Should Catholics Praise Martin Luther???

[Monte_RCMS]

You … each of us … has to build a reference shelf.

The internet is great … but you need to think about this stuff.

At one of our parish adult education programs, one of the excellent books they gave out was:

“History Of The Catholic Church”

by

James Hitchcock

Ignatius Press

It’s outstanding … easy to read … but comprehensive.

The book is available from the Catholic Answers bookstore … and it is offered with a discount:

shop.catholic.com/history-of-the-catholic-church-from-the-apostolic-age-to-the-third-millennium.html

 

[Peter_J]

Protestantism would have occurred no matter what. The Medieval culture, with the Church and the kingdoms sharing the top, was coming to an end. Had there been no Luther, there would still have been an English Reformation, and no doubt many others.

And people are very quick to forget about Jan Hus in the 15th century.

 

[Picky_Picky]

And people are very quick to forget about Jan Hus in the 15th century.

And Wycliffe in the 14th.

 

[GKC]

You … each of us … has to build a reference shelf.

The internet is great … but you need to think about this stuff.

At one of our parish adult education programs, one of the excellent books they gave out was:

“History Of The Catholic Church”

by

James Hitchcock

Ignatius Press

It’s outstanding … easy to read … but comprehensive.

The book is available from the Catholic Answers bookstore … and it is offered with a discount:

shop.catholic.com/history-of-the-catholic-church-from-the-apostolic-age-to-the-third-millennium.html

Good advice, in general.

 

[2PT3]

You … each of us … has to build a reference shelf.

The internet is great … but you need to think about this stuff.

At one of our parish adult education programs, one of the excellent books they gave out was:

“History Of The Catholic Church”

by

James Hitchcock

Ignatius Press

It’s outstanding … easy to read … but comprehensive.

The book is available from the Catholic Answers bookstore … and it is offered with a discount:

shop.catholic.com/history-of-the-catholic-church-from-the-apostolic-age-to-the-third-millennium.html

Another excellent resource is The Story of the Church, published by TAN Books. It is an old Catholic school textbook but highly readable and provides a comprehensive survey of Church history up to the turn of the 20th Century.

 

[2PT3]

Catholics have no more cause for praising Martin Luther than Lutherans would have cause for praising Pope Leo X. We are indeed separated brethren and as tragic as it is, it is a reality. There are Lutherans( believe it or not) who hold Pope Leo X as being the man responsible for fracturing the Church when all Luther wanted was a Council and resolution to the issues he saw as troubling ( judging by the presence of the other reformers, apparently he wasn’t the only one who thought so, although he got the most press)
pbs.org/empires/martinluther/char_leo.html
history.com/topics/reformation
greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/john-hus.html
christian-history.org/martin-luther.html.

Yes, many of the Catholics of the era - including Pope Leo X - bear great responsibility because their corruption and sinfulness provided Luther with all the fodder he needed for his Revolt. They should not be praised either.

But a Catholic simply should not praise a man who wrote a work such as Luther’s Against the Roman Papacy, an Institution of the Devil.

 

[pnewton]

But a Catholic simply should not praise a man who wrote a work such as Luther’s Against the Roman Papacy, an Institution of the Devil.

If you do not think anything good should ever be said of the man, then that is your perogative, as it is for other Catholics to hold the opposite opinin. In light of Catholic teaching though, there is nothing inappropriate or wrong about acknowledging the good in others, just as there is nothing wrong in loving our enemies. So in light of the fact that a great saint of the Church has made such an overture, it is surely appropriate for Catholics to speak of the good that was in Martin Luther.

 

[Peter_J]

In light of Catholic teaching though, there is nothing inappropriate or wrong about acknowledging the good in others,

The Pope apparently agrees with you, but I don’t think he has an account on the Catholic Answers Forum.

 

[twf]

In general terms, the Reformation produced good results in that it led to needed reforms within the Catholic Church itself. That being said, Luther had some very disquieting ideas that neither modern Catholics or Lutherans should be OK with. I wouldn’t praise him, though I can acknowledge the good he did do. I also can’t praise many of the popes of that era.

 

[gcnuss]

From a Lutheran perspective, I would not expect Catholics to praise Luther. I am heartened that there is recognition that the Catholic Church did make some changes as a result of the Reformation, even if those changes cannot be attributed to Luther.

I certainly do not accept everything that Luther said or wrote as edifying the Christian faith. His condemnation of the Jews is not an example of the Christian love that we should extend to all of God’s people.

I don’t believe that his attacks on the papacy are relevant in our time. However, one only needs to read the descriptions of the popes of that time in the Catholic Encyclopedia to see that this was not a time of great leadership in the Church.

Just a few thoughts.

 

[Entwhistler]

From a Lutheran perspective, I would not expect Catholics to praise Luther. I am heartened that there is recognition that the Catholic Church did make some changes as a result of the Reformation, even if those changes cannot be attributed to Luther.

I certainly do not accept everything that Luther said or wrote as edifying the Christian faith. His condemnation of the Jews is not an example of the Christian love that we should extend to all of God’s people.

I don’t believe that his attacks on the papacy are relevant in our time. However, one only needs to read the descriptions of the popes of that time in the Catholic Encyclopedia to see that this was not a time of great leadership in the Church.

Just a few thoughts.

Yes, the Reformation was not our greatest moment, and many of the Popes during that time were lackluster. I’m sure that if many on both sides of the aisle would be able to do it over again, there would be many changes in the way it was handled. Religious wars are not fun.

 

[2PT3]

You do realize of course Lutherans can find lots of quotes from Medieval Popes who said some pretty off the wall things too, right?

Yes, there were some extremely bad and worldly popes. Murderers. Fornicators. Men who bought and sold the papacy. I would never advocate praising them. But this thread is about whether Luther should be praised by Catholics, not about whether certain scandalous popes should be praised by Lutherans.

Nevertheless, if you can find anything from these bad popes approaching Luther’s genocidal attitude toward Jews, please provide it. Likewise, anything like Luther’s very strange and blasphemous teaching that Jesus had sex with the Woman at the well and with Mary Magdalene. Or if you could show me where one of those popes tried to rewrite the Word of God to fit their own theology (like Luther did by adding the word “alone” after “faith” in Romans in his German translation). Etc., etc.

The point is, there was great corruption in the Church, and there were some really bad popes, who helped give rise to Luther’s revolt. But that gives no basis to praise Luther. Rather, it is a basis to lament both the corrupt popes and Luther.

The proper response to the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Revolt, in my opinion, would be a worldwide year of atonement and penance for the corruption that gave rise to the Protestant schism, along with prayers for God to grant all Catholics the strength to live as credible Christian witnesses and for the Holy Spirit to bring about the conversion of all Protestants to the One True Faith.

 

[Peter_J]

From a Lutheran perspective, I would not expect Catholics to praise Luther. I am heartened that there is recognition that the Catholic Church did make some changes as a result of the Reformation, even if those changes cannot be attributed to Luther.

I am heartened by that as well.

Then again, when I listen to Catholics (lay or otherwise) discuss Martin Luther and the “Protestant Revolt”, often times my first thought is: I’m just glad that he wasn’t burned at the stake.

(Yes, seriously.)

 

[SalamKhan]

The Pope is a diplomat as well as head of the Church. It is his duty to say things diplomatically. Not everything he says is Church teaching or infallible truth.

/thread.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

The proper response to the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Revolt, in my opinion, would be a worldwide year of atonement and penance /…/

That may be your opinion. That puts you in direct opposition, however, to Pope Benedict and to Pope Francis. Pope Benedict announced a global celebration which Pope Francis will inaugurate in Sweden this October…according to what Pope Benedict outlined in 2011

In contrast to the term you use, “revolt,” there is the language used by the Holy See today
*VATICAN CITY, JAN. 24, 2011 (Zenit.org)

Here is /…/ the address Benedict XVI gave /…/ a delegation of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Germany, who are in Rome for the end of the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity.

Regional Bishop Friedrich!
Dear Friends of Germany!

I give a cordial welcome to all of you, representatives of top leaders of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Germany, here in the Apostolic Palace, and I am happy because of the fact that you, as a delegation, have come to Rome at the end of the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity /…/

In the meantime, the official dialogue between Lutherans and Catholics — so it is written here — can look back to more than 50 years of intense activity. You spoke of 30 years. I think that 30 years ago, after the Pope’s visit, we began officially, but in fact we had been dialoguing for a long time. I myself was a member of the “Jaeger-Stahlin-Kreis” born directly after the War. One can speak then of 50 or 30 years. Despite the theological differences that continue to exist on questions that in part are fundamental, a “togetherness” has grown between us, which becomes increasingly the basis of a communion lived in faith and in spirituality between Lutherans and Catholics. What has already been achieved reinforces our trust in continuing the dialogue, because only in this way can we stay together on that way that, finally, is Jesus Christ himself

Hence, the commitment of the Catholic Church to ecumenism, as my venerable predecessor Pope John Paul II affirmed in his encyclical “Ut Unum Sint,” is not a mere strategy of communication in a changing world, but a fundamental commitment of the Church from her own mission (cf. Nos. 28-32)

For some contemporaries the common goal of full and visible unity of Christians seems to be again today very far. The ecumenical interlocutors in the dialogue have ideas on the unity of the Church that are completely different. I share the concern of many Christians over the fact that the fruits of the ecumenical endeavor, above all in relation to the idea of Church and ministry, are still not sufficiently received by the ecumenical interlocutors. However, even if new difficulties always arise, we look with hope to the future. Even if the divisions of Christians are an obstacle in molding catholicity fully in the reality of the life of the Church, as was promised in Christ and through Christ (cf. “Unitatis Redintegratio,” No. 4), we are confident in the fact that, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the ecumenical dialogue, as important instrument in the life of the Church, will serve to overcome this conflict. This will happen, in the first place, also through the theological dialogue, which must contribute to understanding on the open questions, which are an obstacle along the path to visible unity and the common celebration of the Eucharist as sacrament of unity among Christians /…/

Today the ecumenical dialogue cannot be split from the reality and from the life in the faith of our Churches without harming them. Hence, let us look together to the year 2017, which will recall theses of Martin Luther from 500 years ago. On that occasion, Lutherans and Catholics will have the opportunity to celebrate throughout the world a common ecumenical commemoration, to fight at the world level for fundamental questions, not — as you yourself have just said — under the form of a triumphant celebration, but as a common profession of our faith in the One and Triune God, in the common obedience to Our Lord and to his Word. We must attribute an important place to common prayer and to interior prayer addressed to our Lord Jesus Christ for forgiveness of mutual wrongs and for the fault related to the divisions. Part of this purification of the conscience is the reciprocal exchange on the appraisal of the 1,500 years that preceded the Reformation, and which are common to us. For this we wish to implore together, in a constant way, the help of God and the assistance of the Holy Spirit, to be able to take further steps toward the unity that we long for, and to not be satisfied with where we are now

We are encouraged along this path also by this year’s Week of Prayer for Christian Unity. It recalls for us the chapter of the Acts of the Apostles: “And they devoted themselves to the Apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers” (Acts 2:42). In these four acts and conduct the early Christians were constant, and therefore the community grew with Christ and from it flowed this “togetherness” of the men of Christ. This extraordinary and visible witness to the world, of the unity of the early Church could also be for us an incentive and norm for our common ecumenical path in the future.

In the hope that your visit will reinforce further the valid collaboration between Lutherans and Catholics in Germany, I implore for you all the grace of God and His abundant blessings *

 

[Don_Ruggero]

/…/ to grant all Catholics the strength to live as credible Christian witnesses and for the Holy Spirit to bring about the conversion of all Protestants to the One True Faith.

Please note that the concept of an “ecumenism of return” has been set aside. This was well articulated by Pope Benedict XVI in:

APOSTOLIC JOURNEY TO COLOGNE: ADDRESS OF POPE BENEDICT XVI

w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/speeches/2005/august/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20050819_ecumenical-meeting.html

*Dear Brothers and Sisters

/…/ I would like now to express the joy I feel on the occasion of my Visit to Germany, in being able to meet you and offer a warm greeting to you, the Representatives of the other Churches and Ecclesial Communities.

As a native of this Country, I am quite aware of the painful situation which the rupture of unity in the profession of the faith has entailed for so many individuals and families. This was one of the reasons why, immediately following my election as Bishop of Rome, I declared, as the Successor of the Apostle Peter, my firm commitment to making the recovery of full and visible Christian unity a priority of my Pontificate

In doing so, I wished consciously to follow in the footsteps of two of my great Predecessors: Pope Paul VI, who over 40 years ago signed the conciliar Decree on Ecumenism Unitatis Redintegratio, and Pope John Paul II, who made that Document the inspiration for his activity

In ecumenical dialogue Germany without a doubt has a place of particular importance. We are the Country where the Reformation began; however, Germany is also one of the countries where the ecumenical movement of the 20th century originated /…/

Together we can rejoice in the fact that the dialogue, with the passage of time, has brought about a renewed sense of our brotherhood and has created a more open and trusting climate between Christians belonging to the various Churches and Ecclesial Communities. My venerable Predecessor, in his Encyclical Ut Unum Sint (1995), saw this as an especially significant fruit of dialogue (cf. nn. 41ff.; 64)

I feel the fact that we consider one another brothers and sisters, that we love one another, that together we are witnesses of Jesus Christ, should not be taken so much for granted. I believe that this brotherhood is in itself a very important fruit of dialogue that we must rejoice in, continue to foster and to practice

Among Christians, fraternity is not just a vague sentiment, nor is it a sign of indifference to truth. **As you just said, Bishop, it is grounded in the supernatural reality of the one Baptism which makes us all members of the one Body of Christ
**
Together we confess that Jesus Christ is God and Lord; together we acknowledge him as the one mediator between God and man (cf. I Tm 2: 5), and we emphasize that together we are members of his Body (cf. Unitatis Redintegratio, n. 22; Ut Unum Sint, n. 42)

Based on this essential foundation of Baptism, a reality comes from him which is a way of being, then of professing, believing and acting. Based on this crucial foundation, dialogue has borne its fruits and will continue to do so

I would like to mention the re-examination of the mutual condemnations, called for by John Paul II during his first Visit to Germany. I recall with some nostalgia that first Visit. I was able to be present when we were together at Mainz in a fairly small and authentic fraternal circle. Some questions were put to the Pope and he described a broad theological vision in which reciprocity was amply treated

That colloquium gave rise to an episcopal, that is, a Church commission, under ecclesial responsibility. Finally, with the contribution of theologians it led to the important Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification (1999) and to an agreement on basic issues that had been a subject of controversy since the 16th century /…/

We all know there are numerous models of unity and you know that the Catholic Church also has as her goal the full visible unity of the disciples of Christ, as defined by the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council in its various Documents (cf. Lumen Gentium, nn. 8, 13; Unitatis Redintegratio, nn. 2, 4, etc.). This unity, we are convinced, indeed subsists in the Catholic Church, without the possibility of ever being lost (cf. Unitatis Redintegratio, n. 4); the Church in fact has not totally disappeared from the world

**On the other hand, this unity does not mean what could be called ecumenism of the return: that is, to deny and to reject one’s own faith history. Absolutely not!

It does not mean uniformity in all expressions of theology and spirituality, in liturgical forms and in discipline. Unity in multiplicity, and multiplicity in unity**: in my Homily for the Solemnity of Sts Peter and Paul on 29 June last, I insisted that full unity and true catholicity in the original sense of the word go together. As a necessary condition for the achievement of this coexistence, the commitment to unity must be constantly purified and renewed; it must constantly grow and mature

To this end, dialogue has its own contribution to make. More than an exchange of thoughts, an academic exercise, it is an exchange of gifts (cf. Ut Unum Sint, n. 28), **in which the Churches and the Ecclesial Communities can make available their own riches **(cf. Lumen Gentium, nn. 8, 15; Unitatis Redintegratio, nn. 3, 14ff.; Ut Unum Sint, nn. 10-14) /…/

With the help that comes from on high, we will also find practical solutions to the different questions which remain open, and in the end our desire for unity will come to fulfilment, whenever and however the Lord wills /…/*

 

[Wannano]

Please note that the concept of an “ecumenism of return” has been set aside. This was well articulated by Pope Benedict XVI in:

APOSTOLIC JOURNEY TO COLOGNE: ADDRESS OF POPE BENEDICT XVI

We all know there are numerous models of unity and you know that the Catholic Church also has as her goal the full visible unity of the disciples of Christ, as defined by the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council in its various Documents (cf. Lumen Gentium, nn. 8, 13; Unitatis Redintegratio, nn. 2, 4, etc.). This unity, we are convinced, indeed subsists in the Catholic Church, without the possibility of ever being lost (cf. Unitatis Redintegratio, n. 4); the Church in fact has not totally disappeared from the world

Question

Could you for my benefit explain just what is really being said in this paragraph? I read it over and over and still wonder what is being said. Simple clarity might be helpful to some of us here whether we be Catholic or non-Catholic.

**On the other hand, this unity does not mean what could be called ecumenism of the return: that is, to deny and to reject one’s own faith history. Absolutely not!

Question

This is so different than what I hear from Catholics on CAF. I came to this forum hoping to gain insight into the Catholic faith. In my non-catholic world I have heard vibes of how the Catholic Church is/has changed from what my ancestors experienced it to be. So many posters here have attitudes that do not confirm this change. I devour all the presentations you have brought forward and am thrilled at what I understand the Church to be saying. Why does there seem to be such a huge disconnect between the Churches presentations and dialogue and the Catholic posters here? Has the Church adequately informed the laity of the changes it implements?

It does not mean uniformity in all expressions of theology and spirituality, in liturgical forms and in discipline. Unity in multiplicity, and multiplicity in unity**: in my Homily for the Solemnity of Sts Peter and Paul on 29 June last, I insisted that full unity and true catholicity in the original sense of the word go together. As a necessary condition for the achievement of this coexistence, the commitment to unity must be constantly purified and renewed; it must constantly grow and mature

Question

I think this paragraph explains the Protestant view of the diverse expressions of the one common faith within the Church of God.

To this end, dialogue has its own contribution to make. More than an exchange of thoughts, an academic exercise, it is an exchange of gifts (cf. Ut Unum Sint, n. 28), **in which the Churches and the Ecclesial Communities can make available their own riches **(cf. Lumen Gentium, nn. 8, 15; Unitatis Redintegratio, nn. 3, 14ff.; Ut Unum Sint, nn. 10-14) /…/

With the help that comes from on high, we will also find practical solutions to the different questions which remain open, and in the end our desire for unity will come to fulfilment, whenever and however the Lord wills /…/[/INDENT]

I have reached the point here on caf where I have begun to feel it is useless and a waste of time. I have wonderful Catholic friends who mirror the attitudes you have shown and presented and that has kept me going. The advantage I see though on being here on caf is the information brought forward on things like the coming Commeration of the Reformation. I have experienced weird looks from both Catholics and Lutherans when I ask them about how they see what is coming this fall because they have never heard of it.

Sorry about the format above, I cannot seem to master the procedure. I hope you find my questions.

 

[rcwitness]

I have reached the point here on caf where I have begun to feel it is useless and a waste of time. I have wonderful Catholic friends who mirror the attitudes you have shown and presented and that has kept me going. The advantage I see though on being here on caf is the information brought forward on things like the coming Commeration of the Reformation. I have experienced weird looks from both Catholics and Lutherans when I ask them about how they see what is coming this fall because they have never heard of it.

Sorry about the format above, I cannot seem to master the procedure. I hope you find my questions.

Would you consider the Council of Trent a positive outcome of the reformation? It would be the Catholic relative reform for its day. Can Protestants celebrate/praise that Council?

 

[rcwitness]

Sorry about the format above, I cannot seem to master the procedure. I hope you find my questions.

What I do is use the quotation above for in the beginning and end of the section I want to respond to. But you need to delete the end quotation in the start and then delete the beginning quotation at the end.

You know the little quote icon above this block? Click on it when your curser is at the spot you want. It will give the beginning and end options.

Maybe someone can explain better. That’s just how I do it.

 

[2PT3]

A commemoration? Sure. A celbration is something entirely different.

But the question on the table is whether we should praise Martin Luther - a person. I suppose there is something to be praised in everyone, but the objective evidence tells me that there is very little to celebrate in Luther, whether in his personal life, his teachings, or in his public actions.

As for the “Reformation” yes, the Counter-Reformation, including Trent, was fruit of the Protestant split. But it is something to weep over and lament - not to celebrate - that the Church was so corrupt that Luther’s schism could gain any steam, and that a Trent was ever necessary. The split of Chistendom was a calamity of millennial proportions. The Body of Christ was rent asunder and has not yet been reunified. Are we supposed to celebrate that? It makes no sense to me.