Should Catholic Church musicians be paid?

[Pilgrim1701]

the pastor was assured that I would appear every Sunday to play for Mass. Those musicians who were not paid would show up sporadically as they were all volunteers and there was no payment to ensure their attendance.

Should we pay the altar boys/ girls to ensure they turn up? Musicians aren’t even necessary for the mass. this is just such a ridiculous question. Parish resources can be stretched enough as it is.
If I thought the people were getting paid for ministries I would be stopping my contributions, which makes me consider…

 

[MissRose73]

Most of the churches I’ve been going to have full time musical directors and they are paid salary + benefits for the work they do. The one at my mother’s church is responsible for being in charge of the adult choir, the children’s choir, the choir that sings at funerals, making the musical arrangements for each Mass, putting together the slide show projection projecting responses and songs for the faithful, working with the church instrumentalists who donate their time & talents, and other church music related things. She also plays the piano, sometimes cantors, plays the flute among her many talents. Yes, she deserves every dime she earns as she has some days that can be long, others short. Same for others who do similar work in their parishes. My uncle is a cantor in addition to singing in the choir but I am under the impression he is not paid for his services.

 

[SMHW]

Obviously a parish can only pay what it can afford to pay so mileage may vary.

But in general, I think a parish musician who puts in more than about four or five hours a week is doing a job and deserves to be paid.

My parish has a full time paid music director and some paid instrumentalists. And we have some other people who volunteer time. We hire instrumentalists for some special occasions and for Christmas and the Triduum. If parishioners want cantors and instrumentalists for weddings or funerals they pay musicians a stipend.

For the record, I am a volunteer choir member. For every hour I spend at Mass I put in at least two hours of rehearsal time. I know that cantors, choir directors, and instrumentalists put in more like three or four hours of preparation time.

I know that instrumentalists, choir directors, and often do multiple Masses. If the music is not the same at all Masses that would mean some extra practice time

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I can’t believe this is a question!
Mass is not a concert where you pay for the music. Certainly, occasions, and I’m thinking weddings, funerals etc, outside of a normal Sunday obligation should be worth considering. A musician may have to take time off to be there, or it may be their livelihood.
But even at that, it shouldn’t be coming out of the parish resources, but rather the happy couple etc…
But, on a Sunday mass? I mean where do you stop? Do we pay EMHCs, readers, the altar servers? What about those who give time outside mass, those on Pastoral Councils, Finance Committees, Altar Societies. I could go on and on… Should EMHCs be paid for ‘home visits’?
I just don’t think financial remuneration should be the motive for involvement in a Church ministry.
Just out of curiosity, what does a musical director do outside of Mass? Is it a regular 9-5, 5 days a week? How much music is going on during the working week in a parish?

Depends on the parish which is why the salary depends on it also.

If you have a tiny parish of 150 people in which the priest is not in residence (often called a ‘mission’ parish’), then maybe the cantor who comes to the one Sunday 9 a.m. mass does the work as a gift.

But what if you have a parish of 900 people, in a moderate size community, where the parish has a school associated, where there are many ministries, etc? In THIS parish, there is not only the Saturday vigil but 3 Sunday masses; one can usually count on a dozen weddings/funerals in a given month, there are several outside special Masses a month (one for Respect Life, one for the Knights of Columbus, one for the Lay Franciscans or Dominicans, etc.), plus during the school year there is a mass every day of the week.

Care to imagine how much work the director of music has in that parish? Coordinating the folk group that sings at the 11 a.m. Sunday mass, being the cantor for the Saturday liturgy, directing the adult choir that sings at the 9 a.m. mass, playing the organ for the ‘low’ Mass on Sunday or perhaps running the Gregorian chant SCHOLA at that time. . .running the Children’s choir for the school year including Christmas and Easter special Masses, making sure the music is bought, learned, instruments kept up to date, arranging for funerals and weddings, arranging for ‘alternates’ for when the usual cantor might be ill, the weather might cause the organ pipes to freeze up, etc. . .

Isn’t this a full time job? Think about it --you’re there for Mass for the kids every school day, often there for a daily Mass for the people in the early morning or late afternoon, plus days where there is a wedding, funeral, or ‘special’ Mass; each one you have to have chosen the music for, rehearsed the singers and musicians, made sure everything was in place, and then afterward you get things put away. . .you’re also making a record of what worked out VERY WELL so that you can keep on doing that, seeing what might have gone not so well and determining how to make it go better. . .you’re also bombared with daily e-mails from people insisting that their deceased loved one have a full band play at the funeral, tactfully informing them that the Church policy has certain standards that must be met. You’re hearing daily from mothers who are furious that their little darlings aren’t getting SOLO requests. Sometimes you have your priest in your corner supporting you; sometimes your priest will throw you under the bus… . .

And with all of this and putting in more than 40 hours a week as a skilled musician and administrator, you’re barely earning minimum wage and you have no benefits, and people give you the stink eye for NOT doing this for ‘free’???

 

[Aggies08]

Our directors are paid, but the “choir/musicians” are not.

Of course, if you are having a special mass offered, you can always hire whomever you want, it you want a particular sound.

It’s upfront that you won’t be paid if you volunteer to play/be in the choir, so I don’t see that as a problem.

Our daily mass is lead by the priest singing as he processes down the aisle, and silent during parts where he is praying (and thus can’t lead a song)!

 

[Corki]

Obviously a parish can only pay what it can afford to pay so mileage may vary.

But in general, I think a parish musician who puts in more than about four or five hours a week is doing a job and deserves to be paid.

Ok, but let me play devil’s advocate a bit. Would you apply the same standard to others who are fulfilling a liturgical or parish role? What about the DRE who puts in, even in our tiny parish, 15-20 hours a week and her catechists who spend about 4-5 hours a week in teaching, prepping and grading? Or the EMHCs who not only attend thier assigned Masses but spend many hours a week bringing Communion to the homebound? Or the women who bring and serve all the food for the receptions after funerals. We have had times when there were 3 funerals a week and these ladies were working easily 10-12 hours cooking, serving, and cleaning up? Not to mention the RCIA leaders and sponsors, the altar servers, the readers, …

I am not saying that musicians, espeically music directors, should not get paid but if the standard is hours of time, then the payroll should include lots of others too.

 

[Pilgrim1701]

Anyone who contributes to the Church, in whatever fashion or capacity gives of their time, effort and talent. It may surprise some people here but, even the diaconate where I am are not paid a salary, only expenses. Are musicians more important than deacons?
Not giving anyone the ‘stink eye’ as crudely suggested, but those arguing for paying those who do the music, would have to concede the same arguments for others involved in both the liturgical and pastoral life of the church. Not everyone gets paid, so why the special case scenario.?
So I suppose the question I’m posing is why just the musicians? I already know there’s more going on than just the hour or so at mass, but like I say, there is a lot of others doing stuff behind the scenes also.

 

[Pilgrim1701]

Ok, but let me play devil’s advocate a bit. Would you apply the same standard to others who are fulfilling a liturgical or parish role? What about the DRE who puts in, even in our tiny parish, 15-20 hours a week and her catechists who spend about 4-5 hours a week in teaching, prepping and grading? Or the EMHCs who not only attend thier assigned Masses but spend many hours a week bringing Communion to the homebound? Or the women who bring and serve all the food for the receptions after funerals. We have had times when there were 3 funerals a week and these ladies were working easily 10-12 hours cooking, serving, and cleaning up? Not to mention the RCIA leaders and sponsors, the altar servers, the readers, …

I am not saying that musicians, espeically music directors, should not get paid but if the standard is hours of time, then the payroll should include lots of others too.

+1

 

[PatriceA]

Ok, but let me play devil’s advocate a bit. Would you apply the same standard to others who are fulfilling a liturgical or parish role? What about the DRE who puts in, even in our tiny parish, 15-20 hours a week and her catechists who spend about 4-5 hours a week in teaching, prepping and grading? Or the EMHCs who not only attend thier assigned Masses but spend many hours a week bringing Communion to the homebound? Or the women who bring and serve all the food for the receptions after funerals. We have had times when there were 3 funerals a week and these ladies were working easily 10-12 hours cooking, serving, and cleaning up? Not to mention the RCIA leaders and sponsors, the altar servers, the readers, …

I am not saying that musicians, espeically music directors, should not get paid but if the standard is hours of time, then the payroll should include lots of others too.

That was my point as well. Those in charge of our ministries in my parish get paid a salary, such as the music director, the DRE, the Youth Minister, the janitor, etc. etc. But they all have a group of volunteers under their leadership that are serving purely in a voluntary position. The musicians or choirs that provide a service at say a funeral mass may get a “donation” and that’s great when they do so, but its not expected or required by those volunteering their talents in their chosen ministry.

Parishes wouldn’t be able to meet their financial responsibilities if every musician or singer was paid for their talents and services. I think that would create a financial burden on most parishes I know

 

[Santi2]

Should Catholic Church musicians (music/liturgy director, choir directors, cantors, organists, pianists, other instrumentalists, etc.) be paid?

I know this has been discussed on CAF, but I think it’s usually in the context of general discussion about liturgical music. I wanted to separate out JUST this issue–should they be paid? Please feel free to link to other past threads on this topic. Thanks.

BTW, in the name of openness–I play piano for Masses on a regular basis, and I am not paid in my own parish. When I play at other parishes, I am paid, usually around $75/Mass.

My husband and I are the organists for our Parish (he is also choirmaster). We are paid when we are asked to play for funerals and weddings in our Parish. We also get paid £50/Mass at other Parishes, simply because the organists in those Parishes are paid and at that rate.

 

[SMHW]

It gets crazy, doesn’t it?

There is a certain amount of supply and demand going on. (I’m an evil capitalist and proud of it.) As long as there are people willing to do something for free and they can do it well then there is not much point in paying them. But then, sometimes you end up with what you pay for… (And it’s often easier to fire an employee than a volunteer.)

But some jobs require specialized skills and paid education and it’s very likely you won’t get a qualified person to do them for free. I realize this is not going to be the case for all parishes but if a DRE has received all the training and education, and certification necessary to become a Master Catechist and more or less does the job of a principal in a school, then yes, I think he/she should ideally be paid. (When I worked as an RE teacher I think I probably put in four or five hours a week but I also got a significant discount on the costs of the program for my own children.)

I have high praise for those who offer their time as Readers, Altar Servers, EMHCs, ushers, greeters, sacristans, and all the other jobs that are done at parishes. However some jobs require more specific preparation than others. The music, readings, and class material varies from week to week. While the work level for some of the other “jobs” varies, the actual tasks themselves don’t change much from week to week (other than feasts and solemnities, of course.)

FYI: I come from a parish with a paid staff and a huge number of volunteers. One of the primary purposes of the paid staff is to act as manages for the unpaid volunteers. Sometimes those staff persons will have to bring in paid help for special occasions.

 

[superamazingman]

Should Catholic Church musicians (music/liturgy director, choir directors, cantors, organists, pianists, other instrumentalists, etc.) be paid?

I know this has been discussed on CAF, but I think it’s usually in the context of general discussion about liturgical music. I wanted to separate out JUST this issue–should they be paid? Please feel free to link to other past threads on this topic. Thanks.

BTW, in the name of openness–I play piano for Masses on a regular basis, and I am not paid in my own parish. When I play at other parishes, I am paid, usually around $75/Mass.

Yes, pay them, and pay them well. If true HIGH QUALITY sacred music is to be fostered, then we should be paying to attract the best of the best. I have heard many times a young Catholic organist playing at the lutheran church because the local Catholic church didn’t pay, or didn’t pay very well.

 

[superamazingman]

Should Catholic Church musicians (music/liturgy director, choir directors, cantors, organists, pianists, other instrumentalists, etc.) be paid?

I know this has been discussed on CAF, but I think it’s usually in the context of general discussion about liturgical music. I wanted to separate out JUST this issue–should they be paid? Please feel free to link to other past threads on this topic. Thanks.

BTW, in the name of openness–I play piano for Masses on a regular basis, and I am not paid in my own parish. When I play at other parishes, I am paid, usually around $75/Mass.

Yes, pay them, and pay them well. If true HIGH QUALITY sacred music is to be fostered, then we should be paying to attract the best of the best. I have heard many times a young Catholic organist playing at the lutheran church because the local Catholic church didn’t pay, or didn’t pay very well. In very small parishes, it may not be possible, but for most parishes, if they make it a priority, they can\i] do it. They may have to change around priorities, but it’s very possible, if the liturgy is no. 1 on the list, as it should be.

 

[clem456]

Come on now. In the time of Pope Leo XIII nobody was strumming away on a guitar to entertain the faithful. Plus, you have taken Leo XIII’s statement completely out of context. No, musicians should not be paid. They should attend Church to worship and their contributions should be for the greater glory of God.

In terms of comparing ANY such role with that of the Priest, there can be no comparison. The Priest doesn’t need the musicians in order to say Mass. The musicians are there (in theory) to enhance the “participation” of the faithful and are not absolutely essential. One can quote Sacrosanctum Concillium to try to refute this comment, but the point stands regardless. Pope Leo XIII probably never imagined hiring a band for Mass would ever become an issue.

Several issues confused here.

1. A guitar used at Mass does not equal entertainment. Some very reverent and appropriate music is done with stringed instruments, and horns also.
2. Just because a musician or director gets paid to make music at Mass does not mean they are not doing it for the greater glory of God. If you believe that a man or woman investing 50+ hours a week in parish liturgy should not be paid, YOU need to go speak with the man’s wife and children, and tell them how YOU will support them because you believe they should do it for the greater glory of God and a wage detracts from that, in your opinion. You know, pay for their mortgage and tuition and hospital bills, all those little things that a salary pays for. Charity is also for the greater glory of God, and that’s what these folks will need if not paid a just wage. YOU need to jump in there and take care of that. Or maybe the parish could just pay the man a just wage?
3. Who’s comparing a liturgy director to a priest?
4. Musicians are not essential? Neither are vestments and statues and communion rails and holy water fonts and nice decoration.

 

[Julia_Mae]

A musician may have to take time off to be there, or it may be their livelihood.
But even at that, it shouldn’t be coming out of the parish resources, but rather the happy couple etc…
But, on a Sunday mass? I mean where do you stop?..
I just don’t think financial remuneration should be the motive for involvement in a Church ministry.
Just out of curiosity, what does a musical director do outside of Mass? Is it a regular 9-5, 5 days a week? How much music is going on during the working week in a parish?

At my first parish, our music director is the 2nd highest paid employee. He has a PhD in music from a prestigious university. He works all week-end Masses unless he is on vacation. That means as he raises his family, he never has a whole Saturday to spend with his wife and children. We also have a pianist who gets paid for each service she plays at.

The MD at most Parishes, mine included, is usually also the liturgist. He meets with all families in cases of funerals and weddings and any other special services. He directs three choirs, adult, children, and Spanish.

He writes accompaniments for instruments to go with the standard sheet music. He provides music for special programs other staff members request.

On Christmas and Easter, he often goes more than 24 hours without sleep. He has never opened presents with his children on Christmas eve or morning. MD is the worst job in the parish.

He earns his salary and no one would want to see him leave.

 

[armywife]

I agree with another poster that it depends on what a parish wants. We have a full-time music director and she is at every Mass and directs the choirs (which are voluntary) handles weddings, funerals and pretty anything that has music involved.

Also, I don’t know for sure but am pretty certain that our organist is paid a stipend for each Mass.

 

[johnnykins]

Like so many things…it varies. What I’m used to at my cathedral parish is a paid full time choir master/music director, paid organist, paid choir soloists and paid specialists for special occasions with the rest of the choir being volunteers. This allows for a high quality choir with technically difficult music. If the money is there, That’s what you should have. I think any other arrangement is a recipe for insipid music…which is the usual Catholic fare…which if due to lack of funds…OK; if due to lack of taste…well, that’s a tragedy.

 

[SMHW]

Like so many things…it varies. What I’m used to at my cathedral parish is a paid full time choir master/music director, paid organist, paid choir soloists and paid specialists for special occasions with the rest of the choir being volunteers. This allows for a high quality choir with technically difficult music. If the money is there, That’s what you should have. I think any other arrangement is a recipe for insipid music…which is the usual Catholic fare…which if due to lack of funds…OK; if due to lack of taste…well, that’s a tragedy.

Well said.

 

[Sunbreak]

I think it depends on the parish. If someone is working substantial hours, then probably yes. But in a small parish, probably not. My parish is a small ethnic parish. The priest decides himself which songs he wants people to sing on Sunday, so no need for a liturgical director. The morning English mass has a volunteer organist. The ethnic mass has another volunteer organist and a song leader (they are married and have been doing this for about 20 years). The evening English mass has no accompaniment and songs are led by the priest. If there are funerals or weddings, the people involved make their own arrangements for music. Except for renovation or repair work at the parish, everyone else including office help are volunteers. The priest answers the phone himself or it goes to voicemail. The priest even mows the lawn (there isn’t much and he likes to do it).

 

[Cat]

I can’t believe this is a question!
Mass is not a concert where you pay for the music. Certainly, occasions, and I’m thinking weddings, funerals etc, outside of a normal Sunday obligation should be worth considering. A musician may have to take time off to be there, or it may be their livelihood.
But even at that, it shouldn’t be coming out of the parish resources, but rather the happy couple etc…
But, on a Sunday mass? I mean where do you stop? Do we pay EMHCs, readers, the altar servers? What about those who give time outside mass, those on Pastoral Councils, Finance Committees, Altar Societies. I could go on and on… Should EMHCs be paid for ‘home visits’?
I just don’t think financial remuneration should be the motive for involvement in a Church ministry.
Just out of curiosity, what does a musical director do outside of Mass? Is it a regular 9-5, 5 days a week? How much music is going on during the working week in a parish?

I think you might want to ask your parish music director if you can “shadow” them. Or ask the music director at a large city parish.

I don’t think your comparison between musicians and other church servants is a very good one.

Keep in mind that music is a skilled trade that musicians have spent a lifetime in training to master, and we have paid dearly for that training, and for all of our music. (I just purchase a new book of hymns arranged for organ, and the cost was $45.00.)

EMHCs, readers, altar servers, the members of various societies and commitees, etc. will receive some training, but the training does not last for many years, and there is usually no cost, or minimal cost, for this training.

Most of us who are any good at all still practice at least a few hours a week, and if we are playing anything “special” (a harder prelude or postlude, an orchestral piece, etc.) or accompanying a choir or soloist, we must practice with those musicians.

Some of us still take lessons. Many of the good singers that I know still take lessons, even when they are in their middle age. (The voice changes as a person ages, so often a teacher can help train a singer through these changes.)

I started taking pipe organ lessons last year. Still not playing for hymns, but I’m learning, and I can now play various Bach pieces well enough to do a nice prelude and postlude.

As for the music director–keep in mind that a lot of studying is necessary to do this job well. The music director must be knowledgeable about the correctness and appropriateness of certain music for the liturgy, and must be able to communicate that to all the other musicians in the parish. (e.g., they must be aware that during Advent and Lent, there must be no preludes.) The music director has to “keep up with” the very latest from the bishop regarding music in the Mass. ANd the music director must keep up their own skills, and always be studying to learn still more about the masters of music, the hymnists, the composers, the various instruments, the human voice, various methods of conducting, etc.

The music director is responsible for training all the cantors.

The music director is responsible for teaching the musicians and the congregation the music that the priest requests; .e.g, should a priest request Gregorian chant, the music director must first learn how to sing it himself and then train other musicians, and lastly, train the congregation.

All of this will mean doing research, possibly contacting their college to get hold of textbooks, and ordering music (this could be a costly error if it is not done correctly).

The music director often has to direct several choirs, which means that he must have the knowledge of how to conduct various ages, and various styles of music, as well as work with an accompanist.

And a good music director is probably working on some kind of “season” for their parish, to offer to the community, for the purpose of outreach. Our parish used to offer a very successful season, and now we can’t.

And there are the pageants, cantatas, etc.–all kinds of special music to plan.

And scheduling cantors, choirs, and musicians.

A good music director is probably teaching, too, possibly in the parish school, and probably private lessons.

And a good music director is probably involved with the community in various musical presentations, not because he is a glutton for overinvolvement, but because these gigs provide an income. Also, most musicians really, truly enjoy playing/singing to communicate with an audience. I know I do.