Should Catholic Church musicians be paid?

[TrueLight]

And this relates to the question…how?

For the record, I doubt I’d call my own parish for anything.

I agree with you there. I am quite active in a parish that is nowhere near me. I have had all my sacraments there as well as any future marriage or funeral, God willing. But I think the thread is derailing.

 

[Aramis]

there are three kinds of people playing at Catholic liturgies …

Those for whom it’s a ministry.
Those for whom it’s a job.
Those for whom it’s a hobby.

I’ve no issue with category 1 being paid if the parish can afford it and their skills merit it.
Category 2, their skills had better merit it as they are already paid. I’ve seen several whose skills once had, but age had robbed them of their ability.
Category 3 generally should not be paid.

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

I agree with you there. I am quite active in a parish that is nowhere near me. I have had all my sacraments there as well as any future marriage or funeral, God willing. But I think the thread is derailing.

That’s why I asked how his question related to the thread. Seems like it a was purposeful derailment and nothing more.

 

[TrueLight]

That’s why I asked how his question related to the thread. Seems like it a was purposeful derailment and nothing more.

I think the mistake was making the assumption that we all go to our territorial parishes. That has been the subject of hot debate in other threads.

 

[TrueLight]

there are three kinds of people playing at Catholic liturgies …

Those for whom it’s a ministry.
Those for whom it’s a job.
Those for whom it’s a hobby.

I’ve no issue with category 1 being paid if the parish can afford it and their skills merit it.
Category 2, their skills had better merit it as they are already paid. I’ve seen several whose skills once had, but age had robbed them of their ability.
Category 3 generally should not be paid.

How do you distinguish between 1 and 3? Some people have expensive hobbies and even invest money in training to be better.

I like the fact that you brought up ministry. There are volunteers who are more dedicated to their ministry than paid staff.

 

[Pilgrim1701]

Nobody has tried applying paid musicians across the board. You, however, come across as trying to have UNPAID musicians across the board.

Actually the topic of the thread is. Should Catholic Church musicians be paid? It says nothing about across the board.
And no I’ve never said unpaid across the board. I’ve consistently said since the begining there are masses, and situations where it is a reasonable proposition that a musician should be paid, I’ll leave it to you to check them. What I’m prevailing against is the general rule of thumb that they be paid, and especially that a part of the liturgy becomes ‘professionalised’.

 

[clem456]

And now we are getting to the point. Its not about worship, but about a job.

How about recognizing basic human dignity? I guess that’s not worship is it.

You’ve been told how much education and training is required to be a music director plus everything else required (it’s a full time job). Worshipping at Mass is only a -part of- that position. And they should not be paid?
Why? Because you can read the person’s heart? And know they are not really worshipping cause they get paid? You are one talented individual.

Again, as I did in a previous post, I challenge you to provide for this person’s family out of your own personal funds, since you believe people should give of themselves.

 

[SMHW]

As I said before, I would be concerned about one particular aspect of the liturgy becoming professionalised and a salaried occupation.
The thing you list like the unconsecrated hosts, are paid for, when they are, because you can’t technically have a mass without bread and wine, or candles for that matter.You can have mass without music. You can argue the liturgy is much better with beautiful music, and I will agree with you, but its not strictly necessary. When a parish, or more likely, a cathedral pays for a music director, its simply because they can afford it.
I think it is an unreasonable expectation to apply that across the board.

I don’t think anyone is suggesting that a parish that should pay a music director when it can’t pay to fix the leaky roof. But some of us believe that quality music for a parish is so important that a parish that can afford such music should be willing to spend the money to do it.

Yes, that means that means a parish will probably have to cut back somewhere else.

 

[Pilgrim1701]

That’s why I asked how his question related to the thread. Seems like it a was purposeful derailment and nothing more.

It isn’t actually. It is reasonable to expect someone to support the parish in which they live.
If you worship elsewhere, and support another parish, wouldn’t it be incumbent to go there for sacraments. It is getting somewhat off topic, but the reasons, as in previous posts, is that people are going elsewhere because they are paid to, which is pertinent.

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

It isn’t actually. It is reasonable to expect someone to support the parish in which they live.
If you worship elsewhere, and support another parish, wouldn’t it be incumbent to go there for sacraments. It is getting somewhat off topic, but the reasons, as in previous posts, is that people are going elsewhere because they are paid to, which is pertinent.

I’d likely search out the nearest church that has a TLM. Those are the ones that get my donations, too.

 

[pnewton]

I think a distinction should probably be made between someone coming in from the outside and someone who is registered with the parish.

Are you saying that if the Church uses, say a roofing company, that is owned by a parishoner work should be done for free?

 

[Pilgrim1701]

How about recognizing basic human dignity? I guess that’s not worship is it.

You’ve been told how much education and training is required to be a music director plus everything else required (it’s a full time job). Worshipping at Mass is only a -part of- that position. And they should not be paid?
Why? Because you can read the person’s heart? And know they are not really worshipping cause they get paid? You are one talented individual.

Again, as I did in a previous post, I challenge you to provide for this person’s family out of your own personal funds, since you believe people should give of themselves.

I’m not asking anyone to undertake a full-time hours voluntarily. The assumption everywhere, which I have argued against in other posts so I won’t repeat here, is that it is necessary to have one person, take on a massive work load. I contend that it isn’t.
Again the title of the the thread is Should Church Musicians be paid?

Should Catholic Church musicians (music/liturgy director, choir directors, cantors, organists, pianists, other instrumentalists, etc.) be paid?

I think even you can concede there is a difference between that and a musical director in parishes that can afford it. The explanatory note extends somewhat beyond just musical director.

Perhaps, for clarity, the OP should read :should parishes that can afford a full time music director have one, and salaried? Again, my previous concerns about professionalising aspects of the liturgy of the church notwithstanding.

 

[Pilgrim1701]

Are you saying that if the Church uses, say a roofing company that is owned by a parishoner it should be done for free?

No, but generally speaking, roofing isn’t part of the liturgy. And I wouldn’t stop someone volunteering their services. It happens. It would be reasonable for the parish to cover the cost of materials at the very least even if someone volunteered their work. Is this an attempt to derail because you aren’t talking about music?

 

[pnewton]

there are three kinds of people playing at Catholic liturgies …

Those for whom it’s a ministry.
Those for whom it’s a job.
Those for whom it’s a hobby.

But many mix these. I have a little of all three in me. It is first a ministry and in my heart it will always be. Yet it is also a job. God blesses our labors and the work we do. I would never want to disparage good hard work. I also enjoy the heck out of it, most of the time. Likewise, I find enjoyment and satisfaction at my place of employment. I approach that too as both a hobby and a ministry.

FYI - I was doing a little thinking on this. I have never missed a Holy Week. Each year it costs me between $700 and $1000 in lost wages for me to be available this week. So when I say I receive $35 a Mass, that is balanced somewhat by times like this and helps me justify financially missing work in favor of the parish needs.

 

[pnewton]

Is this an attempt to derail because you aren’t talking about music?

No. I was responding to post #111. I would also point out we are talking about** music**, yet no one accused you of trying to derail this by talking about other liturgical ministries. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, and all.

 

[Pilgrim1701]

But many mix these. I have a little of all three in me. It is first a ministry and in my heart it will always be. Yet it is also a job. God blesses our labors and the work we do. I would never want to disparage good hard work. I also enjoy the heck out of it, most of the time. Likewise, I find enjoyment and satisfaction at my place of employment. I approach that too as both a hobby and a ministry.

FYI - I was doing a little thinking on this. I have never missed a Holy Week. Each year it costs me between $700 and $1000 in lost wages for me to be available this week. So when I say I receive $35 a Mass, that is balanced somewhat by times like this and helps me justify financially missing work in favor of the parish needs.

I see, where you are coming from here pnewton. I’m not arguing that someone should be financially ‘out of pocket’, and would deplore anyone , priests included, putting that kind of pressure on someone.

 

[Pilgrim1701]

No. I was responding to post #111. I would also point out we are talking about** music**, yet no one accused you of trying to derail this by talking about other liturgical ministries. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, and all.

Sorry, I got dragged through the coals for addressing the issue of parish-hopping But it is interesting that the general consensus is that music is a special case scenario vis a vis those other ministries and activities in the parish that aren’t and most agree, shouldn’t be salaried or professionalised.

 

[jmcrae]

Perhaps, for clarity, the OP should read :should parishes that can afford a full time music director have one, and salaried? Again, my previous concerns about professionalising aspects of the liturgy of the church notwithstanding.

I think an accountable person should be in charge of the music, whether it’s the pastor himself, or a professionally trained musician.

I don’t think anybody here is talking about paying someone merely to show up at Mass and play the list of hymns.

Rather, we’re talking about the person who is responsible for recommending and purchasing the hymn books, recruiting and training the various choir leaders and the choir members, making sure everyone over 18 who’s involved in the Children’s Choir and the Youth Choir has their police checks done, buying the music licenses for the various instruments, buying the instruments for the parish, making sure that the instruments owned by the parish are kept in good condition and maintained at regular intervals (pianos need to be tuned twice a year in spring and fall, and every time someone sets a toddler loose on it - someone has to be in charge of that), keeping a roster of volunteers who are available for weddings, funerals, and baptisms - and also selecting the hymns for each of the liturgies and Masses, making sure that they fit with both the liturgy itself and the season of the Church year, distributing copies of the music to everyone who needs to practice at home (and making sure there are licenses for that), and all the other paperwork and organizational responsibility that goes along with all of that.

 

[pnewton]

Rather, we’re talking about the person who is responsible for …

Wow. Definitely someone who does all of that needs to be paid. It is good to know that somewhere Catholic parishes have all these cool problems. We have over 1000 families, but we are also a poor, blue collar and immigrant parish. I wouldn’t trade it for the world.

Now, if tomorrow the priest came to me and said the Church needed to discontinue any payment per Mass, I would do very little different. The one thing I would do different is only play around my work and sleep schedule. This might be a 15-20% reduction. I still would give it my all as much as I could. Yes, I have thought about this a lot.

 

[jmcrae]

Wow. Definitely someone who does all of that needs to be paid. It is good to know that somewhere Catholic parishes have all these cool problems. We have over 1000 families, but we are also a poor, blue collar and immigrant parish. I wouldn’t trade it for the world.

Now, if tomorrow the priest came to me and said the Church needed to discontinue any payment per Mass, I would do very little different. The one thing I would do different is only play around my work and sleep schedule. This might be a 15-20% reduction. I still would give it my all as much as I could. Yes, I have thought about this a lot.

And are you the person responsible for making sure the parish has hymn books and instruments, and that your various music licenses are all up to date? Or is that the pastor’s job? (Or do the choirs and congregation simply sing plainchant from memory - which would be very cool, as well as cost-effective.)