Should Catholic's engage in internal Reform?

[BlankFace]

In my opinion Martin Luther had many reasonable arguements to challenge the Catholic Church. Unfortunetly they RCC was so powerful at the time, and perhaps too steeped in worldly politics, that the best solution they thought of was to excommunicate him. Then, after he starts the largest rebellion against the catholic church in history, all of sudden they start the Counter-Reformation—maybe they should of listened to him when he still wanted to make changes within Church, rather than rebel against it.

I’m sort of going inbetween Christian faiths right now, though I want to be Catholic. My question is, do you think priests/clergy/bros/sis’s/laity should actively question and attempt to reform the church internally-before possibly breaking away from it?

I think this will not only give more confidence to current Catholics, but also bring many former and non-Catholics to Rome.

Obviously this can lead to many problems, though I think if done in the right way can really strengthen the Church.

Please let me know your thoughts before I list some possible grievences that I currently have with the Church.

(Edited)

 

[BlankFace]

In my opinion Martin Luther had many reasonable arguements to challenge the Catholic Church. Unfortunetly they were so powerful at the time, and perhaps too steeped in worldly politics, that the best solution they thought of was to excommunicate him. Then, after he starts the largest rebellion against the catholic church in history, all of sudden they start the Counter-Reformation—maybe they should of listened to him when he still wanted to make changes within Church, rather than rebel against it.

I’m sort of going inbetween Christian faiths right now, though I want to be Catholic. My question is, do you think priests/clergy/bros/sis’s/laity should actively question and attempt to reform the church internally-before possibly breaking away from it?

I think this will not only give more confidence to current Catholics, but also bring many former and non-Catholics to Rome.

Obviously this can lead to many problems, though I think if done in the right way can really strengthen the Church.

Please let me know your thoughts before I list some possible grievences that I currently have with the Church.

BTW this is more of question for existing Catholics, but what would some of my Protestant friends think if the RCC initiated such a campaign?

 

[Penitant]

In my opinion Martin Luther had many reasonable arguements to challenge the Catholic Church. Unfortunetly they were so powerful at the time, and perhaps too steeped in worldly politics, that the best solution they thought of was to excommunicate him. Then, after he starts the largest rebellion against the catholic church in history, all of sudden they start the Counter-Reformation—maybe they should of listened to him when he still wanted to make changes within Church, rather than rebel against it.

First off, Luther’s focus really wasn’t on correcting abuses that were occurring in the Church. Luther wanted the Church to change it’s teaching and accept Sola Fide. Everything else that Luther did was essentially contingent upon that. He even tried to get the Church to call an Ecumenical Council to consider Sola Fide, while at the same time saying that he would reject the council if it disagreed with him.

I’m sort of going inbetween Christian faiths right now, though I want to be Catholic. My question is, do you think priests/clergy/bros/sis’s/laity should actively question and attempt to reform the church internally-before possibly breaking away from it?

I think this will not only give more confidence to current Catholics, but also bring many former and non-Catholics to Rome.

Obviously this can lead to many problems, though I think if done in the right way can really strengthen the Church.

Please let me know your thoughts before I list some possible grievences that I currently have with the Church.

BTW this is more of question for existing Catholics, but what would some of my Protestant friends think if the RCC initiated such a campaign?

Second, from Canon Law:
Can. 212 §1. Conscious of their own responsibility, the Christian faithful are bound to follow with Christian obedience those things which the sacred pastors, inasmuch as they represent Christ, declare as teachers of the faith or establish as rulers of the Church.

§2. The Christian faithful are free to make known to the pastors of the Church their needs, especially spiritual ones, and their desires.

§3. According to the knowledge, competence, and prestige which they possess,** they have the right and even at times the duty** to manifest to the sacred pastors their opinion on matters which pertain to the good of the Church and to make their opinion known to the rest of the Christian faithful, without prejudice to the integrity of faith and morals, with reverence toward their pastors, and attentive to common advantage and the dignity of persons.

Pax Tecum

 

[BlankFace]

From other protestents I’ve herd that Luther had no choice to leave the church because if they were refusing to accept the abuse of indulgences, than what other issues may they refuse to address?

Also thank you for bring up those sections of Canon Law. But does that mean I can…

-Petition and rubuke the Church for allowing clearly occultic rituals to take place in latin american, carribean, and other regions of the world among alleged “Catholics” perhaps just so they can preserve their native cultures while also claiming loyalty to the church?

-Question the excessive opulence and wealth that the Catholic Church has always held when Christ calls for us to care for the poor and abandon out worldly possesions? Now I’m not saying tear down the celing of the sistine chapel and sell it to private collectors, but the Vatican’s collection of art and the general money spent on art in many churches is obscene.

-Demand for more transparency with the Church, especially as it pertains to Sex-Abuse cases, the vatican vaults, the vatican bank, and other evils that may or may not have occured in the upper eschelons of the Vatican- past and presant.

These are just a few things that drive many possible converts away from the church, as well as worry the current Catholic followers- including myself

 

[Rolltide]

-Question the excessive opulence and wealth that the Catholic Church has always held when Christ calls for us to care for the poor and abandon out worldly possesions? Now I’m not saying tear down the celing of the sistine chapel and sell it to private collectors, but the Vatican’s collection of art and the general money spent on art in many churches is obscene.

Should the Smithsonian Institution or the Louvre Museum be sold due to their hording of extravagant wealth? Shouldn’t those governments spend that money on the poor?

 

[BlankFace]

Should the Smithsonian Institution or the Louvre Museum be sold due to their hording of extravagant wealth? Shouldn’t those governments spend that money on the poor?

Well, yea I think they should. Like i said, not their main treasures, but all the stuff that’s in the basement of the Louvre and not on dispaly at the Smithsonian is terribly valueable, and I think should be sold to benefit the more benelevent causes rather than maintain the presitige of said institutions.

Actually, perhaps even their most expensive- perhaps priceless- pieces should be sold to support a more Christly(word?) cause.

 

[Thomas_Casey]

Duplicate thread.

Closed pending moderator review

 

[Rolltide]

Well, it depends on the type of reform you’re talking about. Some things are disciplines, meaning that they’re longstanding practices of the church, but they CAN be changed. The married priesthood comes to mind, for example. Until the eleventh century, married Catholic priests were somewhat common. But, due to nepotism and the high lifestyle of the families of some clergy members, mandatory celibacy was imposed on the West. However, even today, exceptions can be made by petitioning Rome. Something like that COULD be changed. However, if it was something that rose to the level of doctrine or dogma, then it could NOT be changed, or the faith would completely unravel. For example, you could not renounce the Real Presence in Communion, or suddenly say that abortion was ok. It’s important to note that after Martin Luther, the church did a very thorough cleaning of house at the Council of Trent. While it did not change ANY doctrines or dogmas, it did reform many corrupt practices.

 

[Church_Militant]

In my opinion Martin Luther had many reasonable arguements to challenge the Catholic Church. Unfortunetly they RCC was so powerful at the time, and perhaps too steeped in worldly politics, that the best solution they thought of was to excommunicate him.

I think you need to check your historical facts from more objective source.

Then, after he starts the largest rebellion against the catholic church in history, all of sudden they start the Counter-Reformation—maybe they should of listened to him when he still wanted to make changes within Church, rather than rebel against it.

Gee…what do you think the Council of Trent was? A covered dish supper? Luther was eaten up with mental illness and could no longer hack his celibacy. not to mention his essential doctrinal errors which have cascaded down to many more and varied today. Read Catholic Controversy by St. Francis de Sales.

Moreover, you don’t seem to know that[Reform (http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2006/0604tbt.asp) Came before the Reformation (This Rock: April 2006)

I’m sort of going inbetween Christian faiths right now, though I want to be Catholic. My question is, do you think priests/clergy/bros/sis’s/laity should actively question and attempt to reform the church internally-before possibly breaking away from it?

See the article above…

I think this will not only give more confidence to current Catholics, but also bring many former and non-Catholics to Rome.

Truth, guided by the Holy Spirit brings us home. I’m one of them. My Testimony

From other protestents I’ve herd that Luther had no choice to leave the church because if they were refusing to accept the abuse of indulgences, than what other issues may they refuse to address?

News flash. Get the facts. It was dealt with. [Myths about Indulgences (http://www.catholic.com/library/Myths_About_Indulgences.asp)

-Petition and rubuke the Church for allowing clearly occultic rituals to take place in latin american, carribean, and other regions of the world among alleged “Catholics” perhaps just so they can preserve their native cultures while also claiming loyalty to the church?

By all means prove this. I’ve heard this a number of times and have yet to see the least documentation showing it to be more than some errant individuals and nowhere near as endemic as anti-Catholics have tried to allege.

-Question the excessive opulence and wealth that the Catholic Church has always held when Christ calls for us to care for the poor and abandon out worldly possesions? Now I’m not saying tear down the celing of the sistine chapel and sell it to private collectors, but the Vatican’s collection of art and the general money spent on art in many churches is obscene.

Really? Seen any of the mega churches out there?

• Shouldn’t the Church sell off its artifacts?
• ** Is luxurious living a sin?**
• ** When is trying to make money working for mammon?**
• ** Is it a sin to be rich?**
• ** Live Simply? Live Shrewdly** by Donna Doornik
• ** The Mass, the Temple, and Loraine Boettner** by T.L. Frazier

-Demand for more transparency with the Church, especially as it pertains to Sex-Abuse cases,

You need to have kept up because this is ready well underway. Besides most of these cases are decades old. Maybe you should speak to this issue among n-Cs, where the problem is as bad or worse. Certainly a bad situation, but the fact is that the Catholic Church is doing more to deal with it than most other religions.
Report: Protestant Church Insurers Handle 260 Sex Abuse Cases a Year
[Sexual Abuse (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,286153,00.html) of Minors in Protestant Churches
[Sex abuse (http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0405/p01s01-ussc.html) spans spectrum of churches
StopBaptistPredators.org

(Cont’d)

 

[Church_Militant]

the vatican vaults, the vatican bank, and other evils that may or may not have occured in the upper eschelons of the Vatican- past and presant.

How is the Vatican’s vaults an issue? And its bank? It’s an independent country. I don’t see even the U.S. being that transparent. How are those 2 items “evils”? I think you’re dead wrong on this too.

These are just a few things that drive many possible converts away from the church, as well as worry the current Catholic followers- including myself

I don’t see that at all. Most of what you’ve stated is more propaganda than anything else and Catholics have seen it many times here at CAF and elsewhere. There’s lot of information in these links that you’d do well to carefully check out.

The Catholic Church is the original, New Testament, “full gospel” Christian faith and has been for 2,000 years. The Reformation promulgated errors that have only snowballed and cascaded down in the last 500 years.
Who REALLY Preaches “A Different Gospel”?

 

[Rolltide]

Well, yea I think they should. Like i said, not their main treasures, but all the stuff that’s in the basement of the Louvre and not on dispaly at the Smithsonian is terribly valueable, and I think should be sold to benefit the more benelevent causes rather than maintain the presitige of said institutions.

Actually, perhaps even their most expensive- perhaps priceless- pieces should be sold to support a more Christly(word?) cause.

Matthew 26:6-13
Now when Jesus was in Bethany in the house of Simon the leper,
a woman came up to him with an alabaster jar of costly perfumed oil, and poured it on his head while he was reclining at table.
When the disciples saw this, they were indignant and said, “Why this waste?
It could have been sold for much, and the money given to the poor.”
Since Jesus knew this, he said to them, “Why do you make trouble for the woman? She has done a good thing for me.
The poor you will always have with you; but you will not always have me.
In pouring this perfumed oil upon my body, she did it to prepare me for burial.
Amen, I say to you, wherever this gospel is proclaimed in the whole world, what she has done will be spoken of, in memory of her.”

How do you interpret this scripture? I have a long case for the so-called “wealth” of the Vatican, but I’ll start with the words of Jesus first.

 

[Rolltide]

-Petition and rubuke the Church for allowing clearly occultic rituals to take place in latin american, carribean, and other regions of the world among alleged “Catholics” perhaps just so they can preserve their native cultures while also claiming loyalty to the church?

Which traditions in particular are you concerned about? Christmas trees? Advent wreaths? Wedding bands? The celebration of Christmas on December 25? The Crucifix? All of these were pagan symbols adopted into Christianity. Or, are you referring to syncretist religions like Voudon (Voodoo), Santeria, and Candombole, which have become completely separate religions and are condemned by the church?

 

[BlankFace]

ChurchMilitant, thank you for your reply and references. I’ll need to study them more before I can make a response to them all.

As for the occultic Rituals, it’s OBVIOUS. When I went to Mexico a few years back they have all these shops that are decorated with various crucifix’s and images of Mary yet their whole purpose is to sell healing componants for rituals that were created by their former native pagan culture.

Also just the other day I was watching CurrentTV (great Channel BTW) and they had this show about truck drivers in the Andes Mountains that must drive along some of the most perilous roads in the world to support themselves. Before he set off, the driver said a prayer to the lord and then stopped to get another blessing of protection from the local Shaman who did some weird ritual that involved burning coca leaves and “baptising” the wheels of the truck in beer to appease the Gods/Spirits.

Things like this are abit disturbing.

 

[Seatuck]

ChurchMilitant, thank you for your reply and references. I’ll need to study them more before I can make a response to them all.

As for the occultic Rituals, it’s OBVIOUS. When I went to Mexico a few years back they have all these shops that are decorated with various crucifix’s and images of Mary yet their whole purpose is to sell healing componants for rituals that were created by their former native pagan culture.

Also just the other day I was watching CurrentTV (great Channel BTW) and they had this show about truck drivers in the Andes Mountains that must drive along some of the most perilous roads in the world to support themselves. Before he set off, the driver said a prayer to the lord and then stopped to get another blessing of protection from the local Shaman who did some weird ritual that involved burning coca leaves and “baptising” the wheels of the truck in beer to appease the Gods/Spirits.

Things like this are abit disturbing.

Those things are not part of the practice of the Catholic Church. You can’t credit what some individuals do as practices of the church. You won’t find any documentation that the church teaches those practices.

 

[BlankFace]

^That may be true, but they are still WIDESPREAD among many Catholic cultures and it doesn’t seem to be going away, as much as the CC says it’s against it.

Also what about things such as the blessed green scapular, an object that you can give someone that will help them convert to the Catholic Church. I know people may be able to explain this away, but it still seems like straight talisman magic to me. Why wouldn’t prayer be enough?

To anyone debating me please don’t stop, as annoying I may be with some of these issues—I want to find the truth and be able to commit myself fully and confidently to living it.

 

[curlycool89]

^That may be true, but they are still WIDESPREAD among many Catholic cultures and it doesn’t seem to be going away, as much as the CC says it’s against it.

And what exactly do you think the Church should do about it? The Church doesn’t control Southern American governments. People have free will, and that includes the ability to accept or reject God (accepting God is the right answer of course, but God doesn’t force Himself on people).

 

[BlankFace]

And what exactly do you think the Church should do about it? The Church doesn’t control Southern American governments. People have free will, and that includes the ability to accept or reject God (accepting God is the right answer of course, but God doesn’t force Himself on people).

Yes but it does or should control its priests in these regions, and I’m sure the priests may have turned a blind eye to such issues, or at worse accepted them because most these people are catholics that go to mass regularly, yet still engage in these occultic practices.

EDIT: Also this is just one issue and I don’t want it to consume the thread, my original point is I think Catholics should be able to challenge church doctrin (though perhaps not dogma) and even the papacy itself. Like I said before this can lead to many problems, but even a mild review of the Catholic church reveals a list of priests, bishops, and even popes that needed a swift kick in the butt and who clearly were no living christian lives.

 

[Church_Militant]

ChurchMilitant, thank you for your reply and references. I’ll need to study them more before I can make a response to them all.

Maybe it will help.

As for the occultic Rituals, it’s OBVIOUS. When I went to Mexico a few years back they have all these shops that are decorated with various crucifix’s and images of Mary yet their whole purpose is to sell healing componants for rituals that were created by their former native pagan culture.

Also just the other day I was watching CurrentTV (great Channel BTW) and they had this show about truck drivers in the Andes Mountains that must drive along some of the most perilous roads in the world to support themselves. Before he set off, the driver said a prayer to the lord and then stopped to get another blessing of protection from the local Shaman who did some weird ritual that involved burning coca leaves and “baptising” the wheels of the truck in beer to appease the Gods/Spirits.

Things like this are abit disturbing.

Well duh…but since the Church teaches the truth, what would you have us do? Pop an inquisition on such things?

As for widespread…you make that claim without sufficient documentation. For instance, did you take the time to survey all the shopkeepers to see if they are even Catholic? I mean, Walmart carries a few crucifixes in their jewelry counter and then a lot of other stuff that is far from Catholic. By your logic, only Catholics should have crucifixes and yet many stores sell items for different religions, so why wouldn’t the shops in Mexico do something similar? You have made errant assumptions. In fact…you assume that the trucker you saw on TV was a Catholic. More likely that is not the case, so why blame the Catholic Church? That’s nothing but anti-Catholic bias.

 

[CMatt25]

In my opinion Martin Luther had many reasonable arguements to challenge the Catholic Church. Unfortunetly they RCC was so powerful at the time, and perhaps too steeped in worldly politics, that the best solution they thought of was to excommunicate him. Then, after he starts the largest rebellion against the catholic church in history, all of sudden they start the Counter-Reformation—maybe they should of listened to him when he still wanted to make changes within Church, rather than rebel against it.

I’m sort of going inbetween Christian faiths right now, though I want to be Catholic. My question is, do you think priests/clergy/bros/sis’s/laity should actively question and attempt to reform the church internally-before possibly breaking away from it?

I think this will not only give more confidence to current Catholics, but also bring many former and non-Catholics to Rome.

Obviously this can lead to many problems, though I think if done in the right way can really strengthen the Church.

Please let me know your thoughts before I list some possible grievences that I currently have with the Church.

(Edited)

To answer your question, I’d think Christ could reform His Church however necessary so the gates do not end up prevailing. He’s the founder afterall.

 

[gtrenewed]

Well duh…but since the Church teaches the truth, what would you have us do? Pop an inquisition on such things?

As for widespread…you make that claim without sufficient documentation. For instance, did you take the time to survey all the shopkeepers to see if they are even Catholic? I mean, Walmart carries a few crucifixes in their jewelry counter and then a lot of other stuff that is far from Catholic. By your logic, only Catholics should have crucifixes and yet many stores sell items for different religions, so why wouldn’t the shops in Mexico do something similar? You have made errant assumptions. In fact…you assume that the trucker you saw on TV was a Catholic. More likely that is not the case, so why blame the Catholic Church? That’s nothing but anti-Catholic bias.

Well excuse us oh great and mighty one who can make sweeping comments without impunity

Not all who question are doing so with anti-catholic bias. This poster is telling you a problem to coming to faith and you bully the poster.

What happens at the local parish is the catholic church to the local parishioner. You speak of grand truths from Rome rightly so but it is what happens locally that defines the church to both inside or outside. Not all doctrine is taught locally or other abuses are hidden because of ignorance, laziness and fear. One I have knowledge of is a practice that in order to sell a house one can bury a statue of St. Joseph upside in your backyard. They even sell kits for it in catholic publications. This happens in North America.

One problem encountered here is the denial or over-looking of abuses today and during the medieval church. You have over-demonized Martin Luther because you choose to believe those sources but other just as credible sources relay a different account.

When abuses are brought up a common reply is “what would you have us do?” How about a council to deal with the Latin American abuses who are evident to everyone who has been there and reported what they have found for years.

Councils dealt with heresy which is what these spiritism abuses are. Why not make certain local priests have distanced themselves and are preaching against these abuses?

To me your knowledge has made you arrogant at times. There are many red herrings on the way to faith but your demeanor does not get rid of them even if the truth is there. Faith, Hope, and Charity. The greatest of these is charity.