Should Catholic Church musicians be paid?

[Pilgrim1701]

I thought the point of parish councils was advisory and more into goals. The parish council does not not typically get into the day to day work of the parish. That is not their purpose.

Not sure what the point is. The role of a Pastoral Council is advisory, I sit on one. Though to get things up and running and enlist the help of others involves more than a talking shop. Those committees on the administrative side will have to get much more involved however. But there’s another point. Should the Pastoral Council be paid for consultation? They don’t just get together and make it up on the hoof, lots of research and deliberation can go into any decisions and recommendations, and yes outside of the group meeting too.

 

[Pilgrim1701]

As I said before, the law of supply and demand applies. Parishes are every bit as bound by the laws of economics as is the rest of the world. If every parish had a plethora of trained musicians there would probably not be any need for parishes to pay for them.

The only scenario I can conceive of where a parish would have so many trained musicians would be when music training was inexpensive and compulsory for everyone.

Yes but the reverse is true also. If a parish cannot afford it, and the rule is musicians should be paid, they will have no music. Why should a musician play for parish x, when they get paid to play in parish y? The heart of the argument has ceased to be about music and become one of an economic transaction.

 

[jmcrae]

And I’m sensing that you feel the Church, and I who contribute, should pay for your studies. Or I’m I misinterpreting?

Someone who goes to school to study for a job expects to get paid for that job.

If the parish is offering the job, the pay needs to be commensurate with what the working world would pay for similar hours and responsibility.

Nobody gets a Ph.D. with the idea that they’re going to volunteer their time.

Nobody in the secular world hires a musician with the idea that the musician should be volunteering his or her time “for the good cause” - they set aside a music budget, and they pay the person according to the going rate.

 

[Pilgrim1701]

Someone who goes to school to study for a job expects to get paid for that job.

And now we are getting to the point. Its not about worship, but about a job.

 

[TrueLight]

Pilgrim, you’re making some good points.

 

[jmcrae]

That assumes they get paid as a rule, which is what the argument is about here. Whose to say those sitting on a parish finance committee can’t and don’t do it voluntarily like so many things behind the scenes, and I know they do. By saying that people can volunteer services to their parish I’m in no way impugning their profession, be that accountants/ musicians / teachers - anyone, really.

Those who sit on the Finance Committee are volunteers, but the accountant - the person who does the day to day work - is a paid professional. He or she reports to the Finance Council, which has an advisory role. You don’t put volunteers into direct contact with the banking information and passwords of the parish - that would be insane.

 

[TrueLight]

. You don’t put volunteers into direct contact with the banking information and passwords of the parish - that would be insane.

That happens all the time. You can have volunteers sign legal papers just as easily as paid employees.

 

[Pilgrim1701]

That happens all the time. You can have volunteers sign legal papers just as easily as paid employees.

+1
You can easily have someone vetted or undergo a criminal background check to work in a voluntary capacity. Any music director paid or unpaid who may have access to children for example would have to undergo checks. Professional organisation will do this anyway for the members as a matter of course. I also work for a catholic charity, voluntarily, and yes we manage accounts.

 

[SMHW]

Yes but the reverse is true also. If a parish cannot afford it, and the rule is musicians should be paid, they will have no music. Why should a musician play for parish x, when they get paid to play in parish y? The heart of the argument has ceased to be about music and become one of an economic transaction.

Yes. And I’m not sure why it is a problem.

Parishes pay for all kinds of things: ashes, wine, altar breads, vestments, sacred vessels, artwork, candles, a priest to say Mass if the parish priest is away…

Many of these things could be provided by volunteers and some times they are. But my guess is that most parishes do pay for them because they think it’s worth it. So what if a parish wants to pay for better music (or any music) than what they can get for free? Some of us think the music for liturgy is so important that we should pay to get the best

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

I guess this means that the architects, craftsman, sculptors, artists, woodcarvers, bricklayers, electricians, and everyone else involved in building a church should go unpaid, too. After all, if you’re going to pay them, then you have to pay the lector, right? Or does it only become working for the Church once the church building is complete?

 

[SMHW]

I guess this means that the architects, craftsman, sculptors, artists, woodcarvers, bricklayers, electricians, and everyone else involved in building a church should go unpaid, too. After all, if you’re going to pay them, then you have to pay the lector, right? Or does it only become working for the Church once the church building is complete?

And you know what? If it took paying lectors to get decent lectors then I would be all for paying lectors.

 

[TrueLight]

I guess this means that the architects, craftsman, sculptors, artists, woodcarvers, bricklayers, electricians, and everyone else involved in building a church should go unpaid, too. After all, if you’re going to pay them, then you have to pay the lector, right? Or does it only become working for the Church once the church building is complete?

I think a distinction should probably be made between someone coming in from the outside and someone who is registered with the parish.

I would more likely be willing to volunteer for everything at my parish unless I really needed the money (say if I were not working), as opposed to volunteering at other parishes.

So for example, I might be willing to manage a website for my parish for free, but I wouldn’t manage it for free for another parish, unless I were really doing an act of mercy because they really needed it but couldn’t afford it.

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

And you know what? If it took paying lectors to get decent lectors then I would be all for paying lectors.

Decent lector? What’s that? Just let the priest do it and save some money!

 

[jmcrae]

+1
You can easily have someone vetted or undergo a criminal background check to work in a voluntary capacity. Any music director paid or unpaid who may have access to children for example would have to undergo checks. Professional organisation will do this anyway for the members as a matter of course. I also work for a catholic charity, voluntarily, and yes we manage accounts.

Volunteers come and go, though. How many people should have the banking information? A paid employee can be put on contract - but a volunteer can quit tomorrow, without giving a reason.

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

I think a distinction should probably be made between someone coming in from the outside and someone who is registered with the parish.

I would more likely be willing to volunteer for everything at my parish unless I really needed the money (say if I were not working), as opposed to volunteering at other parishes.

So for example, I might be willing to manage a website for my parish for free, but I wouldn’t manage it for free for another parish, unless I were really doing an act of mercy because they really needed it but couldn’t afford it.

You might be surprised, but a lot of church musicians (including me) are not members of the parish they work at. I guess that means I deserve to be paid a wage. Oh, what joyous news!

 

[Pilgrim1701]

Yes. And I’m not sure why it is a problem.

Parishes pay for all kinds of things: ashes, wine, altar breads, vestments, sacred vessels, artwork, candles, a priest to say Mass if the parish priest is away…

Many of these things could be provided by volunteers and some times they are. But my guess is that most parishes do pay for them because they think it’s worth it. So what if a parish wants to pay for better music (or any music) than what they can get for free?

As I said before, I would be concerned about one particular aspect of the liturgy becoming professionalised and a salaried occupation.
The thing you list like the unconsecrated hosts, are paid for, when they are, because you can’t technically have a mass without bread and wine, or candles for that matter.You can have mass without music. You can argue the liturgy is much better with beautiful music, and I will agree with you, but its not strictly necessary. When a parish, or more likely, a cathedral pays for a music director, its simply because they can afford it.
I think it is an unreasonable expectation to apply that across the board.

 

[TrueLight]

You might be surprised, but a lot of church musicians (including me) are not members of the parish they work at. I guess that means I deserve to be paid a wage. Oh, what joyous news!

If you are a full-time musician, then it makes sense that you will apply for jobs that pay a salary or per gig (not to be flippant). This is how you make a living.

My last church had an endowment and had a budget of about 2-3 million per year. They could afford to pay musicians and directors. They had a paid staff of about maybe 10-12 folks, 1 pastor and 2 associate pastors. And when the economy got bad, they had to let some of the staff go…

But if you generate about $4,000 per month, you are very limited in who you can pay.

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

As I said before, I would be concerned about one particular aspect of the liturgy becoming professionalised and a salaried occupation.
The thing you list like the unconsecrated hosts, are paid for, when they are, because you can’t technically have a mass without bread and wine, or candles for that matter.You can have mass without music. You can argue the liturgy is much better with beautiful music, and I will agree with you, but its not strictly necessary. When a parish, or more likely, a cathedral pays for a music director, its simply because they can afford it.
I think it is an unreasonable expectation to apply that across the board.

Nobody has tried applying paid musicians across the board. You, however, come across as trying to have UNPAID musicians across the board.

 

[Pilgrim1701]

You might be surprised, but a lot of church musicians (including me) are not members of the parish they work at. I guess that means I deserve to be paid a wage. Oh, what joyous news!

So which parish would you like to have your baptism, wedding, funeral/burial at? Which parish priest do you phone if you have an emergency? Do you bypass the priest in the parish you live, presumably closer, or call the one where you perform/sing. I’m betting the the answer to one/some of those will be the one you live in.

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

So which parish would you like to have your baptism, wedding, funeral/burial at? Which parish priest do you phone if you have an emergency? Do you bypass the priest in the parish you live, presumably closer, or call the one where you perform/sing. I’m betting the the answer to one/some of those will be the one you live in.

And this relates to the question…how?

For the record, I doubt I’d call my own parish for anything.