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superamazingman
Guest
I wish people would understand that! It’s quite frustrating to see people say things like “you should be offering your music as a gift!”
They see musicians as normal people who happen to sit in the loft during Mass, then go home and don’t think about it until next week just like everyone else. It’s not at all like that.
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clem456
Guest
Yes to the above posts.
Music is definitely a gift to be shared. The person sharing that gift should get paid. It is right and just.
The two issues are not mutually exclusive.
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englishredrose
Guest
Each person chooses how much time they put into their own practice time
so the actual truth is that its individual choice that you are a musician at a church or not. No one has to be there. You choose to be there as a musician. No one is making you. That is the real truth. Shock horror but not everyone wants music. The majority do admittedly. But not everyone and not every priest.
If you want to play, then fine, if the priest agrees then play. But if you want to be paid for playing, then who is going to find that money to pay you with? If you can come up with an affordable scheme for the church to be able to afford and want to pay you then present it. Once they start paying you a living wage the whole ethos of what you are doing changes. You become a contracted worker of which the church has got to make sure they follow all the employment laws for you. Holidays and sickness any accidents on the premises etc. Church, Priests wants you to feel that you are a full part of the service. Not some paid employee of the service. Being paid would be demeaning because you’d become an employee rather than someone who likes to embrace their music talents and offering them to God as your way of worship. Its not clever wanting to be paid for contribution at church. Many think it is but really its not clever because it the whole ethos of playing for the pleasure of playing would change. You’d be contracted to play rather than playing for pleasure and am sorry but thats the real truth of all of this. We all sing or play or do what we do in church because we want to. No one is making us. Its our way of joining in the service and community of which pay is not the way foward to being recognised.
so the actual truth is that its individual choice that you are a musician at a church or not. No one has to be there. You choose to be there as a musician. No one is making you. That is the real truth. Shock horror but not everyone wants music. The majority do admittedly. But not everyone and not every priest.
If you want to play, then fine, if the priest agrees then play. But if you want to be paid for playing, then who is going to find that money to pay you with? If you can come up with an affordable scheme for the church to be able to afford and want to pay you then present it. Once they start paying you a living wage the whole ethos of what you are doing changes. You become a contracted worker of which the church has got to make sure they follow all the employment laws for you. Holidays and sickness any accidents on the premises etc. Church, Priests wants you to feel that you are a full part of the service. Not some paid employee of the service. Being paid would be demeaning because you’d become an employee rather than someone who likes to embrace their music talents and offering them to God as your way of worship. Its not clever wanting to be paid for contribution at church. Many think it is but really its not clever because it the whole ethos of playing for the pleasure of playing would change. You’d be contracted to play rather than playing for pleasure and am sorry but thats the real truth of all of this. We all sing or play or do what we do in church because we want to. No one is making us. Its our way of joining in the service and community of which pay is not the way foward to being recognised.
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superamazingman
Guest
I only wish that were true. If I want to provide quality music, I can not choose how much time I want to practice. I need to practice until the music is learned well.
shock horror, but music is an integral part of the liturgy. It isn’t something we should just pass on because we don’t like it. But really, you’re an anglican! Why do you keep making statements for Catholics on a Catholic board pretending your speaking Catholic teaching when you’re not even one yourself?
As was stated above, playing as a gift and playing for pay are not mutually exclusive. That’s what you’re not understanding. By your logic, the organist’s plethora of time used to learn the music is worth nothing, or should be donated as a gift. Fine, go ahead and do it yourself, donate your own time, but don’t force that upon everyone.
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jmcrae
Guest
Right, exactly.
Where does this mentality come from, that people are supposed to hate the work that they do for pay?
You can love your job and still get paid to do it - that’s how we keep our children fed, and roofs over their heads.
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superamazingman
Guest
I’mWhere does this mentality come from, that people are supposed to hate the work that they do for pay?
as well.
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ThePaladin
Guest
I will admit that there are aspects of this thread that are seriously.making me work on the virtue of charity! What a blessing!
I am a cantor, my wife a music director. She puts in anywhere between 40 to 50 hours per week, and I put in roughly 20 in preparing the music and liturgy to be used in the celebration of mass. It should also be noted that both my wife and I have been professionally employed by opera companies and other establishments for performance engagements. While thatbis radically different to that of theass, or any church work for that matter, the time commitment is not. Before being so quick to denounce the compensation of our musicians, please consider that of not for our love of the Church, we could easily be earning a living else where. In that spirit, it should be noted that our protestant brothers and sisters generally have a far greater music budget. If they can provide better wages for their musicians, why then would the Catholic Church that celebrates the Holy Mass do anything less? If we want to to give God our best, we should respect those who take significant amounts of time to make that liturgy special with their gifts of music.
I am a cantor, my wife a music director. She puts in anywhere between 40 to 50 hours per week, and I put in roughly 20 in preparing the music and liturgy to be used in the celebration of mass. It should also be noted that both my wife and I have been professionally employed by opera companies and other establishments for performance engagements. While thatbis radically different to that of theass, or any church work for that matter, the time commitment is not. Before being so quick to denounce the compensation of our musicians, please consider that of not for our love of the Church, we could easily be earning a living else where. In that spirit, it should be noted that our protestant brothers and sisters generally have a far greater music budget. If they can provide better wages for their musicians, why then would the Catholic Church that celebrates the Holy Mass do anything less? If we want to to give God our best, we should respect those who take significant amounts of time to make that liturgy special with their gifts of music.
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DarkLight
Guest
I would add to this how many masses and other events church musicians are expected to be at. In my experience, volunteers typically only want to be at a single mass. Churches that want their choir to do multiple masses in the weekend (I go to the cathedral, which has the full choir at 3 of the 4 masses) as well as concerts and other events are more likely to pay them for it.
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Pat_Albertson
Guest
I was ruminating on something like this topic a bit during Sunday’s mass.
The music director of the church I go to could easily surpass many great singing stars in the quality of the music she makes for the church. She’s so good, in fact, that she’s been compared to the heavenly angels in print.
I was even thinking that perhaps a contingent of parishoners ought to get together to try and force her onto something like America’s Got Talent and/or make her record everything she sings. Still, after thinking this over a bit, I decided that perhaps God is having things go the way He wants them to go. If He wanted to change things, He could easily do so.
One other thing occurred to me, namely, that once one’s relative anonymity is given up, it’s gone for good. I had an image of her in my mind (she’s also very beautiful), an image of her walking back to her car by herself, able to enjoy a seemingly ordinary life with her husband and kids. I thought to myself, “Perhaps we ought not be so quick to toss away the ordinary things in life, they may be precious and irreplaceable, even when compared with the fame and fortune the world says are the most important things.”
I’m glad I never said anything to anybody. I’m glad I left her alone. Her life is none of my business. What she does is between her, her family, God and the church, and that’s the way it should be.
As to the issue at hand, money or no money, pay or no pay, I will leave that up to God. I don’t have much choice in the matter anyway. If I was rich, perhaps I would personally pay our church musicians the Rockstar salaries I think they deserve, but I’m not, so that’s that. I will pray for her, her family, and the other musicians; that’s probably the best I can do.
Just my $0.02.
The music director of the church I go to could easily surpass many great singing stars in the quality of the music she makes for the church. She’s so good, in fact, that she’s been compared to the heavenly angels in print.
I was even thinking that perhaps a contingent of parishoners ought to get together to try and force her onto something like America’s Got Talent and/or make her record everything she sings. Still, after thinking this over a bit, I decided that perhaps God is having things go the way He wants them to go. If He wanted to change things, He could easily do so.
One other thing occurred to me, namely, that once one’s relative anonymity is given up, it’s gone for good. I had an image of her in my mind (she’s also very beautiful), an image of her walking back to her car by herself, able to enjoy a seemingly ordinary life with her husband and kids. I thought to myself, “Perhaps we ought not be so quick to toss away the ordinary things in life, they may be precious and irreplaceable, even when compared with the fame and fortune the world says are the most important things.”
I’m glad I never said anything to anybody. I’m glad I left her alone. Her life is none of my business. What she does is between her, her family, God and the church, and that’s the way it should be.
As to the issue at hand, money or no money, pay or no pay, I will leave that up to God. I don’t have much choice in the matter anyway. If I was rich, perhaps I would personally pay our church musicians the Rockstar salaries I think they deserve, but I’m not, so that’s that. I will pray for her, her family, and the other musicians; that’s probably the best I can do.
Just my $0.02.
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Sarabande
Guest
This is an important point. Anyone who truly plays or sings as a gift from God knows that there is not much difference when performing as a volunteer or performing for pay. No matter what place I perform in, whether it is in a secular venue or a church, I am always worshiping and praying to God. I know where I received my gift. Of course, I put in a lot of hard work honing that gift, but none of that would matter if the Lord did not bless me with it. My first voice teacher taught me that whenever she was about to sing, she would always say a little prayer to God, asking to allow her to sing for His glory alone, knowing full well that He could take this gift away from her just as quickly as He gave it to her. My current voice teacher also viewed singing and performing an instrument in the same way. It is something very spiritual, a gift to be shared and one in which the Lord has entrusted us to use to the very best of our abilities. My other musical mentors have viewed it similarly. Yes, we do make a living from it, but just because we are paid does not mean that we suddenly aren’t worshiping God or praying, or that it is less so.
Perhaps there are people who do have a different experience when they are paid and if he/she is afraid that it would change their entire spiritual, prayer and worship experience in a church setting, then by all means, it is their choice to not get paid for it. It’s their reality of the situation, which perhaps brings on that opinion and is one to be respected. I certainly would not want to make another get paid for playing an instrument or singing at a mass if they felt it would change everything for them and go against their conscience. But not everyone is that way and I think of that is important to be cognizant.
In Englishredrose’s defense, I know for most of the Anglican/Episcopal churches in my area, they do pay most of their instrumentalists and singers. As someone who has worked as a ringer in some of these church choirs, I have met a few singers (and instrumentalists) who go only for the money and prestige. Some don’t even really believe in God. They are responsible, respectful of the people and church they work in, but when you talk to them one-on-one, you realize that it has nothing to do with the spiritual and prayerful part of playing/singing music. I can see how that would turn a person off paying someone.
On the other hand, I have seen similar situations in Catholic churches when there were just volunteers. People who offered their time and talents for free, but got a little too full of themselves and a little too loving of the “power” they had by who they “allowed” into the music. People who should have been let go either due to a poor attitude or poor musicianship, but because they were giving for free and were parishioners, could not be let go. Volunteer cantors who had either lost their humility or never had it in the first place and would get ticked off at the priest or music director who asked them not to sing so much into the mic so that it wouldn’t become a solo.
That said, most church musicians I know (paid and unpaid) aren’t like that.
I think if a parish wants to hire and pay for their musicians and really would like to make sure they have a spiritual/prayerful element to their approach in music, they should ask questions in the interview on their views. When I was just starting out working as a musician, my first church job was the regular soloist and leader of song at a First Church of Christ Scientist. The audition also consisted with an interview and a questionnaire. Much of what they were concerned about was my religious and spiritual outlook. I was very honest with them that I was a devout Catholic and expressed my views on my spirituality and faith on the questionnaire. I also told them that I had planned to attend mass after their services. I really didn’t think I would get the job, but when it was offered to me the first thing they said was that they were impressed by my faith and spirituality and my sincerity. The other candidates had no religious affiliation or spirituality (or enough to be impressed with) and they wanted to be sure that their musicians could express the spiritual aspect and sincerity through the music… not just make it sound beautiful.
If Catholic parishes weeded out the candidates like that in the audition/interview process you could ensure that you were getting either all devout Catholics or at least other devout Christians as paid/unpaid musicians.
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dochawk
Guest
Now that would be a rather strong argument against even having music in church.
What in the world ever gave you such an idea???
hawk
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superamazingman
Guest
This is an important point. Anyone who truly plays or sings as a gift from God knows that there is not much difference when performing as a volunteer or performing for pay. No matter what place I perform in, whether it is in a secular venue or a church, I am always worshiping and praying to God. I know where I received my gift. \QUOTE]
Heck, sometimes when I’m singing, I don’t even know if I’m being paid or not!
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LittleFlower101
Guest
I have been a cantor for 9 years. And I started in a college (FUS) that had a great music ministry program that puts most parishes to shame. Here’s what I think.
Hold Open Auditions - and promote those auditions
Music Ministers Sing at only one Mass per weekend
Music Ministers are volunteers and are not paid
Music Leaders who give lots of time during their week are paid - they must also play an instrument and they usually attend more than one (1) Mass per Sunday liturgy
Make all Music Ministers go on a training weekend retreat so everyone knows what they are doing
Music Ministers should be Catholic, understand music as a ministry within the Church and Love the Mass
The end.
Hold Open Auditions - and promote those auditions
Music Ministers Sing at only one Mass per weekend
Music Ministers are volunteers and are not paid
Music Leaders who give lots of time during their week are paid - they must also play an instrument and they usually attend more than one (1) Mass per Sunday liturgy
Make all Music Ministers go on a training weekend retreat so everyone knows what they are doing
Music Ministers should be Catholic, understand music as a ministry within the Church and Love the Mass
The end.
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pnewton
Guest
FYI, while they may work for you, five out of six would not work for me, or we would have zero music.
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kmo_9000
Guest
I really don’t see any basis for why musicians should be paid to participate in the mass. We are all called to go to church and to participate. I think even a secular person would agree that this kind of thing falls under the veil of volunteer service, not a part time job.
Sometimes I serve at mass when it is needed, I don’t ask the parish for money to do that. It’s important to remember that it’s not the church that would be paying you, it’s your fellow parishioners who give at the collection that would be paying you.
The church says we should pay employees but these people are not employees, they are parishioners. The church is not a business it is a community and just like any other community everyone needs to give their fair share to make it work.
If a person performs a real service to the church and invests a large amount of hours into that job then sure they should be paid, but that’s a different matter.
The only situation I can think of that might warrant being paid is if a musically trained person invests hours outside of the mass to train a choir or otherwise give music lessons/direction. But in my experience parishioners who do that generally consider that a volunteer position.
Sometimes I serve at mass when it is needed, I don’t ask the parish for money to do that. It’s important to remember that it’s not the church that would be paying you, it’s your fellow parishioners who give at the collection that would be paying you.
The church says we should pay employees but these people are not employees, they are parishioners. The church is not a business it is a community and just like any other community everyone needs to give their fair share to make it work.
If a person performs a real service to the church and invests a large amount of hours into that job then sure they should be paid, but that’s a different matter.
The only situation I can think of that might warrant being paid is if a musically trained person invests hours outside of the mass to train a choir or otherwise give music lessons/direction. But in my experience parishioners who do that generally consider that a volunteer position.
A different matter? I thought that WAS the matter we are mainly discussing.
In my experience music and/or choir directors often DO spend 20-40 HOURS outside of Mass. At least that is the case in my parish. It’s a big job. In my parish we have an adult choir, a youth choir, and a children’s choir for a total of about 150 singers. The organ player, piano player, cello player, flute player and other regular instrumentalists need music transposed. The cantors need to be rehearsed, extra-liturgical concerts need to be organized…
In addition, wedding and funeral music needs to be approved and cantors and instrumentalists assigned for those liturgies.
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Sarabande
Guest
I have already expressed enough of my opinion and beliefs on the subject, but there is something to consider. As someone who freelances all over, including Catholic parishes, I have probably worked with music directors and other instrumentalists in at least 100 different parishes, if not more, over the years. I’ve been able to learn about the different dynamics for each parish in regards to their music programs. **Not all parishes have a pool of competent musician parishioners to draw from within the parish, so they have to look outside of it. **This means either hiring other Catholics or non-Catholics. And because music in the liturgy is important they are willing to pay for it, otherwise they will have no music or poorly played music. Some of the Catholic organists/music directors I know will travel to multiple parishes. They aren’t parishioners at any of them but organists are in such high demand and low in quantity (and quality), that they have freelanced all over. Non-Catholic organists/music directors - well, you can’t expect them to do it for free.
I will say most full time music directors can’t freelance too much, but they will do it on occasion, especially for weddings and funerals. This is the same for parishes who want well-trained singers as cantors, otherwise they are a dime a dozen and can be found right in the parish. It’s one of the reasons why I freelance so much, sometimes traveling 200+ miles one way. Most of the time it’s for weddings and the parish either has no cantors or competent singers and the couple is looking for a classical trained singer with experience and knowledge of the liturgy. Other times, the parish, itself will hire me for special masses and events where they want well-trained singers.
Of course there are instances where someone has the means to dedicate 20-40 hours a week for nothing. I knew one couple who had regional and international careers in music and when they retired was able to give of their time gratis since it was their parish.
I will say most full time music directors can’t freelance too much, but they will do it on occasion, especially for weddings and funerals. This is the same for parishes who want well-trained singers as cantors, otherwise they are a dime a dozen and can be found right in the parish. It’s one of the reasons why I freelance so much, sometimes traveling 200+ miles one way. Most of the time it’s for weddings and the parish either has no cantors or competent singers and the couple is looking for a classical trained singer with experience and knowledge of the liturgy. Other times, the parish, itself will hire me for special masses and events where they want well-trained singers.
Of course there are instances where someone has the means to dedicate 20-40 hours a week for nothing. I knew one couple who had regional and international careers in music and when they retired was able to give of their time gratis since it was their parish.
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kmo_9000
Guest
So you are saying that the other members of the parish should pay you to do this? You seemed to have ignored this point that I brought up. The money that would pay you comes from the rest of the parishioners who donate at the collection.
Saying that we should pay 150 musicians each week would significantly increase the financial burden on the community. And if you are saying that maybe only you should be paid then why only you and not the rest of the people. They invest time too don’t they? And how much should we pay you? If you don’t get paid enough are you going to start a Union and go on strike?
When I said people who invest a large amount of hours I was referring to people who have full time jobs in church administration, people that don’t have other normal jobs outside of the Church. I highly doubt that you spend 40 hours practicing and doing music related work INSIDE the church EVERY week of the year and that you simply ignore your real job to do this.
The difference between the priest and you is that the priest doesn’t have a job outside of his roll in the church, it’s our duty as Catholics to support our priests that’s why they deserve money for saying mass.
It’s funny though, the reason we go to mass is not to hear you sing. The reason we go to mass is for the sacrifice of the Eucharist. We go to mass for Jesus not you, and you should be going for Jesus too.
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Sarabande
Guest
I think you misunderstood SMHW’s post. The Music/Choir director is responsible for 150 singers in the choirs (usually those singers aren’t musicians and are volunteers, so it’s extra time teaching them everything by rote), plus handling the arrangements/transposing of music for various instrumentalists, rehearsing and teaching the cantors, planning the music liturgies, expected and sometimes required concerts during the year, his/her own practice (which can be between 6-8 hours a day), etc. He/She is not saying the parish should be paying 150+ musicians. The music director is usually doing a full-time job when they have those kinds of responsibilities, so they don’t have any other “normal” job.
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