems to me that there are three main ways in which consuming alcohol could be sinful: illegality, irresponsibility, and gluttony.
Illegality is the easiest, which is why I put it first. If drinking alcohol, or drinking it in a particular way is illegal for you where you live (because you are under the legal drinking age, for example, or in a moving vehicle), then drinking it in violation of that law shows contempt for legitimate authority. It’s true we are not obliged to obey unjust laws, but denying classes of people alcohol or limiting the settings in which one may drink does not violate any moral law I am aware of. We might question whether the government should ideally get so involved in our eating and drinking habits, but I don’t think there’s any question that it has the authority to if it makes that decision.
Irresponsibility would mean consuming alcohol in a matter (quantity, timing, etc.) that puts you or others in some kind of danger, whether physical, moral, relational, etc. It would be irrational and thus immoral to drink and drive, or to drink in a socially inappropriate setting, or to drink to the point that you may well commit sins you never otherwise would have, or to seriously endanger your health through your drinking.
Gluttony is the most difficult of the three to pin down, because it is the most subjective. The primary consideration here is your motivation for drinking, though excessive quantity may well result from having bad motivations. Drinking a beer with your hamburger at the sports bar is a normal, rational, presumably non-gluttonous thing. You are using the beer as a beverage, for refreshment and to help down the burger, which in turn is being eaten for sustenance. When taking shots of liquor or shotgunning a beer one has, ordinarily at least, isolated drinking from its natural purpose of refreshment or aiding in eating and have made the incidental pleasures of the action the sole purpose for engaging in it. Even if you don’t actually drink an excessive amount in such a case, you have passed beyond the lines of reason in your manner of and motivation for drinking. Alcoholic beverages are first and formost beverages, and should be used as such, even if there are secondary reasons why you have chosen that particular beverage out of many possibilities, like the enjoyment you get from its taste and alcohol.
In the case of marijuana, in places it is illegal that closes the possibility of its morality right there. But this thread is about whether it should be made legal not whether it is legal, so we should look at the other factors.
The issue of irresponsibility would be essentially the same as for alcohol. Smoking the drug and then driving would still mean driving while ability-impaired, and so would be irrational and immoral risk taking. If consuming a given amount significantly increases the chances you will commit a sin (especially a mortal sin) that also could make using it immoral. But if it is possible to take in the drug in such a way as to avoid these dangers, then it’s time to move on to the next subject.
Again, gluttony is the most subjective of these criteria so it can be difficult. To discern whether something is gluttonous, we should first look at what, if anything, is the rational use for the thing which we might become gluttonous about. One rational use for marijuana would be to ease symptoms and spur appetites of cancer patients and other ill people. In this case it would act like many good, moral prescription drugs. As long as it is legal, actually effective, and the risks (both to the individual and to society) don’t outweigh the benefits, I see nothing wrong with the medical use of marijuana.
But what about the non-medical use of marijuana? What is the rational purpose for it that could be replaced by pure selfish pleasure-seeking? One poster mentioned using it to help him get to sleep, analogous to a sleeping pill. I suppose this could be a valid use, but it could ultimately be classified as a medical use. What about just smoking or otherwise consuming the drug for pleasure? It seems to me that, in the case of smoking at least, that the action cannot be done except in a gluttonous manner. Perhaps one could make an argument that adding it to food would be very closely analogous to having alcohol in beverages. Maybe so, but in those cases the person should be consuming the food primarily for the sake of nourishment, not as a drug. Is this the way it’s really often done in practice?
It seems to me that there are three main ways in which consuming alcohol could be sinful: illegality, irresponsibility, and gluttony.
Illegality is the easiest, which is why I put it first. If drinking alcohol, or drinking it in a particular way is illegal for you where you live (because you are under the legal drinking age, for example, or in a moving vehicle), then drinking it in violation of that law shows contempt for legitimate authority. It’s true we are not obliged to obey unjust laws, but denying classes of people alcohol or limiting the settings in which one may drink does not violate any moral law I am aware of. We might question whether the government should ideally get so involved in our eating and drinking habits, but I don’t think there’s any question that it has the authority to if it makes that decision.
Irresponsibility would mean consuming alcohol in a matter (quantity, timing, etc.) that puts you or others in some kind of danger, whether physical, moral, relational, etc. It would be irrational and thus immoral to drink and drive, or to drink in a socially inappropriate setting, or to drink to the point that you may well commit sins you never otherwise would have, or to seriously endanger your health through your drinking.
Gluttony is the most difficult of the three to pin down, because it is the most subjective. The primary consideration here is your motivation for drinking, though excessive quantity may well result from having bad motivations. Drinking a beer with your hamburger at the sports bar is a normal, rational, presumably non-gluttonous thing. You are using the beer as a beverage, for refreshment and to help down the burger, which in turn is being eaten for sustenance. When taking shots of liquor or shotgunning a beer one has, ordinarily at least, isolated drinking from its natural purpose of refreshment or aiding in eating and have made the incidental pleasures of the action the sole purpose for engaging in it. Even if you don’t actually drink an excessive amount in such a case, you have passed beyond the lines of reason in your manner of and motivation for drinking. Alcoholic beverages are first and formost beverages, and should be used as such, even if there are secondary reasons why you have chosen that particular beverage out of many possibilities, like the enjoyment you get from its taste and alcohol.
In the case of marijuana, in places it is illegal that closes the possibility of its morality right there. But this thread is about whether it should be made legal not whether it is legal, so we should look at the other factors.
The issue of irresponsibility would be essentially the same as for alcohol. Smoking the drug and then driving would still mean driving while ability-impaired, and so would be irrational and immoral risk taking. If consuming a given amount significantly increases the chances you will commit a sin (especially a mortal sin) that also could make using it immoral. But if it is possible to take in the drug in such a way as to avoid these dangers, then it’s time to move on to the next subject.
Again, gluttony is the most subjective of these criteria so it can be difficult. To discern whether something is gluttonous, we should first look at what, if anything, is the rational use for the thing which we might become gluttonous about. One rational use for marijuana would be to ease symptoms and spur appetites of cancer patients and other ill people. In this case it would act like many good, moral prescription drugs. As long as it is legal, actually effective, and the risks (both to the individual and to society) don’t outweigh the benefits, I see nothing wrong with the medical use of marijuana.
But what about the non-medical use of marijuana? What is the rational purpose for it that could be replaced by pure selfish pleasure-seeking? One poster mentioned using it to help him get to sleep, analogous to a sleeping pill. I suppose this could be a valid use, but it could ultimately be classified as a medical use. What about just smoking or otherwise consuming the drug for pleasure? It seems to me that, in the case of smoking at least, that the action cannot be done except in a gluttonous manner. Perhaps one could make an argument that adding it to food would be very closely analogous to having alcohol in beverages. Maybe so, but in those cases the person should be consuming the food primarily for the sake of nourishment, not as a drug. Is this the way it’s really often done in practice?
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Rand2410
Guest
Extremely well said sir. Thank you for this post. Your analogy equating the recreational use of “drugs” as a gluttonous activity was excellent.
I would still like this plant and its cultivation and possession decriminalized. I am not so sure making MJ completely legal, at this time, is a good idea. I know we need the tax revenue, but there is too much chaos in our country and in our world. I think the State legislatures should decide / enact / enforce their own laws. If you need MJ for a medical reason, you may have to relocate to a place that allows you that type of treatment. It’s not a perfect solution, only my opinion.
Thank you.
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Robert_Sock
Guest
Not sure this was ever brought up before, but I strongly feel that pot is psychologically addicting.
“It’s only teenage wasteland”
–Pete Townshend
“It’s only teenage wasteland”
–Pete Townshend
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Rand2410
Guest
I believe addiction would be dependent upon the individual and how/why the drug is being used. Having said that, I believe a case can be made for certain people to become dependent upon MJ. In my mind this is just like people that become psychologically addicted to other medications(sleeping pills). I do not believe MJ is more or less psychologically addicting than other drugs. There are risks as with any “medication”.
I partially agree with Roberts statement. This is one reason I believe full legalization is not a good idea at this time in our countries history. But, as somewhat of a Libertarian I believe in personal choice.
I still stand by my original position asking for decriminalization for cultivation, possession and personal consumption. I would like Dr’s to have the ability to prescribe this drug as a first course of action, not a last resort.
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exnihilo
Guest
I dont disagree with the idea that impaired ability increases the risk of others on the road. But lots of things harm driving ability including simple things like turning to look at the scenery. People get pretty indignant about drinkers or smokers driving but ignore all the many things they do that increase their risk to others. People often say we’ll be surprised in Heaven. Well many teetotaler drivers might be surprised that they weren’t so saintly after all.
I’m not sure I get your argument. Are you saying that anything that is done for pleasure is bad? Is relaxation bad? Intoxication might be bad but you have to be careful not to draw in pleasure itself. I dont think we are prohibited from all worldly pleasure.
From my point of view the idea of having to have a doctor prescribe medicine to you is wrong. It is interesting how much our modern culture influences our thinking. The American people lost the freedom to choose what medicines they take. You now are required to have a doctor’s permission to use many medicines. At one time we did have the freedom to choose what medicines we could take. The modern idea of prescriptions is so far an aberration not a rule.
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Publisher
Guest
I see no reason why it should not be legalized for medical use. I have been a hospice volunteer…served several years…but eventually took a rest…“burn out”…however I have personally seen the benefits with those patients who suffer chronic pain due to cancer or AIDS.
The UC Davis students have made MJ cultivation an art form. There are now strains of MJ specifically cultivated to relieve pain. There are strains specifically cultivated to relieve stress or depression…to enhance the appetite and decrease nausea…which comes in handy when one is undergoing chemo or takes large quantites of AIDS drugs which cause severe heaches and loss of appetite…for many hospice patients who use MJ to control their pain, appetite, anxiety and depression…they are a God-send.
I am for legalization.
The UC Davis students have made MJ cultivation an art form. There are now strains of MJ specifically cultivated to relieve pain. There are strains specifically cultivated to relieve stress or depression…to enhance the appetite and decrease nausea…which comes in handy when one is undergoing chemo or takes large quantites of AIDS drugs which cause severe heaches and loss of appetite…for many hospice patients who use MJ to control their pain, appetite, anxiety and depression…they are a God-send.
I am for legalization.
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Rock_Happy
Guest
My 87 year old grandmother who is in a lot of pain eats a marijuana cookie which she bakes herself each night before bed. She has been on much stronger prescription drugs. The marijuana is a milder drug, and works better than anything else she has tried for sleep.
I think it is stupid to smoke it unless you have a medical reason, because it affects the memory center of the brain by binding to two specific receptors. There is a fertilizer on the market which is a synthetic cannabinoid which works in the same way, but may be more dangerous which is becoming popular due to it undetectability on standard drug screening tests.
As for intoxication, if you oppose marijuana then you must oppose alcohol and all other recreational intoxicants such as tobacco, if you don’t want to be a hypocrite.
I think it is stupid to smoke it unless you have a medical reason, because it affects the memory center of the brain by binding to two specific receptors. There is a fertilizer on the market which is a synthetic cannabinoid which works in the same way, but may be more dangerous which is becoming popular due to it undetectability on standard drug screening tests.
As for intoxication, if you oppose marijuana then you must oppose alcohol and all other recreational intoxicants such as tobacco, if you don’t want to be a hypocrite.
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PeterGStanley
Guest
I think all drugs should be legalized - drug enforcement is a failed policy and has never worked and never will be successful.
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Rock_Happy
Guest
My brother is a cop. He and all of his friends which I have discussed that matter with are not far from that opinion. The drug laws in the US are lunacy. We imprison more people per capita than China. Some countries treat drug addicts like people instead like criminals.
How about… gov’t clinics (part of our national healthcare system) provide addicts with safe drugs and clean syringes. In order to get the drugs, they may need a medical check up. They are also offered the opportunity for counseling and help to solve their drug problem.
Turns out that such a system is cheaper than incarcerating people. It also reduces crime since the addict gets free drugs. It also reduces drug addiction rates, as the there is constant contact to offer help. It also does not dehumanize and degrade the addict.
How is that, for following Christian principles? Compassion and charity for people who are suffering.
How about… gov’t clinics (part of our national healthcare system) provide addicts with safe drugs and clean syringes. In order to get the drugs, they may need a medical check up. They are also offered the opportunity for counseling and help to solve their drug problem.
Turns out that such a system is cheaper than incarcerating people. It also reduces crime since the addict gets free drugs. It also reduces drug addiction rates, as the there is constant contact to offer help. It also does not dehumanize and degrade the addict.
How is that, for following Christian principles? Compassion and charity for people who are suffering.
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Robert_Sock
Guest
When it comes to abortion, the vast majority of Catholics say that it should be outlawed because it is so sinful. Given this fact, why not keep sinful drugs, like pot, illegal? Note that we are not allowed to do to our bodies whatever we like. If pot is indeed necessary for medical purposes, it should be dispensed through drug stores like other medicine.
“It’s only teenage wasteland”
–Pete Townshend
“It’s only teenage wasteland”
–Pete Townshend
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Spirithound
Guest
You cannot just take an illegal action and make it legal for economic purposes. You must deal with the actual reasoning underlying the law.
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Rand2410
Guest
Yes you can. The US Government made alcohol illegal and then made it legal again for the purpose of tax revenue. Why do you believe the MJ issue is that different?
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