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batman1973
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Gotcha
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CopticChristian
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Serap,
They should probably join that Church that the Protestants tell us that went Apostate in the 16th Century.
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AlltheRoses
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In my opinion, nobody should go apostate, and I don’t think that we should hope that anyone should leave the Church. I think, instead, that we should try to bring Cafeteria Catholics back into proper communion with the Church and help them to arrive at a better understanding of what the Church teaches and why, so that they can accept the Eucharist worthily during Mass.
It’s always a tragedy when people fall away from the Church, and I think it’s our duty as Catholics to try to keep our fellow Catholics as in communion with and as involved with the Church as possible.
I did my best to fall away during my late teens, and I’m grateful to the people like my mother who did what they could to stop my falling away. I tend to think that Christ has a reason to have everyone who is baptized become a member of His Church. (Even me. I would never have imagined that I’d be vice president of the Catholic organization on my campus when I went off to college, but God has a great sense of humor.
) Who are we to say that the Church would be better off without anyone?That’s just my two cents…
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sw85
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This is a very strange post. I see nothing in the OP that constitutes impatience with the sins of cafeteria Catholics. It seems to me simply to be asking a prudential question: whether it is better for those who will not to be reconciled to the Church to remain within it or to leave. Having such a prudential conversation doesn’t amount to “wondering about whether other people deserve to be part of the Church.” That’s a pretty gross misrepresentation of the OP’s relatively vanilla question.
Sure, it’s true that cafeteria Catholics who stay in the Church might be reconciled to it eventually. It’s also true they might be reconciled to it if they leave – in fact I hear many more stories of the latter than of the former (though, in fairness, those people of the former type are probably less likely to speak about it). It’s strange to me that we all talk as if people leaving the Church is some kind of immediate and irreversible spiritual death sentence when we all know it’s not true and there’s no reason to believe it. In the meantime, these kinds of questions are worth discussing – even if they will probably never have an impact on anything – because it’s not as if at least some cafeteria Catholics aren’t harming people. No one lives in a soteriological vacuum, and when someone like Nancy Pelosi gets on the airwaves and boldly announces that the “right” to abortion (which was literally invented like 40 years ago) is perfectly consistent with Catholic teachings, she’s scandalizing people – Catholic and non-Catholic alike. Would it be better for her to stay in the Church or leave it, given the damage she’s doing to the faith, and given that the probability of repentance is probably not substantially different from outside the Church than it would be from inside it (and is probably closer to 0 than 1 in any case)? That’s a prudential question and people are allowed to ask it without getting reflexively bludgeoned by the PC police.
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1AugustSon7
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In a certain sense, they already are.
They have lost the supernatural virtue of Faith. The argument can be made that they were never taught it; however, all that means is that they were never presented with the object of Faith and, consequently, never had the Faith to begin with. Such is a tragedy of ineffable proportions, and the guilt falls more heavily on those responsible for their immortal souls. Nonetheless, every human being has a positive duty, written on their very hearts, to worship God and give Him thanks, as well as to seek out His truth and abide by it.
'Our souls are restless until they rest in Christ…’
As the Bishop of Hippo so wonderfully observed. There is no escaping this restlessness - not, at least, without Christ. Indeed: it can be ignored, appeased for a moment with some counterfeit or even deliberately resisted, but never escaped from.
All men seek their happiness, and only the True God can give us that happiness - that restiveness in His peace - and, when we have Him, then are we rather spurned on to holiness and virtue, and this becomes our holy pleasure.
“Seek ye therefore first the kingdom of God, and his justice, and all these things shall be added unto you.”
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hn160
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From the Catholics that I know and from the Catholic politicians that see and read about in the news, I could become Catholic because they pick and choose what Catholic Church teaching they want to believe and uphold such as abortion, homosexual marriage and adoption to name a few. Look at Nancy Pelosi, Vice President Biden and the Late Ted Kennedy. I don’t support any of those positions. Were any of those politicians denied Communion?
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KateKimmer
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no, of course they weren’t denied communion. They haven’t done anything wrong in their eyes. (sarcasm)
really makes me HIGHLY annoyed.
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Della
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Here we’d be getting into another topic. But to stick to the present one, if you are implying that they are bad public examples of what Catholics ought to be saying and doing, I agree with you. No one ever said Catholics couldn’t be sinners, even grave sinners. Grave sin doesn’t automatically disconnect anyone from the Church, it does disconnect them from receiving communion, but even here it is up to the person presenting himself for communion to know if he is disposed to receive or not. It is not the duty of the one distributing communion to judge recipients hearts and minds nor can they know if recipients have been to confession.
People can become so caught up in the world, the flesh and the devil that they cannot see that what they are saying and doing are wrong. Saul was a devout Jew who followed the Law to the letter, and yet he was so blind literal scales fell from his eyes after he encountered Christ.
It is the duty of any Christian to help his brother know and understand the truth. Doing so is a delicate operation that requires a scalpel not a sledgehammer, and needs to be done at the direction of one’s spiritual advisor, with God’s love for the other, in full knowledge and discernment and in no way relished but undertaken with the greatest humility for every person is a soul for whom Christ died and must be given his dignity and be treated with the same love Christ gave us upon the cross.
So, it’s not a task anyone should undertake who just wants to jump on others or who delights in showing up others (not that you or anyone here has such an intention), but prayerfully and softly as a mother tenderly guides her child not as the PC police for religious matters.
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stephe1987
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The “Cafeteria Catholics” are in a grave state of mortal sin because they take Communion unworthily. And the sin of pride is blinding them from the truth and preventing them from actually learning what the Catholic Church teaches. Many of them even lie about what the Church teaches at times. Very sad, and we need to pray that their pride will fade and they’ll repent before they die or else they’re in big trouble.
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odile53
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Amen, brother! Something about dealing with the plank in our own eye first comes to mind!
I don’t think that anyone, if they really stopped to think about it, would want to banish our fellow Catholics from the Church, even the C and E (Christmas, Easter, and funerals) Catholics, the so called cafeteria Catholics, etc. I understand that it’s frustrating, and sometimes even scandalous, to deal with these people, but if we can’t manage to do so in a spirit of charity and education (you’d be surprised what most casual Catholics don’t know about their faith,) maybe we should just shut up and be nice to them.
Giving good example frequently produces the most surprising changes in some of the most unlikely people, in case nobody’s noticed.
When I find myself feeling outraged about something like this, I ask myself if I really want to stand before the Throne of God some day and have to explain to Him precisely why I thought it would be a good idea to chase away other sinners from the font of His mercy!
Nope, nope, don’t wanna go there!
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sw85
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Again, the OP isn’t asking if anyone should be expelled or chased away from the Church. He is simply asking a prudential question: whether it is better for Catholics who refuse to be in communion with the Church, in the long run, to remain in the Church or to leave it.Amen, brother! Something about dealing with the plank in our own eye first comes to mind!
I don’t think that anyone, if they really stopped to think about it, would want to banish our fellow Catholics from the Church, even the C and E (Christmas, Easter, and funerals) Catholics, the so called cafeteria Catholics, etc. I understand that it’s frustrating, and sometimes even scandalous, to deal with these people, but if we can’t manage to do so in a spirit of charity and education (you’d be surprised what most casual Catholics don’t know about their faith,) maybe we should just shut up and be nice to them.
Giving good example frequently produces the most surprising changes in some of the most unlikely people, in case nobody’s noticed.
When I find myself feeling outraged about something like this, I ask myself if I really want to stand before the Throne of God some day and have to explain to Him precisely why I thought it would be a good idea to chase away other sinners from the font of His mercy!
Nope, nope, don’t wanna go there!
This is something reasonable people can discuss and agree or disagree over without implying a judgment on whether anyone “deserves” or “ought” to be in the Church. No one’s talking about that, and this kind of misrepresentation is both extremely unhelpful and highly uncharitable.
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Della
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Many Catholics are encouraged to leave already by many forces within and without, sad to say. There are plenty of zealous non-Catholics, for instance, who love to draw people out of the Church, but they don’t usually attract those Catholics who are caught up in the norms of society instead of being faithful to the Church’s teachings.
For some Catholics a bit of time spent floundering around outside the protections and orthodoxy of the Church might just make them realize the good they left behind for a “mess of pottage” be that pottage new age or going with the flow or fundamentalism. We have many “reverts” here who can testify to that.
Having said that, though, I wouldn’t tell anyone to leave the Church to “find” themselves, but rather to explore the faith more fully and give mental assent even if they can’t give complete understanding. They should take their questions and concerns to orthodox priests, deacons, religious, and lay people who have the resources to help them. Sadly, most just assume they know enough already/have been convinced by heterodox ideas/think they are going to change the Church, and so won’t do this, and thus the dilemma of cafeteria Catholicism.
For some Catholics a bit of time spent floundering around outside the protections and orthodoxy of the Church might just make them realize the good they left behind for a “mess of pottage” be that pottage new age or going with the flow or fundamentalism. We have many “reverts” here who can testify to that.
Having said that, though, I wouldn’t tell anyone to leave the Church to “find” themselves, but rather to explore the faith more fully and give mental assent even if they can’t give complete understanding. They should take their questions and concerns to orthodox priests, deacons, religious, and lay people who have the resources to help them. Sadly, most just assume they know enough already/have been convinced by heterodox ideas/think they are going to change the Church, and so won’t do this, and thus the dilemma of cafeteria Catholicism.
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Cristiano
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If I am attracted by some woman making a television commercial for Victoria Secretes lingerie, should I start sleeping around even if I still have relations with my wife? I would say that the answer is no and that I should think about changing channel and hoping for success.
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Cristiano
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I think that you are correct with the call to charity and so if I follow your argument to exclude judgement I can say that there is not need for this discussion. The Church is there for the good of people, thus leaving the Church would be harmful, and doing so should be considered unreasonable. Anyone here that has a basic understanding of the need of the Church for salvation should simply say that no matter what, a person has to stick with the Church.
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OraLabora
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The Church is not a resort for the righteous, it is a hospital for sinners.
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nickybr38
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Part of the reason I think it MIGHT be good to take a leave is because it works sometimes to leave our Father’s home and see what the world has to offer outside of His house.
Take for example the prodigal son…
I WAS a prodigal daughter. I left Christianity for several years (in spirit if not in body. I attended a church once a month that I disdained). The Lord eventually called me home but I’m honestly not sure my pride would EVER have been broken if I hadn’t been exposed to life without Christ…
BUT not everyone needs to go that route to grow… Just as a disclaimer in case anyone gets the wrong idea.
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Luna_Lovecraft
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Thank you!
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sw85
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Here’s the thing: when we talk about the Church being necessary for salvation, we don’t just mean insincere profession of allegiance to it. You don’t get saved by going to mass twice a year and receiving communion unworthily. Schism damns souls, but so does heresy and disobedience. The question here isn’t whether the Church is necessary for salvation (no Catholic denies that), but whether the Church has anything to offer those who refuse to obey the Church, and whether those who refuse to obey the Church contribute anything to it by their presence.
Speaking personally, one of the best, holiest, most devout Catholics I know abandoned the Church when he was younger and came back to it after a spell among fundamentalist Protestants. Clearly, both he and the Church are a lot better off for his temporary absence. Which is why I think it’s absurd for people to talk as if leaving the Church automatically brings down death upon your head. Perhaps it’s exactly what a person needs to get his priorities straight. And if a person’s absence can benefit both himself and the Church in the long run, the reverse is probably also true: that a person’s continued presence can harm himself and the Church in the long run. We already see the scandal wrought by mischief-makers like VP Biden or Nancy Pelosi; and the damage they are doing to their own souls by continuing to receive communion, inducing others to sin, and misrepresenting the Church to the world is surely incalculable.
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Della
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The problem is, as I see it, that those who disagree with the Church’s teachings while remaining in it (and teach others to do the same) either don’t know or don’t want to do as the Church directs, but want the Church to accommodate them and their notions.
The Church has gone through this sort of thing in nearly every generation and down through the centuries. It’s really nothing new. Some of our greatest saints spent their lives ministering to ignorant or recalcitrant Catholics rather than to the unchurched and non-Christians.
It can be hard to think of these folks with love, I know. I too feel badly that there are some very public figures misrepresenting the Church in their words and behavior, but I would not have them leave, just the same. I would see them come around to true faith instead of insisting that human understanding trumps Church teaching. They need our prayers and our aid, if they’ll accept the latter (the former isn’t up to them).
As long as such folks remain convinced they are good Catholics instead of heretical ones, they will go on thinking and acting as they do. We cannot make them change their hearts and minds, but that’s not up to us, really. Our duty is simply to keep on telling the truth in love and to pray, pray, pray.
The Church has gone through this sort of thing in nearly every generation and down through the centuries. It’s really nothing new. Some of our greatest saints spent their lives ministering to ignorant or recalcitrant Catholics rather than to the unchurched and non-Christians.
It can be hard to think of these folks with love, I know. I too feel badly that there are some very public figures misrepresenting the Church in their words and behavior, but I would not have them leave, just the same. I would see them come around to true faith instead of insisting that human understanding trumps Church teaching. They need our prayers and our aid, if they’ll accept the latter (the former isn’t up to them).
As long as such folks remain convinced they are good Catholics instead of heretical ones, they will go on thinking and acting as they do. We cannot make them change their hearts and minds, but that’s not up to us, really. Our duty is simply to keep on telling the truth in love and to pray, pray, pray.
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SteveVH
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Della, I agree with you when it comes to the average Catholic in the pew. I’m not so sure when it comes to public figures who grossly misrepresent Catholic teaching on issues as important as abortion, contraception, euthanasia, etc. They have an influence over policies that directly affect lives as well as influence over the opinions of many in this country as to Catholic teaching on these issues. This rises to the level of scandal. While I hope to trust in the decisions of our bishops when it comes to these matters, I sometimes wonder if public excommunication would not be warranted. Silence is often interpreted as acceptance.
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