Should Catholics Praise Martin Luther???

[TertiumQuid]

…or is it perhaps a guy with an anti-Catholic blog (followed by what? Five people?) needs to keep coming back to CAF trying to portray himself as something he is not?
Many Protestants, Lutherans included “in the tangible world” also don’t have an opinion about Luther.
Why? Perhaps because it is not 1517 anymore.
I would rather listen to an old retired priest like Don Ruggero, who has far more experience in the ‘tangible world’ than someone trying to gather a cyber-crowd.

Ah, OK, now I get it. It’s personal for you… against me. I wondered what was going on. You may have the last word… or feel free to insult me again.

Edited to add: I’ve had over a million hits to my blog, and I don’t advertise, or sell anything. Frankly, I write for me, so if those 5 people move on, that’s fine with me.

 

[Son_of_Niall]

Ah, OK, now I get it. It’s personal for you… against me. I wondered what was going on. You may have the last word… or feel free to insult me again.

No ones insulting you dude.
But if you wish to interact with Catholics, maybe you should not spend so much time insulting them on your ‘blog’.
Just sayin’.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

The OP please.

 

[JustaServant]

Edited to add: I’ve had over a million hits to my blog, and I don’t advertise, or sell anything. Frankly, I write for me, so if those 5 people move on, that’s fine with me.

Well, your Facebook page says “731 like this”, that wouldn’t even count as a mega-church.


I pointed out that the OP should perhaps ‘open his mind’ and understand the historic ramifications of Martin Luther. The good, not just the bad. I realize rational people who do argue endlessly over religion does not make riveting reading. But it doesn’t change the fact that we do indeed exist, in large numbers. Protestant and Catholic.

 

[TertiumQuid]

Well, your Facebook page says “731 like this”, that wouldn’t even count as a mega-church.


I pointed out that the OP should perhaps ‘open his mind’ and understand the historic ramifications of Martin Luther. The good, not just the bad. I realize rational people who do argue endlessly over religion does not make riveting reading. But it doesn’t change the fact that we do indeed exist, in large numbers. Protestant and Catholic.

The notion of the open mind is well-stated. Even if I disagree with you or someone else here, I consider it my responsibility to at least make an effort to understand an opposing view from the perspective of the one who holds it. This is also a simple way of describing what happened in post-Lortz Catholic Luther scholarship. One of the primary differences between early and later Catholic approaches to Luther is the shift in emphasis on Luther the person. During the first five hundred years of Catholic evaluations of Luther, there was a strong emphasis on vilifying Luther’s character as one of the means of discrediting the Reformation. The emphasis shifted in the Twentieth Century: Catholic Luther studies evaluated him as a sincere religious man and an honest theologian, even if they disagreed with his theological conclusions. I suspect Fr. Ruggero could comment on this with more insight.

 

[Peter_J]

Interesting conundrum that someone without a body is giving me advice to speak to someone with a body in order to arrive at the correct conclusion on a particular issue.

Keep in mind: I do talk to Catholics in person- but these cyber-discussions attract people who want to talk about certain issues and can at times have knowledge on certain issues (like Luther and the Reformation). On the other hand, I have typically not come across the same with Catholic “bodied” people. Perhaps that’s your point: most (or many) Catholic people out in the tangible world don’t have an opinion or care about Luther one way or other.

FWIW, there is a parish in my town where the priest’s homilies remind me strongly of stuff that I hear on the CA forums. (Keep in mind, though, that my town has about 15 other Catholic parishes as well.)

 

[LutheranScholar]

FWIW, there is a parish in my town where the priest’s homilies remind me strongly of stuff that I hear on the CA forums. (Keep in mind, though, that my town has about 15 other Catholic parishes as well.)

I reckon you must live up North? We have a couple of Catholic parishes here, with one Lutheran congregation apiece representing the Big Three ( ELCA, LCMS and WELS), a Presbyterian church tucked away somewhere and at least four Baptist churches and two Methodist churches. We also have a couple of Muslim mosques and that’s about it. Houses of worship become more varied once you get into Fairfax County, where Jewish synagogues, Hindu temples, Buddhist temples and at least one Sikh Gurdwara are in evidence.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

This is also a simple way of describing what happened in post-Lortz Catholic Luther scholarship. One of the primary differences between early and later Catholic approaches to Luther is the shift in emphasis on Luther the person. During the first five hundred years of Catholic evaluations of Luther, there was a strong emphasis on vilifying Luther’s character as one of the means of discrediting the Reformation. The emphasis shifted in the Twentieth Century: Catholic Luther studies evaluated him as a sincere religious man and an honest theologian, even if they disagreed with his theological conclusions. I suspect Fr. Ruggero could comment on this

As I’ve said before, preparations for the 500th anniversary have been underway for years. The foundational document for this event results from the International Catholic Lutheran dialogue…From Conflict to Communion. For a casual reader, it provides a comprehensive overview of the evolution of the Church’s mind
*Twentieth-century Catholic research on Luther

1. Twentieth-century Catholic research on Luther built upon a Catholic interest in Reformation history that awakened in the second half of the nineteenth century. These theologians followed the efforts of the Catholic population in the Protestant-dominated German empire to free themselves from a one-sided, anti-Roman, Protestant historiography. The breakthrough for Catholic scholarship came with the thesis that Luther overcame within himself a Catholicism that was not fully Catholic. According to this view, the life and teaching of the church in the late Middle Ages served mainly as a negative foil for the Reformation; the crisis in Catholicism made Luther’s religious protest quite convincing to some
2. In a new way, Luther was portrayed as an earnest religious person and conscientious man of prayer. Painstaking and detailed historical research has demonstrated that Catholic literature on Luther over the previous four centuries right up through modernity had been significantly shaped by the commentaries of Johannes Cochaleus, a contemporary opponent of Luther and advisor to Duke George of Saxony. Cochaleus had characterized Luther as an apostatized monk, a destroyer of Christendom, a corrupter of morals, and a heretic. The achievement of this first period of critical, but sympathetic, engagement with Luther’s character was the freeing of Catholic research from the one-sided approach of such polemical works on Luther. Sober historical analyses by other Catholic theologians showed that it was not the core concerns of the Reformation, such as the doctrine of justification, which led to the division of the church but, rather, Luther’s criticisms of the condition of the church at his time that sprang from these concerns
3. The next step for Catholic research on Luther was to uncover analogous contents embedded in different theological thought structures and systems, carried out especially by a systematic comparison between the exemplary theologians of the two confessions, Thomas Aquinas and Martin Luther. This work allowed theologians to understand Luther’s theology within its own framework. At the same time, Catholic research examined the meaning of the doctrine of justification within the Augsburg Confession. Here Luther’s reforming concerns could be set within the broader context of the composition of the Lutheran confessions, with the result that the intention of the Augsburg Confession could be seen as expressing fundamental reforming concerns as well as preserving the unity of the church

Lutheran developments

1. Lutheran research on Luther and the Reformation also underwent considerable development. The experiences of two world wars broke down assumptions about the progress of history and the relationship between Christianity and Western culture, while the rise of kerygmatic theology opened a new avenue for thinking about Luther. Dialogue with historians helped to integrate historical and social factors into descriptions of Reformation movements. Lutheran theologians recognized the entanglements of theological insights and political interests not only on the part of Catholics, but also on their own side. Dialogue with Catholic theologians helped them to overcome one-sided confessional approaches and to become more self-critical about aspects of their own traditions*
   I think, given some of the rather extreme statements that can be found in certain comments, it is worth adding this excerpt from the document as well
   *The importance of ecumenical dialogues
2. The dialogue partners are committed to the doctrines of their respective churches, which, according to their own convictions, express the truth of the faith. The doctrines demonstrate great commonalities but may differ, or even be opposed, in their formulations. Because of the former, dialogue is possible; because of the latter, dialogue is necessary
3. Dialogue demonstrates that the partners speak different languages and understand the meanings of words differently; they make different distinctions and think in different thought forms. However, what appears to be an opposition in expression is not always an opposition in substance. In order to determine the exact relationship between respective articles of doctrine, texts must be interpreted in the light of the historical context in which they arose. That allows one to see where a difference or opposition truly exists and where it does not
4. Ecumenical dialogue means being converted from patterns of thought that arise from and emphasize the differences between the confessions. Instead, in dialogue the partners look first for what they have in common and only then weigh the significance of their differences. These differences, however, are not overlooked or treated casually, for ecumenical dialogue is the common search for the truth of the Christian faith*

 

[rcwitness]

The foundational document for this event results from the International Catholic Lutheran dialogue…From Conflict to Communion. For a casual reader, it provides a comprehensive overview of the evolution of the Church’s mind
*Twentieth-century Catholic research on Luther

1. Twentieth-century Catholic research on Luther built upon a Catholic interest in Reformation history that awakened in the second half of the nineteenth century. These theologians followed the efforts of the Catholic population in the Protestant-dominated German empire to free themselves from a one-sided, anti-Roman, Protestant historiography. The breakthrough for Catholic scholarship came with the thesis that Luther overcame within himself a Catholicism that was not fully Catholic. According to this view, the life and teaching of the church in the late Middle Ages served mainly as a negative foil for the Reformation; the crisis in Catholicism made Luther’s religious protest quite convincing to some
2. In a new way, Luther was portrayed as an earnest religious person and conscientious man of prayer. Painstaking and detailed historical research has demonstrated that Catholic literature on Luther over the previous four centuries right up through modernity had been significantly shaped by the commentaries of Johannes Cochaleus, a contemporary opponent of Luther and advisor to Duke George of Saxony. Cochaleus had characterized Luther as an apostatized monk, a destroyer of Christendom, a corrupter of morals, and a heretic. The achievement of this first period of critical, but sympathetic, engagement with Luther’s character was the freeing of Catholic research from the one-sided approach of such polemical works on Luther. Sober historical analyses by other Catholic theologians showed that it was not the core concerns of the Reformation, such as the doctrine of justification, which led to the division of the church but, rather, Luther’s criticisms of the condition of the church at his time that sprang from these concerns
3. The next step for Catholic research on Luther was to uncover analogous contents embedded in different theological thought structures and systems, carried out especially by a systematic comparison between the exemplary theologians of the two confessions, Thomas Aquinas and Martin Luther. This work allowed theologians to understand Luther’s theology within its own framework. At the same time, Catholic research examined the meaning of the doctrine of justification within the Augsburg Confession. Here Luther’s reforming concerns could be set within the broader context of the composition of the Lutheran confessions, with the result that the intention of the Augsburg Confession could be seen as expressing fundamental reforming concerns as well as preserving the unity of the church

Lutheran developments

1. Lutheran research on Luther and the Reformation also underwent considerable development. The experiences of two world wars broke down assumptions about the progress of history and the relationship between Christianity and Western culture, while the rise of kerygmatic theology opened a new avenue for thinking about Luther. Dialogue with historians helped to integrate historical and social factors into descriptions of Reformation movements. Lutheran theologians recognized the entanglements of theological insights and political interests not only on the part of Catholics, but also on their own side. Dialogue with Catholic theologians helped them to overcome one-sided confessional approaches and to become more self-critical about aspects of their own traditions*
   I think, given some of the rather extreme statements that can be found in certain comments, it is worth adding this excerpt from the document as well
   *The importance of ecumenical dialogues
2. The dialogue partners are committed to the doctrines of their respective churches, which, according to their own convictions, express the truth of the faith. The doctrines demonstrate great commonalities but may differ, or even be opposed, in their formulations. Because of the former, dialogue is possible; because of the latter, dialogue is necessary
3. Dialogue demonstrates that the partners speak different languages and understand the meanings of words differently; they make different distinctions and think in different thought forms. However, what appears to be an opposition in expression is not always an opposition in substance. In order to determine the exact relationship between respective articles of doctrine, texts must be interpreted in the light of the historical context in which they arose. That allows one to see where a difference or opposition truly exists and where it does not
4. Ecumenical dialogue means being converted from patterns of thought that arise from and emphasize the differences between the confessions. Instead, in dialogue the partners look first for what they have in common and only then weigh the significance of their differences. These differences, however, are not overlooked or treated casually, for ecumenical dialogue is the common search for the truth of the Christian faith*

I can appreciate these statements and expressions. As I related earlier, I am not a mere “C.A. ranter”. I have direct relationships with Lutherans and other non-Catholic Christians all around me. And because of this, I am sometimes challenged to defend Catholic Teachings and practices like why the Godparents of my children must be Catholic, or why we are not permitted to receive their Communion when I visit their service (or when they visit a Mass).

I can’t just say, “oh its the rules” and expect them to respect that it is from above. I want to know why we believe and practice these things. I want the Holy Spirit to give me understanding. And then I can provide a honorable answer to their genuine questions.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

A few years later, I had to tell my sister that she would be unable to be a God parent to my son, since she (and her husband are not Catholic). It was not a pleasant conversation. But we are still close.

It is unfortunate that you did not consult a priest. One of the two godparent slots can be filled by a Christian who is non-Catholic and would be listed in the record as “non-Catholic Christian Witness” beside the name of the Catholic Sponsor. They cannot be the sole person in that role as there must be a Catholic who assumes the role with them. From the Code of Canon Law:

Can 874 §2. A baptized person who belongs to a non-Catholic ecclesial community is not to participate except together with a Catholic sponsor and then only as a witness of the baptism.

 

[rcwitness]

It is unfortunate that you did not consult a priest. One of the two godparent slots can be filled by a Christian who is non-Catholic and would be listed in the record as “non-Catholic Christian Witness” beside the name of the Catholic Sponsor. They cannot be the sole person in that role as there must be a Catholic who assumes the role with them. From the Code of Canon Law:

Can 874 §2. A baptized person who belongs to a non-Catholic ecclesial community is not to participate except together with a Catholic sponsor and then only as a witness of the baptism.

Yes, thank you Fr… I am aware of that “clause”. We didn’t want to separate couples. And this still requires an explanation.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I would like to see the 1983 address from Pope JPII that you refer to. The only thing I found was an article from the NY Times. It seemed to stretch the pope’s comments quite a bit.

I only have them now in German and, perhaps some place still, I have a version in Italian.

 

[Peter_J]

And this still requires an explanation.

I don’t have any solid evidence, but I think that would vary from one Protestant to another. Depending on how critical (and I’ve known some who are quite critical), or uncritical, they are they might accept the idea that a Protestant can participate but only together with a Catholic sponsor.

 

[rcwitness]

I don’t have any solid evidence, but I think that would vary from one Protestant to another. Depending on how critical (and I’ve known some who are quite critical), or uncritical, they are they might accept the idea that a Protestant can participate but only together with a Catholic sponsor.

Oh yeah, definitely! Some could accept it, some be indiferent, some get emotional, some feel jaded. You name it…

My sister gave me an ear full! I did my best to explain that God parenting is intended to be a role model for the fulness of the Catholic faith.

But you can imagine how a Christian would feel inferior, or at least treated as such. Why are they “not worthy”? They believe, accept Jesus as Lord, receive Baptism, devote to Communion, etc. But they “can be a witness” so long as a real Catholic is with (whom may be a less devout Christian.

Trust me, I got the verbal lashing, with tears and all… and it didn’t feel good to be in that situation.

 

[rcwitness]

I only have them now in German and, perhaps some place still, I have a version in Italian.

Thanks anyway.

 

[Peter_J]

Oh yeah, definitely! Some could accept it, some be indiferent, some get emotional, some feel jaded. You name it…

My sister gave me an ear full!

Life is fun eh?



But seriously, without wishing to belabor the point, did she understand that the requirement is for one of the two people to be RC? (Just want to get an accurate picture of the situation.)

 

[rcwitness]

Life is fun eh?



But seriously, without wishing to belabor the point, did she understand that the requirement is for one of the two people to be RC? (Just want to get an accurate picture of the situation.)

No problem… yes she did. She was fine after awhile, and went to the service. But I actually appreciated that she expressed some true feelings. These feelings exist a lot of times, but we don’t show it.

 

[IBIJAMR]

New to the forum and looking forward to my pilgrimage to Wittenberg, Germany October 27-November 1, 2017. Answer to praising Martin Luther? No-only worship Jesus, The Holy Ghost and God; for all others have sinned and only Jesus can redeem us.

Having studied Catholic history about ML, as well as non-Catholic documents and I find Luther, like all people, including the Pope, sin. And, like so many denominations, all have faulty histories, and there are no exceptions. So my pilgrimage is not to worship Martin Luther but to celebrate Jesus, the Lamb of God and His death providing the only way anyone can spend eternity with the Father.

I came to recognize my absolute need for redemption and prayed for forgiveness and that Jesus be the King of my life. That was 44 years ago and I’ve grown to love Him beyond anything I could have imagined. He is also first in my life beyond my wife and any other man or woman. But from what I’ve read on the forum today it would seem that my spiritual belief and faith in Jesus would have to be recanted to restore myself to Catholicism.

Please understand when say, Here I stand, I shall never deny Jesus is the Christ and my only Saviour-for there is no other name under heaven by which we must be saved. If that firm belief is not sufficient to Our God and any denomination, including the Catholic Church requires Christ PLUS something, then all those teachers of will be held to account for deceiving millions with false doctrines since Christ is God’s perfect sacrifice.

 

[SyroMalankara]

New to the forum and looking forward to my pilgrimage to Wittenberg, Germany October 27-November 1, 2017. Answer to praising Martin Luther? No-only worship Jesus, The Holy Ghost and God; for all others have sinned and only Jesus can redeem us.

does Jesus reside in Wittenberg?

But from what I’ve read on the forum today it would seem that my spiritual belief and faith in Jesus would have to be recanted to restore myself to Catholicism.

how so?

Please understand when say, Here I stand, I shall never deny Jesus is the Christ and my only Saviour-for there is no other name under heaven by which we must be saved.

that’s some might fine posturing. Luther would give you applause… If you were on his side. If not, he might call you every despicable name under the sun.

If that firm belief is not sufficient to Our God and any denomination, including the Catholic Church requires Christ PLUS something, then all those teachers of will be held to account for deceiving millions with false doctrines since Christ is God’s perfect sacrifice.

Your firm belief and $2 will get you a bus ticket. But you can argue with the driver that your firm belief is enough and he need not collect the $2. Your firm belief would be sufficient to get you a free ride to the hoosegow.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

New to the forum and looking forward to my pilgrimage to Wittenberg, Germany October 27-November 1, 2017. Answer to praising Martin Luther? No-only worship Jesus, The Holy Ghost and God; for all others have sinned and only Jesus can redeem us.

Having studied Catholic history about ML, as well as non-Catholic documents and I find Luther, like all people, including the Pope, sin. And, like so many denominations, all have faulty histories, and there are no exceptions. So my pilgrimage is not to worship Martin Luther but to celebrate Jesus, the Lamb of God and His death providing the only way anyone can spend eternity with the Father.

I came to recognize my absolute need for redemption and prayed for forgiveness and that Jesus be the King of my life. That was 44 years ago and I’ve grown to love Him beyond anything I could have imagined. He is also first in my life beyond my wife and any other man or woman. But from what I’ve read on the forum today it would seem that my spiritual belief and faith in Jesus would have to be recanted to restore myself to Catholicism.

Please understand when say, Here I stand, I shall never deny Jesus is the Christ and my only Saviour-for there is no other name under heaven by which we must be saved. If that firm belief is not sufficient to Our God and any denomination, including the Catholic Church requires Christ PLUS something, then all those teachers of will be held to account for deceiving millions with false doctrines since Christ is God’s perfect sacrifice.

How wonderful. I wish I could be in Wittenberg next year. For that matter, I wish I were well enough to travel to Sweden next month!

You will likely find yourself in very special company next year, with others making this epic and historic pilgrimage.

May the Lord’s blessing be upon you and may He continue to guide you in your journey to Him always.