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TrueLight
Guest
I think the reason people look at singing differently is for the following reason. Note, I am not saying whether it is fair or correct.
One can go to music school, spend a lot of money, hone their craft and provide a beautiful product.
One can learn how to sing without going to school and can provide a beautiful product . And even though one may not sound “trained”, one can still sound amazing, even more so than a trained person. Yes, I know a good amount of people like that. After all, before there were music schools there were people who were born with the gift of singing.
If a parish is trying to save money, of course they would look for volunteers.
So even though one cannot be a nurse without education, one can, in fact become a plumber by apprenticing with another plumber and just learning how to do things.
And one does not have more of a right to give to God of their talent because they are trained.
One can go to music school, spend a lot of money, hone their craft and provide a beautiful product.
One can learn how to sing without going to school and can provide a beautiful product . And even though one may not sound “trained”, one can still sound amazing, even more so than a trained person. Yes, I know a good amount of people like that. After all, before there were music schools there were people who were born with the gift of singing.
If a parish is trying to save money, of course they would look for volunteers.
So even though one cannot be a nurse without education, one can, in fact become a plumber by apprenticing with another plumber and just learning how to do things.
And one does not have more of a right to give to God of their talent because they are trained.
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Sarabande
Guest
Glad to see you aren’t assuming the worst or know what’s in their hearts and souls, but that post really did come across like that. Thank you for clarifying.
If parishes want to set aside a salary or stipend that is their choice. If not, that is also their choice. It wouldn’t be right to force a parish to pay for things it can’t afford, but the parish also can’t expect people to want to give up their entire weekends every week and holidays away from their families, which can and does happen. They have to accept what they get, expecting no more than that and being thankful when they are fortunate to have a well-trained musician able to give of their time. In regards to other ministries, I have no problem with compensation especially if they are putting just as much work and their own money for years of training and education to be able to do their ministries well. Again, only if a parish can afford it and willing to pay for it. If not, it’s the old saying of getting what you pay for.
Of course, and I don’t think anyone would expect to burden a parish to do that especially if they can’t afford it.
Not being professional enough would not be the retort at all. It’s the assumption that if you had to only focus on one group as the leader, you’d only be putting in a couple hours of work. That isn’t the case, from my own experience. If you are the leader of one music group, your responsibilities would not be full-time, of course, but being able to prepare that group with rehearsal plus your own preparation can be at least 10 hours. For myself, I can potentially put in 2 hours of vocal practice per day. Sometimes more if I have enough stamina, and (because I now have children and they are a full time job) at least 2 hours of music study and work. I tend to not study on Sundays and I’m usually working on Saturdays. So let’s say 4 hours a day for 5 days. That’s 20 hours of preparation to be sure that whenever I am performing my duties as a singing musician (whether in the secular or sacred realms), I am giving quality work and not insulting God with what I would consider shoddy work for myself. Actually, I didn’t realize I put in that much time just for the base work. That doesn’t include actual rehearsals I’d have with the pianist, organist chamber group or orchestra and the actual performances or masses either during the week or weekend. This is the base time I’d give whether or not I’m volunteering.
Sure, if I was a volunteer I could and would definitely say no. I wouldn’t put myself through that on a weekend or during the week if I wasn’t being compensated unless it was as a once in a while favor for a priest or friend. It’s a lot of pressure and time away from family to do it for nothing. I didn’t mention it because I was lamenting doing this at the last minute, but to show that volunteers will often say no or just not show up or cancel on short notice because they can. The music directors and priests call me and want to pay me (funerals and weddings are different as the families pay for it) because they know I will be there and will do my responsibilities well at the last minute. I don’t mind doing it as it is usually part of how I make my livelihood, unless I choose to give my time for nothing.
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johnnykins
Guest
I believe the biblical quote is: Man does not live by bread alone…unless man has no bread.
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OrganistRob
Guest
Speaking as a musician in part-time employment at four Catholic churches in my area, I still do not make nearly a “living” income. The trend I’ve seen is that, unfortunately, a great number of Catholic churches have dire musical assets because of funding. At my main Parish of just under 400 families, our annual music budget comes to just over $24,000. That includes Music Director salary, paid choir (8 to 10 paid singers plus volunteers) from September through Corpus Christi, paid cantors, an assistant organist, regular maintenance of the pianos and organ, as well as the purchase of several new anthems or Mass settings per year for the Choral library. Now that Music budget involves nearly twenty people on the whole and yet the Pastoral Associate gets a salary of roughly 40k a year who rarely attends Mass, let alone works in his office in the rectory. The going rate for funeral Masses is $100 at Catholic churches in my area. If I just walk in and sit down for two hymns at the Episcopal church down the street its a minimum of $300.
I went to undergraduate and am currently in graduate school for Music which is specifically geared toward the church and liturgical celebrations.
A simple fact is that of all the Parish staff, only two groups affect the entire congregation on a weekly basis, the clergy and musicians. Why the Catholic church allows untrained persons to put the words and music into the mouths and eyes of the congregations, which sometimes are completely against Catholic Doctrine, I will never understand.
While it is true that the Catholic Rite does not require music, a majority of “church-goers” attend worship because of the musical experience. Wherever I play for Mass, the congregation is always delighted to have music and if I’m away on vacation and there is no substitute to be found, members of the congregation always come back and tell me they truly missed the music at Mass while I was away. Congregations appreciate and want music in their liturgical celebrations, be it chant, traditional, or contemporary.
Should musicians be paid? YES. Musicians do not simply show up on Sunday morning sit down and an organ, piano, or stand at a microphone and play/sing. It takes training, hours of practice per week, and extensive amounts of time planning and researching the various texts (propers, psalms, readings, seasonal texts) which can be used for just one Mass with a congregation. That work is nearly doubled when there is a choir involved because you expand the options to include the vast choral repertoire. Besides the clergy, every other church staff member has holidays and most Holy Days off. At Christmas and Easter, I will sometimes sleep in the choir loft just because there is too little time to venture home between the rehearsals and Masses offered on those days. Do I complain that I have not opened presents on Christmas Day or even attended family celebrations since I began working in church music? No, I choose this profession (against many criticisms from friends and others in the church music business) and would not continue if it did not bring such great joy to me. It would be nice to have a salary that I could actually live on, let alone if I get married and have a family one day.
I went to undergraduate and am currently in graduate school for Music which is specifically geared toward the church and liturgical celebrations.
A simple fact is that of all the Parish staff, only two groups affect the entire congregation on a weekly basis, the clergy and musicians. Why the Catholic church allows untrained persons to put the words and music into the mouths and eyes of the congregations, which sometimes are completely against Catholic Doctrine, I will never understand.
While it is true that the Catholic Rite does not require music, a majority of “church-goers” attend worship because of the musical experience. Wherever I play for Mass, the congregation is always delighted to have music and if I’m away on vacation and there is no substitute to be found, members of the congregation always come back and tell me they truly missed the music at Mass while I was away. Congregations appreciate and want music in their liturgical celebrations, be it chant, traditional, or contemporary.
Should musicians be paid? YES. Musicians do not simply show up on Sunday morning sit down and an organ, piano, or stand at a microphone and play/sing. It takes training, hours of practice per week, and extensive amounts of time planning and researching the various texts (propers, psalms, readings, seasonal texts) which can be used for just one Mass with a congregation. That work is nearly doubled when there is a choir involved because you expand the options to include the vast choral repertoire. Besides the clergy, every other church staff member has holidays and most Holy Days off. At Christmas and Easter, I will sometimes sleep in the choir loft just because there is too little time to venture home between the rehearsals and Masses offered on those days. Do I complain that I have not opened presents on Christmas Day or even attended family celebrations since I began working in church music? No, I choose this profession (against many criticisms from friends and others in the church music business) and would not continue if it did not bring such great joy to me. It would be nice to have a salary that I could actually live on, let alone if I get married and have a family one day.
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Incomplete
Guest
I can’t speak for other parishes, but I can tell you about mine, and how it works.
Our director of music is paid. She has all the responsibilities mentioned in other posts and more. Sure, the priest could do that, but he’s pretty busy himself. She’s essentially on-call 24/7. As has been mentioned, volunteers cancel all the time, so she has to look for replacements. Speaking of volunteers cancelling, it’s one reason it would be difficult to piecemeal her job out to volunteers (that, and a lot of this stuff has to work in conjunction with the other stuff. And I suspect that volunteers would tend to choose their favorite music rather than the most appropriate music.)
It’s not just that she’s a talented musician that she gets paid. She also understands choosing correct music for each liturgy, music that is in keeping with the readings, music that is doctrinally sound, etc. She needs to know and obey copyright laws. She has a budget to keep. She rehearses the choir. And it’s not just for weekend Mass. As others have said, there’s funerals and weddings. I’m not sure that she even sees her family during Holy Week!
I can’t tell you the times I’ve walked into the parish and she’s been there, even well into the evening. Yet it’s only a part-time job for her.
Having said all of this, I think one part about paying someone who puts in a lot of time is because otherwise, as has been said, the people we pay would not be able to spend that kind of time if it was free. They would need to have another job to support their family.
Our choir and cantors volunteer their time. Sometimes, when there is a special reason, it can be a lot of time. Thank goodness we have them.
Good music does make a difference. We are known for having good music in our parish, and it does help us worship better. I know of some people who were at risk of leaving the Church for all the wrong reasons…people who didn’t really understand the Church and were attending parishes that were somewhat lifeless in their worship. They came to our parish before leaving the Church altogether…and stayed. And learned. And grew.
Our former priest was something special. I used to call him our secret weapon, because my daughter would bring her agnostic and atheist and anti-Catholic friends, they would hear him, and they would hear the sense he made…and it made a difference.
We have a new priest now, and he is big on (and excellent at) catechesis in his homilies. So even if they are coming to us because of our musical reputation, they stay and learn…and some of them change.
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Sarabande
Guest
Actually, one can learn how to play an instrument through private lessons without needing to attend an actual school. They can still spend thousands of dollars in training though. For centuries, people didn’t attend school. They would be trained privately. It wasn’t until recently that people looked to the degree for proof of ability. Most of my training from the age of four through now has been private, with the exception of attending a conservatory for a time to get that “diploma” just so I could get heard at auditions and get a job. To me, for music especially, the final product is what matters, not the piece of paper saying you have a degree in music, as I’ve worked with people who attended music institutions and could not play or sing their way out of a paper bag.
For a classical training in voice, I’ve never heard anyone without that training sound amazing. Some might have a natural vocal talent, but it needs to be honed in order to sound amazing. Again, that is in classical singing, not in other singing styles. So, yes, that is part of the reason why people look at singing differently. It’s this belief that anyone can do it, when it really isn’t true for certain styles of singing. I’ve heard pleasant, untrained voices cantor and they did their job competently enough, but not enough to warrant getting compensated. I had a natural, pretty singing voice when I was younger and started singing in choirs and cantoring before any major vocal training. People thought I sounded amazing then, but in reality I didn’t. I have recordings of myself and I definitely did not sound amazing. It sounded like a girl with a natural gift who had a more gifted voice than most people around me, but still needed to be honed. I was fortunate in that I was a perfectionist and understood that I was NOT awesome or amazing. (I still don’t consider myself awesome or amazing, although I know I am very good at what I do and was given a gift from God.) I would have never thought I deserved compensation. I admit I have different standards for classical singing which is always a good foundation for almost any kind of singing, as I don’t sing like a full-fledged opera singer when I cantor or chant or sing polyphony, etc. The music doesn’t call for it and would sound ridiculous if I did, but my training helps me do the various styles of singing very well.
I think the underlying reason is really that they don’t think singers have to be musicians and thus don’t deserve to be compensated since they didn’t put the time in to hone their skills and be a complete musician. It’s true, many singers aren’t (including classical singers) and it can be a pain for other musicians since they can’t read music. Most musicians don’t want to work with non-musician singers because of that. It takes so much more time to rehearse with them and they end up having to teach them what they should already know. (There is the musician joke a couple of my instrumentalist friends would say whenever they would introduce me. “This is Sarabande. She is a singer AND a musician.”) lol!
To be a well-trained singing musician, it is just as much hard work as being a well-trained organist, pianist, guitarist, etc. And as many of my instrumentalist friends who have also done training in voice have told me, they think that being a master at singing was actually harder than being a master at their own instrument, which I’ve found interesting. It is a lot of work.
But singers are more a dime a dozen than are organists or pianists. As someone pointed out, “supply and demand”. It’s less likely a cantor will be paid, which is understandable, than an organist, for instance. Well-trained instrumentalists for Catholic churches are hard to come by right now, especially organists. I’ve been fortunate that I work at two parishes which do pay their cantors, but they are held to a much higher standard. They have to be trained as a musician as well as a classical singer and be available when needed. They have to keep up their instrument with daily practice and study, be prepared without having to be taught by the music director (since you have to be a musician) and if they don’t meet those expectations, they are let go.
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Phemie
Guest
Of course many in my parish expect exactly that – that any parishioner who is a trades person donate his/her services as required. Some do but I would never think of asking.
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Exorcist
Guest
What does your pastor do? How big is your parish?
My parish is a giant and the “liturgy director” IS the pastor.
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clem456
Guest
Oh let’s see. Our pastor attends the finance council, pastoral council, stewardship cmte, rcia inquiry, and many more. Plus visiting the sick and all the other extracurriculars. There is also an associate pastor who is a monsignor. There is a paid pastoral assoc. (DRE) and a paid volunteer coordinator, youth director, and development coordinator (all separate paid positions).What does your pastor do? How big is your parish?
My parish is a giant and the “liturgy director” IS the pastor.
I’ll try to paste our parish calendar below.
Not sure how to categorize the size of the parish.
It’s a very active parish in the community.
The pastor could not begin to be the liturgy director. Our director trains the priests in our parish in music, sung responses, litugy changes etc…
The calendar only partially pasted:
6:15AM Mass in Church
9:30AM ESL in EAS 9:30 to 11:30 am
5:00PM Mass at Shrine
6:00PM AA in Social Hall
2 6:15AM Mass in Church
9:00AM Mass in Church
9:00AM Anionting of the Sick in GS
11:00AM No subject
7:00PM Spanish Holy Hour in Church
3 6:15AM Mass in Church
9:00AM Mass in Church
4 7:00AM Men’s Gospel Study in JD
8:00AM Mass in Church
3:30PM Reconciliation in Church
4:30PM Mass in Church
5:30PM Catholicism Project in GS
5:30PM Babysitting for Catholicism Project in JD
week 5 7:00AM Mass in Church
9:00AM Mass in Church
11:00AM Mass in Church
1:30PM Spanish Mass in Church
5:00PM Mass in Church
6 6:15AM Mass in Church
8:00AM Reserved in John XXIII
10:00AM St. Vincent de Paul in MTR
7:00PM Baptism prep in MT room
7 9:00AM Communion Service in Church
9:00AM Spanish Prayer Group in John XXIII
10:00AM Book Study: Grace in MTR
1:00PM Rosary in Church
8 6:15AM Mass in Church
9:30AM ESL in EAS 9:30 to 11:30 am
5:00PM Mass at Shrine
6:00PM AA in Social Hall
7:00PM Stewardship in MTR
7:00PM Family Ministry Meeting in Elizabeth Ann Seton Room
8:00PM Finance Council in JDR
9 6:15AM Mass in Church
9:00AM Mass in Church
7:00PM Pastoral Council in JDR
7:00PM Social Concerns in JPXXIII
7:00PM Spanish Holy Hour in Church
10 6:15AM Mass in Church
9:00AM Mass in Church
9:00AM Ladies Bible Study in MT room
11 7:00AM Men’s Gospel Study in JD
3:30PM Reconciliation in Church
4:30PM Mass in Church
week 12 7:00AM Mass in Church
9:00AM Mass in Church
11:00AM Mass in Church
1:30PM Spanish Mass in Church
5:00PM Mass in Church
5:00PM Diocesan LIMEX Graduation Celebration at 5 pm Mass in Ch…
6:00PM Diocesan LIMEX Celebration Reception in GS 6-8 pm
13 6:15AM Mass in Church
8:00AM Reserved in John XXIII
10:00AM St. Vincent de Paul in MTR
6:30PM BeFriender meeting in EAS
7:00PM Baptism prep in MT room & church
14 9:00AM Communion Service in Church
9:00AM Spanish Prayer Group in John XXIII
10:00AM Healing Oils of the Bible in
7:00PM Healing Oils of the Bible in JD 7-9pm
15 6:15AM Mass in Church
9:30AM ESL in EAS 9:30 to 11:30 am
5:00PM Mass at Shrine
6:00PM AA in Social Hall
16 6:15AM Mass in Church
9:00AM Mass in Church
9:00AM FCEDO webinar in JD
7:00PM Spanish Holy Hour in Church
17 6:15AM Mass in Church
9:00AM Mass in Church
18 7:00AM Men’s Gospel Study in JD
3:30PM Reconciliation in Church
4:30PM Mass in Church
week 19 7:00AM Mass in Church
9:00AM Mass in Church
11:00AM Mass in Church
1:30PM Spanish Mass in Church
5:00PM Mass in Church
20 6:15AM Mass in Church
8:00AM Reserved in John XXIII
10:00AM St. Vincent de Paul in MTR
6:00PM NCS 1st Grade Parent Mtg in GS
21 9:00AM Communion Service in Church
9:00AM Spanish Prayer Group in John XXIII
22 6:15AM Mass in Church
9:30AM ESL in EAS 9:30 to 11:30 am
4:00PM FCEDO Endowment Bd. Mtg. in JD
5:00PM Mass at Shrine
6:00PM AA in Social Hall
23 6:15AM Mass in Church
9:00AM Mass in Church
7:00PM Spanish Holy Hour in Church
24 6:15AM Mass in Church
9:00AM Mass in Church
9:00AM Ladies Bible Study in MT room
25 7:00AM Men’s Gospel Study in JD
3:30PM Reconciliation in Church
4:30PM Mass in Church
week 26 7:00AM Mass in Church
9:00AM Mass in Church
10:00AM Family Ministry mtg in GS
11:00AM Mass in Church
1:00PM Parish bus trip meeting in GS
1:30PM Spanish Mass in Church
5:00PM Mass in Church
6:00PM 7th Grade Orientation in GS
27 6:15AM Mass in Church
8:00AM Reserved in John XXIII
10:00AM St. Vincent de Paul in MTR
28 9:00AM Communion Service in Church
9:00AM Spanish Prayer Group in John XXIII
7:00PM PSR Catechists Mtg. in JD
29 6:15AM Mass in Church
9:30AM ESL in EAS 9:30 to 11:30 am
6:00PM AA in Social Hall
7:00PM RCIA Mtg. in JD
30 6:15AM Mass in Church
9:00AM Mass in Church
9:00AM Bulk Mailin in JD Rm
7:00PM Spanish Holy Hour in Church
7:00PM Retreat #1 in MT
31 6:15AM Mass in Church
9:00AM Mass in Church
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englishredrose
Guest
am not stooping to such a provokotive question.
as we are talking about regular worshippers in this thread being paid not someone who takes care of the whole parish…I’m not trying to be provocative but I am confused by your statement. Visiting priests do not take care of the whole parish. And unless they are retired they are being paid a salary by their own parish above and beyond their stipend for the Mass at the parish they are visiting.am not stooping to such a provokotive question.
Perhaps there is a difference in the way priests are paid between the UK and the USA?
As far as Church musicians are concerned I believe there has been a long tradition of giving a church musician a set salary if there are regular hours that he/she is expected to be available to either be in the music office or to be playing for the parish.
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The_Curt_Jester
Guest
I thought we were talking about musicians? If we’re talking about just the worshippers, then I agree… we shouldn’t be paying people to sit in the pews. Probably should get back to topic though.am not stooping to such a provokotive question.
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Joannm
Guest
NPM also has a great convention each year. I just went to the one in Pittsburgh. There are usually close to 2,000 musicians there and there are workshops on every topic imaginable for church musicians including some of the issues brought up here. Next year it will be in Wash. DC the last week of July I believe.I think that’s true. You’d think a lot of priests could sympathize because most Catholics think they only work on Sundays.
The National Association of Pastoral Musicians has webinars.
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Exorcist
Guest
A paid lay “liturgy director.”
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The_Curt_Jester
Guest
My thoughts, too. Why not at least the assistant pastor? The pastor where I work says the priest is the liturgy director and no lay person should have that role.A paid lay “liturgy director.”
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clem456
Guest
Is there a point to that sentence?A paid lay “liturgy director.”
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Sarabande
Guest
I agree and understand the pastor, but not all parishes have assistant pastors or other resident priests to help, unfortunately.
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pnewton
Guest
This usage is called scare quotes.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scare_quotes
We have not liturgy director or committee. There are three of us that make our own decisions based on guidelines we agree upon as we understand Church teaching and our specific parish needs.
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Sarabande
Guest
I’m not sure if it is heaven, but it very nice to be a part of a parish who is doing something like this. It could be a good example of how this can work for a parish who would like to have quality musicianship and music liturgy, but don’t know how to get funding for it. There are, of course, various factors which can affect the way it will/will not work.
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