Should Catholic Teenagers understand and be knowledgable of NFP?

[UbiCaritas]

It follows that if circumstances prevent proper learning of a method, application of the method will likely fail. No argument there. But anecdotes don’t substitute for studies.

One thing to consider about those studies, though: several prominent NFP groups are notorious for ascribing what are objectively method failures (see Kelfa’s descriptions, above) as user failures.

In breastfeeding NFP studies, for example, simply having Daddy use his finger to settle Junior for five minutes while Mom showers one time, even if she follows every other bit of protocol perfectly, is enough to make the baby they didn’t intend to conceive two months postpartum a “user failure” baby, even though no rational person could seriously think that kiddo sucking on Daddy’s finger rather than Mommy for five minutes forced Mom to ovulate. Yep, that sort of thing is anecdotal (I mean, who’s going to study it?) but it is a significant enough problem that at least one higher-up at the CCL has been assigned to network with couples who’ve been told that sort of thing in order to reassess the process, since telling a frantic, terrified woman something so silly and unscientific, not to mention unkind (“well, if you were just a better parent and didn’t rely on your husband to take care of your baby, you wouldn’t be pregnant again!”) does rather tend to put her off of NFP.

 

[UbiCaritas]

I think that, after explaining to them thoroughly what the Church teaches about chastity and sexuality, that they need to know it exists and why. I’m torn on teaching them the specifics. I have a friend who, let’s say, was an expert practitioner from the time she was in her early teens and felt free to demonstrate her mastery of the technique with anyone and everyone as long as it wasn’t a fertile period. I know that if teens are going to have sex the actual methods aren’t the biggest issue, but the times this topic has come up with my wife, I can’t help thinking about that particular friend.

shrug

If you don’t teach your kids to drive, they can’t drive drunk. Doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be taught that life skill; it means they should be taught to use it responsibly.

 

[EasterJoy]

It seems more than reasonable that somewhere in the 13 year school curriculum, children would learn about the human reproductive system, including the ‘cycle’ that applies to the female system. That there is a fertile period and an infertile period (subject to anomalies) would be covered. All this is of no particular religious significance - and there is little point - within what is essentially a biology context - to proceed further to identify that there are observations one can make to determine the position in cycle.

I have no idea what, if anything much at all, is covered in high school (catholic) religious education programs. But if sexual morality is being covered, then presumably contraception and NFP would be covered - the latter to the level of principles, not to the level that a person having need to practice it would require.

This begs the question of what we reasonably anticipate might be taught in non-Catholic high schools. I imagine a fairly wide menu of contraceptive alternatives might be addressed, with a passing mention of “abstinence”.

Perhaps someone who attended School not so long ago can let us know what is covered?

It varies so widely. My Catholic high school had a marriage class with a class or two devoted to a presentation on natural family planning by a couple who taught it. There were questions and answers and it was made very clear that this was not the rhythm method and that it took education and self-knowledge to use the method effectively, the message being that this ought to be something you start learning well before your honeymoon if you discern that you and your spouse have a serious reason to avoid a honeymoon baby. A priest taught the ethics and explained the relevant passages in Humanae Vitae.

That was in the 1980s–it was an exceptional course, for its time, IMHO. I could not tell you if even the same school still teaches that topic in the same depth since the teacher running that course at the time retired from teaching.

These days, even the biology section on sexually-transmitted diseases has to update to include the rather recent findings that the human papillomaviruses can cause cancer and that there is no vaccine that covers all the strains.

 

[LongingSoul]

One thing to consider about those studies, though: several prominent NFP groups are notorious for ascribing what are objectively method failures (see Kelfa’s descriptions, above) as user failures.

In breastfeeding NFP studies, for example, simply having Daddy use his finger to settle Junior for five minutes while Mom showers one time, even if she follows every other bit of protocol perfectly, is enough to make the baby they didn’t intend to conceive two months postpartum a “user failure” baby, even though no rational person could seriously think that kiddo sucking on Daddy’s finger rather than Mommy for five minutes forced Mom to ovulate. Yep, that sort of thing is anecdotal (I mean, who’s going to study it?) but it is a significant enough problem that at least one higher-up at the CCL has been assigned to network with couples who’ve been told that sort of thing in order to reassess the process, since telling a frantic, terrified woman something so silly and unscientific, not to mention unkind (“well, if you were just a better parent and didn’t rely on your husband to take care of your baby, you wouldn’t be pregnant again!”) does rather tend to put her off of NFP.

I really think that the first thing that should be acknowledged about NFP is that it is not a product so it cannot fail in the sense that a pill or condom or some other product can fail. It’s an attitude, belief (for Catholics) and lifestyle. Encompassed within the NFP proper mentality is the sense of the cooperation between the person/couple and nature and that involves not just a knowledge of methods and techniques but a good personal awareness of your natural monthly changes.

The problem especially with those who’ve used the pill long term, is that there is zero awareness of their personal cycle because the pill overrides nature completely. The compound mix tricks the body into thinking that it is pregnant and that prevents ovulation. A woman on the pill has not experience of the natural ups and downs of hormones or the the journey to ovulation and back again. Even the monthly bleed is not a menstruation. It is referred to as a ‘withdrawal’ bleed and only a consequence of the pill being stopped for the 7 days.

Someone coming to learn about NFP who has no working experience of their natural cycles is going to find it hardest of all. The body itself has to relearn the pattern and that can result in long term infertility for some who stop the pill after long use. The psyche also has has developed a feel for the freedom of sexual activity with no link to natural cycles and that is a difficult limitation to conform to after years of no restriction.

I’m not sure if CCL actually uses the term ‘user failure’ of if this is the interpretation of their explanation by those who mistake NFP for a product rather than a lifestyle… but it is completely legitimate to acknowledge a reading/observation difficulty on the part of the person as the reason that a pregnancy has occurred. That observation is a critical part of NFP that is completely absent in contraception. One is a product failure, the other is a problem with observation and symptom reading.

(I speak for the majority of NFP devotees and acknowledge that there are some people with things like induced ovulation who can never depend on the usual givens.)

This would be the great benefit of teaching girls at a young age prior to their sometimes early forays into the contraceptive life because once the pill is in the picture, there is nothing much biologically to observe and experience.

 

[Gordon_Sims]

I think that would be an anomoly outside of marriage. For one, STD’s are so prevalent among the unmarried promiscuous that your friend must have been literally riddled. For a woman motivated enough to master fertility awareness to that degree it seems out of character to go ahead and engage in unprotected sex with a lot of anyones and everyones.

I wouldn’t say “riddled,” but that’s a big part of why her behavior still gnaws at me. It was never her fault, though; it was always the guys’. She always bragged that she was regular as clockwork and as far as I know, she never got pregnant so I have no reason to doubt her claims. Then again, she may have been phenomenally lucky or infertile.
Burt Macklin:

I don’t believe you. Not one little bit.

That’s your prerogative. I’ve been friends with her for over 25 years and have a lot more than just her word to go on (although I knew better than to get involved with her). I won’t go into more detail about her actions and decisions, suffice to say that I never had reason to doubt her claims.

 

[Gordon_Sims]

shrug

If you don’t teach your kids to drive, they can’t drive drunk. Doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be taught that life skill; it means they should be taught to use it responsibly.

I agree, but when someone adopts an attitude of “here’s a great way to do this without having to use that,” and the “that” in question would prevent things like diseases, you end up with an unfortunate and potentially very hazardous situation. I will say it helped reaffirm my conviction to wait until I was married. Other people I know didn’t take away that same lesson, though, which is why the idea of too much knowledge about NFP for teens still worries me.

 

[Burt_Macklin]

That’s your prerogative. I’ve been friends with her for over 25 years and have a lot more than just her word to go on (although I knew better than to get involved with her). I won’t go into more detail about her actions and decisions, suffice to say that I never had reason to doubt her claims.

I will grant you that she’s not one of the more improbable characters that you’ve written about. Just something about the combination of a woman who is enough of a hedonist to let you do “whatever with her” but also meticulous enough to chart daily and abstain when the sex is the best struck me as really odd.

 

[Gordon_Sims]

I will grant you that she’s not one of the more improbable characters that you’ve written about. Just something about the combination of a woman who is enough of a hedonist to let you do “whatever with her” but also meticulous enough to chart daily and abstain when the sex is the best struck me as really odd.

This was in her teens to early 20s, if that has any bearing. She’s been in a committed relationship for the last 15 or so years. I can’t speak to the workings of that relationship but the fact that they’ve never had a kid made me think she could be infertile. Either way, she’s one of those friends who will eventually be all sorts of cautionary tales for my daughters once they get older.

 

[Allegra]

This was in her teens to early 20s, if that has any bearing. She’s been in a committed relationship for the last 15 or so years. I can’t speak to the workings of that relationship but the fact that they’ve never had a kid made me think she could be infertile. Either way, she’s one of those friends who will eventually be all sorts of cautionary tales for my daughters once they get older.

Based on your posts, your entire community is a cautionary tale.

 

[Gordon_Sims]

Based on your posts, your entire community is a cautionary tale.

Ha ha. My hope is that this friend’s cautionary tale-generating days are behind her although I’m not too confident.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Ha ha. My hope is that this friend’s cautionary tale-generating days are behind her although I’m not too confident.

One can’t help but wonder why you have friends like this. Something about being judged by the company we keep…

 

[Gordon_Sims]

One can’t help but wonder why you have friends like this. Something about being judged by the company we keep…

People can repent and change their ways. I’d like to think she has, although I’m not entirely convinced she’s not still capable of making some major screw-ups. If one would judge her on the last 15 years of her life they’d get an overall positive impression. And, honestly, at the same time I know a lot of people who, on the surface, would be viewed as upstanding, exceptional people but who are actually some of the vilest creatures you’ll ever meet. I’d take this friend over them any day.

 

[EasterJoy]

One can’t help but wonder why you have friends like this. Something about being judged by the company we keep…

…yes, yes, yes, “a friend of tax collectors and sinners,” we get it…

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

People can repent and change their ways. I’d like to think she has, although I’m not entirely convinced she’s not still capable of making some major screw-ups. If one would judge her on the last 15 years of her life they’d get an overall positive impression. And, honestly, at the same time I know a lot of people who, on the surface, would be viewed as upstanding, exceptional people but who are actually some of the vilest creatures you’ll ever meet. I’d take this friend over them any day.

It’s your life. You get to choose who you get to be influenced by.

 

[Joe_5859]

I think that, after explaining to them thoroughly what the Church teaches about chastity and sexuality, that they need to know it exists and why. I’m torn on teaching them the specifics. I have a friend who, let’s say, was an expert practitioner from the time she was in her early teens and felt free to demonstrate her mastery of the technique with anyone and everyone as long as it wasn’t a fertile period. I know that if teens are going to have sex the actual methods aren’t the biggest issue, but the times this topic has come up with my wife, I can’t help thinking about that particular friend.

I had a friend in college who acted similarly, prior to her conversion. Enough of her Catholic upbringing sunk in to know that contraception was wrong, but she then used knowledge of her cycle to engage in sexual sins without getting pregnant. She was young and her conscience was malformed and that’s what made sense to her at the time.

I think the answer, though, is not to hide information but to make sure that we are teaching morality in a way that is compelling and assists a personal encounter with Christ.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I had a friend in college who acted similarly, prior to her conversion. Enough of her Catholic upbringing sunk in to know that contraception was wrong, but she then used knowledge of her cycle to engage in sexual sins without getting pregnant. She was young and her conscience was malformed and that’s what made sense to her at the time.

I think the answer, though, is not to hide information but to make sure that we are teaching morality in a way that is compelling and assists a personal encounter with Christ.

Between you and Gordon I think we have proof of nfp with contraceptive mentality…

 

[Allegra]

Between you and Gordon I think we have proof of nfp with contraceptive mentality…

My sister uses NFP with a contraceptive mentality. She doesn’t believe that contraception is wrong, but she knows from experience that ABC doesn’t always work and results in miscarriage. My other sister has gotten pregnant four times on various forms of hormonal birth control. She’s had two live children, one known miscarriage, and a still born child. With her son, they had to leave her IUD in the whole pregnancy, because they couldn’t remove it. After my oldest sister’s horrific experience of losing two babies, my younger sister uses NFP and barrier methods as contraception. She says that if the method fails, at least she’ll end up with a live baby she can give to a good home and not a stillborn baby.

 

[LongingSoul]

My sister uses NFP with a contraceptive mentality. She doesn’t believe that contraception is wrong, but she knows from experience that ABC doesn’t always work and results in miscarriage. My other sister has gotten pregnant four times on various forms of hormonal birth control. She’s had two live children, one known miscarriage, and a still born child. With her son, they had to leave her IUD in the whole pregnancy, because they couldn’t remove it. After my oldest sister’s horrific experience of losing two babies, my younger sister uses NFP and barrier methods as contraception. She says that if the method fails, at least she’ll end up with a live baby she can give to a good home and not a stillborn baby.

Allegra, your sister wasn’t doing NFP because she was using barrier methods during fertile periods. She was doing fertility awareness with barrier backup and that is contraception. Unfortunately you have responded to a poster who persistently tries to destroy the whole body of work of the Church including Theology of the Body, that presents the nature of contraception as intrinsically evil and destructive to mankind. I feel very strongly that the blatant and repeated distortion of Church teaching by that poster should warrant banning from the site.

NFP involves the avoidance altogether of fertile times if the purpose is delaying pregnancy. That continence while being for one purpose is also a character building exercise, that encourages respect for spouses and respect for Creation.

I just wanted to correct your misconception before the thread was taken away from anti contraception and became anti NFP.

This article should also help clarify…

There is Nothing Contraceptive About Natural Family Planning

We must first understand what the word “contraceptive” means. “Any action which either before, at the moment of, or after marital intercourse, is specifically intended to prevent procreation, whether as an end or as a means” is contraceptive (Humanae Vitae, 14). Contraceptive means just that: against conception.

Now, to be very clear, there is nothing in any way contraceptive about natural family planning. Neither before, nor during, nor after sexual intercourse has a couple practicing NFP done nothing at all to prevent procreation or to render the act infertile. The sexual act may in fact be infertile (i.e. it may not be possible for the woman to conceive at that time), but the couple has not done anything to make the act infertile.

The Church has been very clear on this point, and I would recommend re-reading Humanae Vitae, 16, for further clarification. “Neither the Church nor her doctrine is inconsistent when she considers it lawful for married people to take advantage of the infertile period but condemns as always unlawful the use of means which directly prevent conception …]. In reality, these two cases are completely different.”

Natural family planning and contraception are utterly different.

crisismagazine.com/2011/nfp-the-myth-of-the-%E2%80%9Ccontraceptive-mentality%E2%80%9D

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

My sister uses NFP with a contraceptive mentality. She doesn’t believe that contraception is wrong, but she knows from experience that ABC doesn’t always work and results in miscarriage. My other sister has gotten pregnant four times on various forms of hormonal birth control. She’s had two live children, one known miscarriage, and a still born child. With her son, they had to leave her IUD in the whole pregnancy, because they couldn’t remove it. After my oldest sister’s horrific experience of losing two babies, my younger sister uses NFP and barrier methods as contraception. She says that if the method fails, at least she’ll end up with a live baby she can give to a good home and not a stillborn baby.

I’m not sure that’s the same exactly. my wife and I have used nfp with a contraceptive mentality. We have confessed this. I’m not saying nfp is “contraception” the way abc is, only that it can be used in a way that is not open to life. Nfp can be abuse like any abc can. The two previous posters of teens who used nfp as a form of birth control sinfully in extramarital sex are extreme examples and certainly dangerous in this day and age of life threatening stds.
There would have to be some serious warping for that to happen.

However nfp is on the rise in more “earthy” circles of non Catholics who are focused on “healthy” alternatives to hormonal birth control and even latex ones.
It is used as a “natural” or green form of birth control but with a secular anti life mentality.

 

[bitterhope]

I’m not sure that’s the same exactly. my wife and I have used nfp with a contraceptive mentality. We have confessed this. I’m not saying nfp is “contraception” the way abc is, only that it can be used in a way that is not open to life. Nfp can be abuse like any abc can. The two previous posters of teens who used nfp as a form of birth control sinfully in extramarital sex are extreme examples and certainly dangerous in this day and age of life threatening stds.
There would have to be some serious warping for that to happen.

However nfp is on the rise in more “earthy” circles of non Catholics who are focused on “healthy” alternatives to hormonal birth control and even latex ones.
It is used as a “natural” or green form of birth control but with a secular anti life mentality.

Yep. And many people have life threatening allergic reactions to latex so they can’t use condoms and the like. They can’t or won’t use hormonal ABC due to health concerns or other reasons. Instead they use various methods, usually STM, of NFP or monitors such as ladycomp. They use it simply to not get pregnant. And I’m sure if there are non Catholics doing this, then there are Catholics doing it as well. I’m guilty of it. I doubt I’m that unique.