Should Catholics be opposed to war?

[catholictiger]

see Catechism and Just War Theory,

if you really want to get into it go read pacem et teris

 

[catholictiger]

ofcourse! you cant call yourself pro life yet support illegal wars for oil at the same time. i do not intend to cast judgement, but people who join the US army today are committing sin. since they are basically mercinaries who fight wars of aggression.

I strongly disagree, being a part of the military is a very good thing for people to be in, and the military does more then just go to foreign countries and kill a bunch of people. They do humanitarian work, they work to bring peace to countries, and soldiers shouldn’t be be held responsible in the same way the Government of the united states should be held responsible for going to war unjustly. Military men/women, have a duty to follow the commands of their commanders, and if they are put into an unjust war they still have the right to defend their life against aggressors.

 

[clem456]

sarcastic and ignorant of the facts at the same time. wow. crack open your history and look it up yourself. after world war 1, parts of Germany were given to poland. Hitler RECLAIMED these already german areas. and FYI the polish werent angels, they were massacring german civillians who lived there. thats actually what prompted Hitler to invade.

and you still havent answered my previous question, why didnt the west declare war on the USSR after it invaded poland too? also its extremely hypocritical of the west to be against the invasion of poland when britain, france, and america had numerous colonies in africa, asia, and south america. the USSR, america, britian, and france were bigger imperialists than Hitler!

Good Lord. You remake history to your own liking. Poland has been overrun from one direction then another for a millenium. The notion that Hitler was merely reclaiming German land is offensively naive.

Of course, if your view were true, there would have been no need for concentration camps. Or maybe those were justified in your view, in order to ensure Germany’s boundaries?

 

[catholictiger]

Good Lord. You remake history to your own liking. Poland has been overrun from one direction then another for a millenium. The notion that Hitler was merely reclaiming German land is offensively naive.

Of course, if your view were true, there would have been no need for concentration camps. Or maybe those were justified in your view, in order to ensure Germany’s boundaries?

Hitlers ultimate goal was to rule all of Europe, I don’t remember the name of the theory of it, but it was more then just reclaim lost land, one of Hitlers major goals was to take Russia, and actually his desire to take russia would eventually lead to his downfall, with that brutal Winter in Russia.

another suggestion for some person, check out triumph of the will it really gets into the “TRUE” motivations of the Nazis

 

[littlesoul]

Probably the best thing to do is to read through THIS section of the catechism.

The question you raise is a complex one and for many of us it does not have a clear cut answer.

My answer to your title question would have to be a resounding YES Catholics should be opposed to war. War, in and of itself violates the call to Love. Therefore we should oppose war (as a concept).

But there are other questions that are perhaps not so clear cut and I am sure have been touched on in this thread (I have not read all of the replies.
For instance one might ask the question Should Catholics participate in a war?..That answer would have to be “it depends”. It depends on what kind of war.
Should Catholics participate in an aggressive war? - I think no.
Should Catholics participate in a defensive war? - I think yes and it should be waged in a manner that achieves the quickest end and the most just peace possible.

I’m sure you can readily see how each of these basic variations in the question can lead to even more variations and nuances.
As I said, it is a complicated issue.

Peace
James

Yah, I tend to ask the tough questions. Not on purpose, I just realize they are tough after I ask them lol. And I seem to have opened a can of worms here. ooops. Anyway, I agree with your response here.

I also just read in the Youcat:

“Someone who is actually attacking the lives of others may and must be stopped, if necessary by killing the attacker himself. Legitimate defense against aggression is not only a right; for someone who bears the responsibility for the lives of others it can even become a duty. Nevertheless, legitimate defense must not employ wrong, inappropriately harsh methods.”

 

[St_Francis]

BDS.

Oh, yes, we always spend billions of our own dollars rebuolding nations and put contracts internationally because we are only after oil.

 

[R1ch4rd]

i will walk up to a veteran and tell him to his face that he has a very good chance of being in mortal sin. volunteering to fight in a war of aggression for money is basically being a hitman. so far in the 20th century america has not fought a single war which meets the catholic requirments for “just war”.
and if there are any catholics who support ANY of the wars in this century, i suggest they take a deep study of the catechism.
btw, im an American.

And if you were drafted???

btw, we should be grateful to all the Protestants who sinned so we’re able to practice our faith

 

[R1ch4rd]

btw, im an American.

No, I don’t think you are

 

[epan]

Why not the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, or either WWs? I can see why Korea, Vietnam, and now Iraq and Pakistan might not be, but why not the others?

I have seen one of Saddam’s mass graves, with people sifting through remains looking for some sign of a missing spouse, parent, or child. I have seen civilian body parts strewn on a street soaked in blood. There is a desire to stop the killers and bring peace to such a population.

I don’t know that any of us actually know the reasons that we went into Iraq. It all seems pretty muddled up now. But I can tell you that those who were there had a mission to end things honorably, and to bring peace and order to a country which suffered under a tyrant, and which was then torn apart by war and terrorism.

Don’t ask me about just vs unjust. I don’t know. But I do know that.

 

[epan]

i will walk up to a veteran and tell him to his face that he has a very good chance of being in mortal sin. volunteering to fight in a war of aggression for money is basically being a hitman. so far in the 20th century america has not fought a single war which meets the catholic requirments for “just war”.
and if there are any catholics who support ANY of the wars in this century, i suggest they take a deep study of the catechism.
btw, im an American.

I would like to introduce you to a man who is badly disfigured and whose two legs I amputated. He believes that he has done the right thing. I would like to see you actually look into his eyes and judge him. Give him your sage advice.

 

[edwest2]

WW1, america entered into the war without provocation.
ww2, america provoked the japanese attack on pearl harbour then entered into the war
korean, vietnamese wars, america invaded those countries under the pretenses of “containing communism”. but frankly no one asked us to do that. once again that was not a just war by catholic standards.
serbia, america dropped bombs on serbian civillians. they got involved in a conflict that was NONE of their business. a catholic CANNOT stand by these acts. sorry but “God and country” doesnt always go together. God warned us against idolatry. when country is wrong, we must stand by God.

You’ll have to supply facts to support any of your assertions. You’ll have to supply some names of those who compelled or controlled the United States to go to war in all cases. Otherwise, though some conspiracies are true, you provide no support for your statements.

We can’t change history. So what should Catholics do today?

Peace,
Ed

 

[sedonaman]

I have seen one of Saddam’s mass graves, with people sifting through remains looking for some sign of a missing spouse, parent, or child. I have seen civilian body parts strewn on a street soaked in blood. There is a desire to stop the killers and bring peace to such a population.

I don’t know that any of us actually know the reasons that we went into Iraq. It all seems pretty muddled up now. But I can tell you that those who were there had a mission to end things honorably, and to bring peace and order to a country which suffered under a tyrant, and which was then torn apart by war and terrorism.

Don’t ask me about just vs unjust. I don’t know. But I do know that.

I understand the initial reasons for going to war with Saddam and supported them at the time, mainly because Bush said it would not be another Vietnam. Then he proceeded to conduct the war as though it was. A stray bullet that chipped the paint off some holy dome of the rock became a major scandal. [Remember the missing artifacts from the museum?] What I am saying is that at first it was a just war, but later it became unjust because the chances of success were reduced to zero by the use of unrealistic rules of engagement that not even the Laws of Armed Conflict support.

 

[epan]

I understand the initial reasons for going to war with Saddam and supported them at the time, mainly because Bush said it would not be another Vietnam. Then he proceeded to conduct the war as though it was. A stray bullet that chipped the paint off some holy dome of the rock became a major scandal. [Remember the missing artifacts from the museum?] What I am saying is that at first it was a just war, but later it became unjust because the chances of success were reduced to zero by the use of unrealistic rules of engagement that not even the Laws of Armed Conflict support.

I know what you are saying. But would you say that the poor planning by Mr. Bush and Mr. Rumsfeld made the war unjust? Their incompetency did not change the reasons for going to war.

I would make another point though. I believed the President, going into it. I felt that I was doing my part to depose a despot and rid the world of some evil. As for the WMD, I don’t know what the answers are there. I do know that the first people to surrender to my unit were an artillery unit which was fleeing the Republican Guard. They were deserters who wanted our protection. When we searched them and debriefed them, we discovered that every man had an atropine injector. They believed that they had neurotoxic artillery shells. So, Saddam even fooled his own military.

So, what is the moral obligation, once we were committed, once the country was in turmoil? My opinion was that we had a moral obligation to put things right, as best we could, which I why I returned to fight in a subsequent deployment. I felt the moral imperative to do my best to leave the place better off than we found it, and certainly not roiling in violence and anarchy.

 

[OneSheep]

I know what you are saying. But would you say that the poor planning by Mr. Bush and Mr. Rumsfeld made the war unjust? Their incompetency did not change the reasons for going to war.

I would make another point though. I believed the President, going into it. I felt that I was doing my part to depose a despot and rid the world of some evil. As for the WMD, I don’t know what the answers are there. I do know that the first people to surrender to my unit were an artillery unit which was fleeing the Republican Guard. They were deserters who wanted our protection. When we searched them and debriefed them, we discovered that every man had an atropine injector. They believed that they had neurotoxic artillery shells. So, Saddam even fooled his own military.

So, what is the moral obligation, once we were committed, once the country was in turmoil? My opinion was that we had a moral obligation to put things right, as best we could, which I why I returned to fight in a subsequent deployment. I felt the moral imperative to do my best to leave the place better off than we found it, and certainly not roiling in violence and anarchy.

Thanks for your clarification on some things. It looks to me that you are at peace with what you did over there, I understand. I would do the same in your shoes. I applaud your efforts at creating peace; don’t forget that, even if I may seem contrary later in this post.

Around here, even some of the most conservative veterans were opposed to our attack on Iraq. Millions took to the streets, and the press downplayed it. The press also launched its own attack on the Catholic Church. The pope opposed the Iraq invasion, and the press chose that year, 2003, to be the time to blow up and keep in the headlines continuously, the molestation scandals. These headlines appeared daily in the run-up to the invasion. Laws were passed allowing many people to sue the Church, eliminating previous statutes of limitation. This was not a coincidence.

We could have definitely done a lot more to avoid attacking Iraq, that is why it was a violation of the Just War Theory.

You bring up commitments. For the past year and a half, our congress has been passing laws restricting US dialog/diplomacy with Iran, saying this policy and that policy (ones that don’t involve military solutions) toward Iran are not allowed. *These laws are painting us into a corner, making military action the only LEGAL way to deal with Iran. These laws in themselves are a violation of Just War Theory! *

My question is, why are our Bishops not doing more about this? They spend a lot of time pushing the abortion issue, which is all necessary, but what about these laws that congress is passing leading us into war?

 

[sedonaman]

I know what you are saying. But would you say that the poor planning by Mr. Bush and Mr. Rumsfeld made the war unjust? Their incompetency did not change the reasons for going to war.

I would make another point though. I believed the President, going into it. I felt that I was doing my part to depose a despot and rid the world of some evil. As for the WMD, I don’t know what the answers are there. I do know that the first people to surrender to my unit were an artillery unit which was fleeing the Republican Guard. They were deserters who wanted our protection. When we searched them and debriefed them, we discovered that every man had an atropine injector. They believed that they had neurotoxic artillery shells. So, Saddam even fooled his own military.

So, what is the moral obligation, once we were committed, once the country was in turmoil? My opinion was that we had a moral obligation to put things right, as best we could, which I why I returned to fight in a subsequent deployment. I felt the moral imperative to do my best to leave the place better off than we found it, and certainly not roiling in violence and anarchy.

I thank you for your patriotic service. As an older veteran, I advised my two sons not to go into the military, not because they might get killed, but that they might get killed for nothing. Ever since Truman’s Korean War and “Light Bulb” Johnson’s Vietnam, the politician has given away at the negotiating table what the soldier died for on the battlefield. And this doesn’t even address the indignity he must suffer from his own countrymen.

Once the decision to go to war is made, every effort to bring a decisive victory must be made, otherwise you get bogged down in a war of attrition of lives, something we can’t match the enemy in. You have probably heard the old story about the Chinese males being marched in a column four abreast into the sea and how it would never end. I think Johnson and his whiz kids forgot about that, and the enemy just wore us down.

Someone mentioned the media. The government has allowed it to play a deciding factor in bringing about America’s defeat.

This is why I agree that those types of wars become immoral.

 

[garn9173]

I thank you for your patriotic service. As an older veteran, I advised my two sons not to go into the military, not because they might get killed, but that they might get killed for nothing. Ever since Truman’s Korean War and “Light Bulb” Johnson’s Vietnam, the politician has given away at the negotiating table what the soldier died for on the battlefield. And this doesn’t even address the indignity he must suffer from his own countrymen.

Once the decision to go to war is made, every effort to bring a decisive victory must be made, otherwise you get bogged down in a war of attrition of lives, something we can’t match the enemy in. You have probably heard the old story about the Chinese males being marched in a column four abreast into the sea and how it would never end. I think Johnson and his whiz kids forgot about that, and the enemy just wore us down.

Someone mentioned the media. The government has allowed it to play a deciding factor in bringing about America’s defeat.

This is why I agree that those types of wars become immoral.

Thank you both for your service to this Country.

 

[sedonaman]

…
We could have definitely done a lot more to avoid attacking Iraq, …

Like ?

 

[edwest2]

sarcastic and ignorant of the facts at the same time. wow. crack open your history and look it up yourself. after world war 1, parts of Germany were given to poland. Hitler RECLAIMED these already german areas. and FYI the polish werent angels, they were massacring german civillians who lived there. thats actually what prompted Hitler to invade.

and you still havent answered my previous question, why didnt the west declare war on the USSR after it invaded poland too? also its extremely hypocritical of the west to be against the invasion of poland when britain, france, and america had numerous colonies in africa, asia, and south america. the USSR, america, britian, and france were bigger imperialists than Hitler!

Your post is being reported. You bring no facts to the table. It appears you are angry and all you have are mostly fantasy accusations. As a student of 20th Century military history, and a student of Polish history, I can say that without question, you don’t know what you’re talking about.

Peace,
Ed

 

[epan]

I thank you for your patriotic service. As an older veteran, I advised my two sons not to go into the military, not because they might get killed, but that they might get killed for nothing. Ever since Truman’s Korean War and “Light Bulb” Johnson’s Vietnam, the politician has given away at the negotiating table what the soldier died for on the battlefield. And this doesn’t even address the indignity he must suffer from his own countrymen.

Once the decision to go to war is made, every effort to bring a decisive victory must be made, otherwise you get bogged down in a war of attrition of lives, something we can’t match the enemy in. You have probably heard the old story about the Chinese males being marched in a column four abreast into the sea and how it would never end. I think Johnson and his whiz kids forgot about that, and the enemy just wore us down.

Someone mentioned the media. The government has allowed it to play a deciding factor in bringing about America’s defeat.

This is why I agree that those types of wars become immoral.

My parents were not too pleased about my decision to leave school and sign up. But once I made it, they supported me. My grandparents, who both served in WW2 and Korea were supportive, and understood my desire to do my duty for my country. My grandmother was a war nurse in WW2, and my grandfather was in WW2 and Korea. My dad avoided Viet Nam, which is understandable. The draft was not fair at all. Anyone with enough money could avoid it.

I started a thread on here previously, which got some interesting replies, and is in line with this thread. The question was, can a Catholic (or other Christian), sign up for military service with a clear conscience, knowing the he or she may be called upon to fight in an “unjust” war.

The responses were interesting.

I would also ask the question on taxation. Where does one draw the line in supporting a war which is unjust? Voting for a different politician? Withholding tax payments which would support the war? Refusing to squeeze a trigger? What is one’s obligation, if any, to support the service members who are engaged in such a war?

I know where I stand on these issues. I have confronted them personally, and reconciled my conscience. For me, personally, the choice was to go into a profession where no matter where I do my job, or for whom, it is for the good. I choose to work for the US Military, working mostly with wounded men. I will be shipping back out shortly to an FOB in Afghanistan to provide medical care for local population, routine care for service members while deployed, and trauma care, if the need arises. I have no worries about whether our military effort is just or unjust. I know that I am providing medical care for those in need.

Am I in denial about my role in supporting a war, which may be unjust?

 

[sedonaman]

My parents were not too pleased about my decision to leave school and sign up. But once I made it, they supported me. My grandparents, who both served in WW2 and Korea were supportive, and understood my desire to do my duty for my country. My grandmother was a war nurse in WW2, and my grandfather was in WW2 and Korea. My dad avoided Viet Nam, which is understandable. The draft was not fair at all. Anyone with enough money could avoid it.

I started a thread on here previously, which got some interesting replies, and is in line with this thread. The question was, can a Catholic (or other Christian), sign up for military service with a clear conscience, knowing the he or she may be called upon to fight in an “unjust” war.

The responses were interesting.

I would also ask the question on taxation. Where does one draw the line in supporting a war which is unjust? Voting for a different politician? Withholding tax payments which would support the war? Refusing to squeeze a trigger? What is one’s obligation, if any, to support the service members who are engaged in such a war?

I know where I stand on these issues. I have confronted them personally, and reconciled my conscience. For me, personally, the choice was to go into a profession where no matter where I do my job, or for whom, it is for the good. I choose to work for the US Military, working mostly with wounded men. I will be shipping back out shortly to an FOB in Afghanistan to provide medical care for local population, routine care for service members while deployed, and trauma care, if the need arises. I have no worries about whether our military effort is just or unjust. I know that I am providing medical care for those in need.

Am I in denial about my role in supporting a war, which may be unjust?

CCC 2309: … The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good.

In your case, CCC 2310 might apply: Those who are sworn to serve their country in the armed forces are servants of the security and freedom of nations. If they carry out their duty honorably, they truly contribute to the common good of the nation and the maintenance of peace.