Should Catholic Teenagers understand and be knowledgable of NFP?

[Rau]

…I don’t know why LongingSoul accused me of those things…

I think potential for misunderstanding may have been generated by the fact that your post to which LS responded (and in a way not to your liking!..) detailed a kind of anti-NFP stance but attributed it to unidentified “other people”. But I am speculating.

 

[Rau]

The very clear solution to this would be if the people who claim to have actually used NFP with a ‘contraceptive mentality’, will actually spell out the bones of that mentality. bitterhope and Hoosier Daddy have skirted the challenge time and again. All of page 6 we were waiting for baited breath for that explanation but as usual is was duck and dive and divert.

You both claim to have experienced this mentality. Please define it in plain honest language.

I am sure there is a real meaning, with some substance. My objection is conflating it with contraception, and for two resons:

1. Objectively, there is no contraception happening;
2. Those who do use contraception do not necessarily have a unique mentality that motivates them. They want kids. They want to plan their family. They may have identical motivation to those using NFP and employ it for the same amount of time in identical circumstances. I kind of feel that persons using contraception are being verballed - on the wrong basis!

 

[bitterhope]

If I have the opportunity to hear a priest use the term in the NFP context, and to query him as to meaning, I will certainly do so.

But can you tell me - what is a “contraceptive mentality” - as you use that term here?

I don’t believe any poster has done that.

I have explained multiple times on CAF how I used NFP and why I confessed to my priest and even how my priest responded. I really don’t want to open myself up to all the shaming that happens anytime I (or anyone else) admits to doing this.

I will say that my intent (even though NFP had an effectiveness of 0% for me) was to have the “perfect” two child family simply because that is the “responsible” thing to do, because I wanted life to be my way, because quite honestly I viewed children as a possession that I could have when I wanted and only as much of as I wanted. Children are blessings, yes, but we don’t need it want to many of them is exactly how I thought. I couldn’t use ABC because I didn’t want to go to Hell, and that was the only thing that stopped me from using anything other than NFP. I switched methods trying to make it work. I bought monitors to make sure it would finally give me the desired results. Yes, to me it was Catholic contraception and nothing else.

No, not everybody uses NFP as contraception, but there are those of us that do.

No, I’m not condemning anyone else. Just admitting my own sins here. Not looking to find anyone else’s.

That is why I understand the phrase. I lived it

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

That is fine, but his questions should then be addressed to the clergy who use it currently, not some woman on a forum who only just today decided stupidly to ask what it means.

I owe you an apology.

Some may be trying to argue my position through you. You innocently asked a question. I tried to skirt it for this very reason. I’m not sure but it was probably me who brought this into this thread. in referencing HOW I would teach my daughters about NFP.

NFP is considered contraception by name in medical fields and in some theological ones. Many doubt it can be used that way because they feel they don’t want to
A) Accept the reality that NFP can be abused.
B) Dont want any kind of connotation with ABC.

The former is ridiculous. Of course it can be used as contraception. That is how it is sold. So it can indeed be used selfishly with a contraceptive mentality.
The latter is a valid concern. But it is not my fault that the prefix contra and the root “ception” have a literal meaning not just a drug company induced one.

Again, you are kind of caught in a crossfire of a jihad of sorts. Please do not take it personally.

Rau is a rational and respectful poster though Rau and I are engaging in debate tactics that are pprobably not charitable. I apologize for my part in the acrimony in this thread. I will refrain from engaging any further after this post in this thread because it is off topic and has degenerated into a sneaky debate on all sides.

I’m sorry. Feel free to PM me or start a thread on the subject. Or view some of the other NFP threads. This is discussed at length many times.

 

[LongingSoul]

I am sure there is a real meaning, with some substance. My objection is conflating it with contraception, and for two resons:

1. Objectively, there is no contraception happening;
2. Those who do use contraception do not necessarily have a unique mentality that motivates them. They want kids. They want to plan their family. They may have identical motivation to those using NFP and employ it for the same amount of time in identical circumstances. I kind of feel that persons using contraception are being verballed - on the wrong basis!

It’s become critical to know the bones of what they mean by ‘contraceptive mentality’ and having personal testimony prevents the problems of everyone speaking theoretically. They need to express the exact sentiment they had that they are calling ‘contraceptive’.

I believe for the sake of catechising the generations to come and those who are converting… that clarity is essential because everyone knows that if a law is not based on authentic reasoning… it isn’t going to have merit in teaching.

Contraception like other intrinsic evils, is an act that violates the dignity of the other involved in the act and renders the act infertile. To have a contraceptive mentality according to official church teaching is to believe in the destruction of the act for any purpose whatsoever. The reason that people practice periodic continence is to under every circumstance preserve the integrity of the act itself. If they avoid sex for just reasons or for serious reasons… they uphold the noble principle of not closing sex to its life giving process.

 

[bitterhope]

The very clear solution to this would be if the people who claim to have actually used NFP with a ‘contraceptive mentality’, will actually spell out the bones of that mentality. bitterhope and Hoosier Daddy have skirted the challenge time and again. All of page 6 we were waiting for baited breath for that explanation but as usual is was duck and dive and divert.

You both claim to have experienced this mentality. Please define it in plain honest language.

You know this is untrue and I have addressed just that very thing in multiple threads. And to you directly multiple times. Ignoring or denying won’t change the truth. Neither will shaming or misquoting or any of the other tactics you chose to deploy on me. Neither will labeling me as something I am not.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I have explained multiple times on CAF how I used NFP and why I confessed to my priest and even how my priest responded. I really don’t want to open myself up to all the shaming that happens anytime I (or anyone else) admits to doing this.

I will say that my intent (even though NFP had an effectiveness of 0% for me) was to have the “perfect” two child family simply because that is the “responsible” thing to do, because I wanted life to be my way, because quite honestly I viewed children as a possession that I could have when I wanted and only as much of as I wanted. Children are blessings, yes, but we don’t need it want to many of them is exactly how I thought. I couldn’t use ABC because I didn’t want to go to Hell, and that was the only thing that stopped me from using anything other than NFP. I switched methods trying to make it work. I bought monitors to make sure it would finally give me the desired results. Yes, to me it was Catholic contraception and nothing else.

No, not everybody uses NFP as contraception, but there are those of us that do.

No, I’m not condemning anyone else. Just admitting my own sins here. Not looking to find anyone else’s.

That is why I understand the phrase. I lived it

I hope it’s ok for me to comment.

I understand that you had feel you had selfish motives to limit your family.

But at the same time you tried NFP I assume by abstaining when you thought you were fertile.

I am not understanding how abstaining = contraception. Unless you mean that being intimate = contraception?

The reason why contraception is wrong is the lack of reverence for the marital act.

That is why NFP is permitted, there is no rupture of unitive and procreative.

 

[Rau]

…I will say that my intent (even though NFP had an effectiveness of 0% for me) was to have the “perfect” two child family simply because that is the “responsible” thing to do, because I wanted life to be my way, because quite honestly I viewed children as a possession that I could have when I wanted and only as much of as I wanted. Children are blessings, yes, but we don’t need it want to many of them is exactly how I thought. …

I understand that entirely. I am sure that is quite common and I would not beat yourself over it and I certainly don’t want you to relive anything that causes you unhappiness.

I only remark that people who have used or use contraception are not **necessarily ** “guilty” of the moral flaw that you *might feel *arose for you. They may take exactly the same view toward children, including a desire to plan, as the holiest of Catholic do - they just chose the wrong means. [Contraception is well-defined in the Catechism and encyclicals - it is all about ‘means’.]

That is why I take the view that “contraceptive mentality” is not descriptive of the issue at hand. You immediately associate it with something in your personal life, but others can only read the words and assume that NFP can be contraceptive. It can be abused and misused, but not as that expression suggests.

 

[Burt_Macklin]

I find it strange that so much ink is spilled on NFP without a just reason. It’s something that is only venially sinful. Can you imagine posters just as concerned over the sins of eating too soon, too expensively, too much, too eagerly, or too daintily? There is too much of a fixation on any and every sexual issue.

 

[LongingSoul]

I have explained multiple times on CAF how I used NFP and why I confessed to my priest and even how my priest responded. I really don’t want to open myself up to all the shaming that happens anytime I (or anyone else) admits to doing this.

I will say that my intent (even though NFP had an effectiveness of 0% for me) was to have the “perfect” two child family simply because that is the “responsible” thing to do, because I wanted life to be my way, because quite honestly I viewed children as a possession that I could have when I wanted and only as much of as I wanted. Children are blessings, yes, but we don’t need it want to many of them is exactly how I thought. I couldn’t use ABC because I didn’t want to go to Hell, and that was the only thing that stopped me from using anything other than NFP. I switched methods trying to make it work. I bought monitors to make sure it would finally give me the desired results. Yes, to me it was Catholic contraception and nothing else.

No, not everybody uses NFP as contraception, but there are those of us that do.

No, I’m not condemning anyone else. Just admitting my own sins here. Not looking to find anyone else’s.

That is why I understand the phrase. I lived it

I was hoping for a clearer definition like …contraception is the intention to avoid pregnancy without a good enough reason. Your answer seems fuzzied by unresolved emotional issues surrounding the failure to master fertility awareness, that being the impetus to find your own attitude and NFP intrinsically evil for you. It didn’t provide a rational argument for contraceptive NFP.

The fact is that contraception is an act like murder or fornicating or lying. A contraceptive mentality by logical definition is one that leads to the act of contraception ie. rendering the sex act infertile.

 

[Rau]

…NFP is considered contraception by name in medical fields and in some theological ones. Many doubt it can be used that way because they feel they don’t want to
A) Accept the reality that NFP can be abused.
B) Dont want any kind of connotation with ABC.

Certainly NFP can be abused - I think all in this discussion agree. Certainly there should be no connection of NFP to contraception/ABC since, by definition, they are distinct.

Of course it can be used as contraception. That is how it is sold. So it can indeed be used selfishly…

It can only be use as “contraception” if you have a definition of “contraception” different from mine. I am adopting the one in HV:
*Contraception is “any action which, either in anticipation of the conjugal act [sexual intercourse], or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” (Humanae Vitae 14). *I can’t speak to how certain people may have ‘sold’ NFP - I learned it as the only licit means to avoid a pregnancy in a time window, and as a means to assist producing a pregnancy. I am quite certain this is right. I am also certain that one’s motivation for using it may be morally flawed, but labelling that “contraceptive mentality” is absurd language as I’ve explained multiple times. It either misleads someone into thinking they might be guilty of contraception or suggests something about the motives of persons using contraception, with no basis.

Rau is a rational and respectful poster though Rau and I are engaging in debate tactics that are p[probably not charitable.

Thanks, though I am not aware of any conscious tactics on my part - other than posting what I think in rational language! If my arguments and rationale are faulty, point it out. Since I raised my issues with “contraceptive mentality” way back on page 6, no one has posted a single statement taking issue with what I said.
[/quote]

 

[bitterhope]

I understand that entirely. I am sure that is quite common and I would not beat yourself over it and I certainly don’t want you to relive anything that causes you unhappiness.

I only remark that people who have used or use contraception are not **necessarily ** “guilty” of the moral flaw that you *might feel *arose for you. They may take exactly the same view toward children, including a desire to plan, as the holiest of Catholic do - they just chose the wrong means. [Contraception is well-defined in the Catechism and encyclicals - it is all about ‘means’.]

That is why I take the view that “contraceptive mentality” is not descriptive of the issue at hand. You immediately associate it with something in your personal life, but others can only read the words and assume that NFP can be contraceptive. It can be abused and misused, but not as that expression suggests.

I can understand your point here. I just don’t know what can be done about other than addressing this to the clergy because as long as the clergy use it, other people will as well. I really don’t know what else can be fine but I would be willing to find alternative wording for my own personal use when speaking about NFP issues. If you have other suggestions, I am open to hearing them.

 

[LongingSoul]

I find it strange that so much ink is spilled on NFP without a just reason. It’s something that is only venially sinful. Can you imagine posters just as concerned over the sins of eating too soon, too expensively, too much, too eagerly, or too daintily? There is too much of a fixation on any and every sexual issue.

Also there is a clear rejection of the virtue of continence going on. Christopher West noted the phenomenon of those who reject NFP directly as a result of not being able or wanting to practice continence in marriage. There is often a lack of balance in those focusing on the unjust use of avoidance, neglecting the reality of concupiscence within marriage.

Just posting StJPII’s lovely tribute to the virtue of continence in TOB…

ewtn.com.au/library/PAPALDOC/jp2tb123.htm

ewtn.com.au/library/PAPALDOC/jp2tb124.htm

ewtn.com.au/library/PAPALDOC/jp2tb125.htm

 

[bitterhope]

I was hoping for a clearer definition like …contraception is the intention to avoid pregnancy without a good enough reason. Your answer seems fuzzied by unresolved emotional issues surrounding the failure to master fertility awareness, that being the impetus to find your own attitude and NFP intrinsically evil for you. It didn’t provide a rational argument for contraceptive NFP.

The fact is that contraception is an act like murder or fornicating or lying. A contraceptive mentality by logical definition is one that leads to the act of contraception ie. rendering the sex act infertile.

How much more clearly can I say it than “I used it as Catholic contraception?”

I was afraid of Hell. I wanted to use ABC but couldn’t because I did not want to go against the Church. What alternative did I have? NFP.

Once again, NFP is not evil. The way I used it was sinful. My priest agreed with me that it was sinful–mortal not venial.

I am SO VERY HAPPY that I was unsuccessful with NFP. I am not disappointed in any way that I failed to “master fertility awareness.” If I had, I wouldn’t have the awesome family I have, or my personal saints in heaven praying my way home to them.

Yes, I avoided pregnancy with no good, just, serious or grave reason. I followed a contraceptive method that the Catholic Church approved of and the WHO teaches to women in third world countries. Why? Because I was selfish. Is everyone that uses NFP selfish? Absolutely not.

I can find absolutely no way to make this clearer. So please just quit asking.

 

[marymary1975]

The dioceses I used to be in my early 20s had a strict policy of not teaching NFP to anyone that was not married. I happened to learned it because I used to be part of a pro life group that gave speeches for the church and a small group of us that were single were taught about so we could have the knowledge when we were talking about contraception but that was a rare iccasion. I, particularly now that I am married, disagree with the idea that you have to wait until marriage to learn NFP, particularly for women.
Women need to know their bodies way before their marriage. I think waiting until marriage is too late and may cause problems

 

[LongingSoul]

I have no idea if LS is familiar as familiar with traditionalism as I am, but a couple of points.

My experience is somewhat limited because Australia doesn’t have a large traditionalist ‘tradition’ in Catholic circles the way the US does. The ones we’ve experienced were cult like, proudly snobbish about their holiness and aggressive towards Vatican II as a general rule. They give off an impression of locked arm boundaries and active defiance even though there is no actual physical compound… and reject assimilation with others not of their severe rigidity. This global community is where I’ve got to experience the generalised traditionalist moreso than at home.

 

[Rau]

How much more clearly can I say it than “I used it as Catholic contraception?”

I was afraid of Hell. I wanted to use ABC but couldn’t because I did not want to go against the Church. What alternative did I have? NFP.

It is not wrong to do the right thing for fear of consequences. What you describe is not “contraception” nor “contraceptive” in any way whatsoever.

Once again, NFP is not evil. The way I used it was sinful.

Perhaps so - but we can be sure that the manner of any wrongdoing was not “contraceptive”, for that is well-defined.

Yes, I avoided pregnancy with no good, just, serious or grave reason.

Then say just that - don’t give it a misleading and inaccurate label.

I followed a contraceptive method that the Catholic Church approved

No. You followed a means to avoid pregnancy which the Church approves because it is **NOT **contraceptive. You may have had flawed motivation or justification - but that does not make NFP contraceptive.

 

[bitterhope]

I hope it’s ok for me to comment.

I understand that you had feel you had selfish motives to limit your family.

But at the same time you tried NFP I assume by abstaining when you thought you were fertile.

I am not understanding how abstaining = contraception. Unless you mean that being intimate = contraception?

The reason why contraception is wrong is the lack of reverence for the marital act.

That is why NFP is permitted, there is no rupture of unitive and procreative.

I did disrespect the marital act because I chose to separate babies from sex. Look, I know not all people do this. I did. Sex was for me and my husband to come together, especially after long term separations (deployments, training, schools…) and that was all.

You are a lady that is very respectful and helpful. You are always kind. You embrace your struggles and carry on. I have no doubt that your use of NFP is in line with proper thinking. Mine was screwed up, distorted and just plain wrong.

God has a good sense of humor. It didn’t work out the way I planned. It went completely opposite. And He knew that was best for me.

 

[Rau]

I did disrespect the marital act because I chose to separate babies from sex.

Separating a desire for a baby with a desire for sex is - itself - permissible, and often good. We all seek that separation at times throughout marriage. Responsible Parenthood is also advocated by the Church. Therefore - that separation is NOT itself disrespecting the marital act. [Contraception is certainly doing that.]

You said it better in a prior post - you lacked proper reason. Perhaps that can be thought of - in some sense - as disrespecting (or more likely, “overlooking”) the intent of marriage. Indeed - to avoid sex entirely would be that, but clearly not disrespectful of the marital act.

 

[bitterhope]

Separating a desire for a baby with a desire for sex is - itself - permissible, and often good. We all seek that separation at times throughout marriage. Responsible Parenthood is also advocated by the Church. Therefore - that separation is NOT itself disrespecting the marital act. [Contraception is certainly doing that.]

You said it better in a prior post - you lacked proper reason. Perhaps that can be thought of - in some sense - as disrespecting (or more likely, “overlooking”) the intent of marriage. Indeed - to avoid sex entirely would be that, but clearly not disrespectful of the marital act.

Probably you are right if it’s done for a time with good cause but when it is a long term (or in my case I intended it to be permanent) without good cause, it is disrespectful. It was disrespectful toward my husband as well, not just disrespectful of marital intimacy.