Should Catholics support a One World global economic plan?

[mosher]

seabird3579:

Well, now they simply get big oppressive governments such as China to do their dirty work, they like oppressive governments, its good for “profits” and stockholders like profits. Christian stockholders don’t like these kinds of companies, but plenty of stockholders don’t really care one way or the other, gold is gold as far as they are concerned.

I don’t know what catechism or encyclicals you’ve been reading, but All of the ones I’ve been reading deal precisely with a living wage. They even use the phrase living wage.

The Church is very much against the abuse and “use” of human beings for profit motives. This would be referred to in different teachings as “using human beings for utilitarian purposes”.

For that matter, RICO has to do with American laws and does not have to do with teachings dealing with fair labor practices as explained in some encyclicals.

Not all American laws, though legal, are always moral. The abortion rights laws should be proof of that.

You mentioned the phrase, “giving a man a fish, or teaching a man to fish.” Well, these predatorial corporations don’t teach a thing. They are there to use the indigenent people for their talents and labor at a very cheap cost, use them up and move on.

They actually would be admired IF they built the community up with needed clean water, plumbing, proper waste disposal, and built schools — but they don’t.

The issue is the bottomline. The profit margin matters more. So it’s quite convenient when there is an oppressive government to deny the people proper labor conditions and a living wage.

U.S. labor laws are “not compatible” with their *bottomline * mentality, so they go to third world countries. This attitude is not acceptable for Catholics desiring to live out their Faith.

Your retoric is completely and utterly false. It is the result of American corporations that those countries have what they have. My premise is that American companies do provide a living wage that is consistant with the economic situation of that country. What you cease to understand is that you cannot bring these countries to a point consistant with First world nations because when it has been tried it has always caused civil war. One must move slowly and carefully to improve their situation which is being done in so far as it is able to be done. Your activist perspective is divorced from reality.

 

[seabird3579]

I’ve heard this rhetoric about impoverished nations having a great opportunity to work…at all, and, are thrilled to be able to just work nevermind the extreme low wages and grossly poor working conditions.

To me, that is like saying, “we threw them a bone and they all dived on it, they’ve never had a bone before…”

Well, you know what, As a Christian, you have more of an employer responsibility that to ‘throw them a bone’. The gospels are explicit about employers paying a living wage and following the “…love they neighbor as thyself” philosophy. They don’t get to escape that command just because they are employers.

To love your neighbor as yourself means to put yourself in their shoes. If you lived liked they are forced to live, would you want your family, your wife, your daughters to work under the conditions these people are forced to live. And, if you think it isn’t that bad, then you really haven’t done your research.

I just can’t buy the lie (no matter how many times it’s repeated) that “this is better than nothing.” Well, it might make the cut for pagan corporations, but it does not suffice for Christian companies or Christian investors.

If you are Angry about what I’m saying, your issues lie with the gospel as given by Jesus, not with me. Take it up with Him.

 

[Orionthehunter]

From seabird: I just can’t buy the lie (no matter how many times it’s repeated) that “this is better than nothing.” Well, it might make the cut for pagan corporations, but it does not suffice for Christian companies or Christian investors.

It must be comforting to have the omniscience of God. You either know that these people wish that they had no job other than the one they choose to accept as it is the best opportunity they have to feed and clothe their family or you know better than they what is best for them.

I myself in my humility and respect for these people, pray and assume that they know what is best for them.

Furthermore, this attitude of “I know what is best” is why I think that government should be restrained as big government people are quick to substitute their judgment of fairness, equality, etc. for those most affected.

 

[seabird3579]

Orionthehunter:

It must be comforting to have the omniscience of God. You either know that these people wish that they had no job other than the one they choose to accept as it is the best opportunity they have to feed and clothe their family or you know better than they what is best for them.

I myself in my humility and respect for these people, pray and assume that they know what is best for them.

Furthermore, this attitude of “I know what is best” is why I think that government should be restrained as big government people are quick to substitute their judgment of fairness, equality, etc. for those most affected.

I’ve never claimed to be God, I only proclaim what is in the gospel. If that “bothers” you, you have an issue with the The Gospel itself, therefore, God Himself.

Futhermore, there is another parable that Jesus told related directly to this issue.

It is the parable of the Rich Man and the beggar Lazarus. If you’ll remember Lazarus during his life on earth was forced to eat the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table.

Jesus goes on to say that in the afterlife, the was a huge abyss between the rich man and Lazarus the beggar. The rich man was begging the Lord to have Lazarus dip his finger in water to place on the rich man’s tongue.

The Lord explained that their roles had been reversed in the afterlife.

Scripture goes on to say that “what we measure out to others will be measured back to us.”

God will use “our measuring stick” with which to measure our portion in the afterlife. What we give in this world will be given back to us in the same measure.

So the lesson, in my estimation, is learn Now how to walk in your brothers shoes and give accordingly, OR experience it for all eternity.

Since you struggle with the gospel lessons, as we all do, I will remember you in my lenten prayers.

 

[seabird3579]

Orionthehunter:

Seabird, there is so much to reply to.

In summary, my main problem is your belief that corporations are to be held to moral principles like people. God gave us His revelation to guide us and not the animals or the tools we use when we practice our dominion over His creation. Corporations are just a tool. .

It’s obvious you’ve been listening to the Serpent, better change channels…

 

[Orionthehunter]

seabird3579:

It’s obvious you’ve been listening to the Serpent, better change channels…

LOL. Man was given dominion over all the earth. God didn’t make the animals, the plants, or the tools we make on this earth an equivalent standing. Your trying to “humanize” corporations is comparable to people who assert that animals have the same rights as people. This my friend is the message of the pagans.

Frankly, your characterization of my views as being from the Devil is “false witness”.

From seabird: I’ve never claimed to be God, I only proclaim what is in the gospel. If that “bothers” you, you have an issue with the The Gospel itself, therefore, God Himself.

I see. You aren’t God but the Magisterium. Get real.

 

[seabird3579]

Orionthehunter:

But please, you are bearing false witness when you make broad generalizations that everyone in business who strives to make a profit are being greedy.

No sir, I’m only referring to the corporations who *knowlingly * choose their employees so that they can purposefully pay low wages and make *large * profits. I’m only referring to the ones who *purposefully don’t pay attention * to the working conditions, safety standards and envirornmental effects of their “production” of goods. I’m talking about those who ignore human rights abuses (and purposefully leave that to the individual governments such as China) to deal with; production and profits being the bottomline.

Look these corporations know who they are, and they are usually very self-defensive about it. Guilt does that.

 

[seabird3579]

Orionthehunter:

LOL. Man was given dominion over all the earth. God didn’t make the animals, the plants, or the tools we make on this earth an equivalent standing. Your trying to “humanize” corporations is comparable to people who assert that animals have the same rights as people. This my friend is the message of the pagans.

Frankly, your characterization of my views as being from the Devil is “false witness”.

I see. You aren’t God but the Magisterium. Get real.

Your “serpent-speak” is not convincing me otherwise.

You may want to seriously consider getting a spiritual director.

You would have to have a personality disorder to separate yourself from your moral actions. That would include separating yourself from what the corporation does that you work for!

Many liberal politicians have this same disorder.

They like to say that they are personally pro-life, but cannot see imposing that on others!

*Please! * You really should seek some spiritual direction, these false concepts of the holy gospel can be overcome with good teaching and solid instruction.

If you are a Catholic, the first readings I would recommend are Pope John II’s encyclicals, maybe starting with the **“Splendor of Truth.” **

If you are open to the Truth, it should be very helpful.

Peace.

 

[Orionthehunter]

seabird3579:

No sir, I’m only referring to the corporations who *knowlingly * choose their employees so that they can purposefully pay low wages and make *large * profits. I’m only referring to the ones who *purposefully don’t pay attention * to the working conditions, safety standards and envirornmental effects of their “production” of goods. I’m talking about those who ignore human rights abuses (and purposefully leave that to the individual governments such as China) to deal with; production and profits being the bottomline.

Look these corporations know who they are, and they are usually very self-defensive about it. Guilt does that.

At risk of repeating myself, corporations don’t do anything from a moral perspective. Only people can do moral or immoral things. Corporations can be used for moral or immoral purposes just as the internet can be used morally or immorally but that doesn’t infer on them any spiritual or ethical consequences.

Additionally, your are judging a person’s motives when you say “purposely paying low wages to make large profits” and unless you are God, you are incapable of such a judgment.

Furthermore, who are you to determine what are low wages sitting at your computer screen in America? Is a US company who pays 20% more than the prevailing wage in China paying high or low wages? Don’t you think you should ask the employees in China their thoughts? And who are you to judge if profits are too much? Do you have an understanding of the risks and the investment it took to make those profits?

Finally, I think it is a good thing consistent with the Gospel for an American company to hire people in China so long as they aren’t forced labor, treat them with dignity, don’t pay exploitive wages (your definition of exploitive is irrelevant to me as I greater value whether the worker in China feels exploited). It is in this way that we are improving their standard of living (yellow people are just as entitled to have job opportunities as white people), have a chance to witness Christian/Western values of dignity, and improve relations w/ a country that currently may be the greatest threat to human dignity and peace in the world.

Regarding them being defensive, maybe they are just tired of judgmental, arrogant, uninformed people telling them how to run their companies and casting aspersions on their moral souls.

 

[Orionthehunter]

seabird3579:

Your “serpent-speak” is not convincing me otherwise.

You may want to seriously consider getting a spiritual director.

You would have to have a personality disorder to separate yourself from your moral actions. That would include separating yourself from what the corporation does that you work for!

Many liberal politicians have this same disorder.

They like to say that they are personally pro-life, but cannot see imposing that on others!

*Please! * You really should seek some spiritual direction, these false concepts of the holy gospel can be overcome with good teaching and solid instruction.

If you are a Catholic, the first readings I would recommend are Pope John II’s encyclicals, maybe starting with the **“Splendor of Truth.” **

If you are open to the Truth, it should be very helpful.

Peace.

I have a spiritual director, in addition to my pastor. he is a good holy man who recently conducted a week long silent retreat for Mother Theresa’s Sister’s of Charity. I strongly suggest that you stay on the subject and not casting aspersions on others. If you don’t want to address direct my opinions and assertions, you really shouldn’t resort to name calling. Bearing false witness is grave matter and making statements about another person without sufficient knowledge is bearing false witness. You could have better informed you about me by just readign some of my other posts. To make accusations w/o even an attempt to inform yourself is wreckless.

Where have I ever advocated separating myself from my actions?

 

[seabird3579]

Corporations, made of up of people yes (not hard to figure out), have a Board of Directors and All of them have a Business Plan. Within the Business Plan, it states the Goals of the Corporation. If it does not specifically state that they intend to employ christian principles for employment and the environment, you can take it for granted that they won’t.

Now you as an individual, have a choice to make. Will I or won’t I work for an immoral company? Will I or won’t I be complicit in their immoral behavior? And, if your answer is yes, then you’ve done two things. You’ve agreed to participate in immoral behavior, and if you did it because you need the money, it is no different than stealing.

God tells us endlessly through Scripture, “TRUST ME.” Have Faith, God will supply all your needs.

When you fail to trust Him and instead choose to steal, your sin becomes all the more grave.

Only repentance and Faith will save you.

 

[seabird3579]

Ask your Spiritual Director one direct question:

Is it morally okay to work for a Corporation that makes large profits while not offering their employees a Living Wage or healthy working conditions? The second part of that question would be, is it okay to make young girls, under 16, work 14 to 16 hours a day with barely a break and pay them $1.00 a day?

Just ask and let me know his answer.

 

[mosher]

seabird3579:

Ask your Spiritual Director one direct question:

Is it morally okay to work for a Corporation that makes large profits while not offering their employees a Living Wage or healthy working conditions? The second part of that question would be, is it okay to make young girls, under 16, work 14 to 16 hours a day with barely a break and pay them $1.00 a day?

Just ask and let me know his answer.

But this is my point. This type of American corporation no longer exists and has not for decades. The American companies that have taken their business to other shores are paying prime wages for that nations economy (again I cite Honduras and my Franciscan friend’s experience as a missionary). They are progressively working to have better health standards but require a more stable governmental infrustructure to do so which is all a process and cannot be done over night unless one wants civil war. Further, no company makes a person work for any amount of time - the employee chooses to do so or they find work elseware. Is it wrong for that child to work those types of hours, I am not sure, in American we have deemed it illegal but is it immoral I don’t think so. You are missing the forrest for the sake of the trees.

 

[Orionthehunter]

seabird3579:

Ask your Spiritual Director one direct question:

Is it morally okay to work for a Corporation that makes large profits while not offering their employees a Living Wage or healthy working conditions? The second part of that question would be, is it okay to make young girls, under 16, work 14 to 16 hours a day with barely a break and pay them $1.00 a day?

Just ask and let me know his answer.

I already know his answer- Yes. The reason I know as these two issues have been addressed by my Pastor.

Target Corp. donates money to Planned Parenthood. Target employs a number of kids from our parish as checkers. They treat the kids well, accommodate their sport, school, and CCD obligations. From a concern of our Youth Minister, our Pastor said that the jobs didn’t entail supporting Planned Parenthood.

There is a company in town that provides a good service in our town valued by its customers. However, the owner donates money to Planned Parenthood. A parishioner asked if by working at a job she loves she is indirectly contributing to abortion. Again,the pastor said that as long as the work and the product is not objectionable, she is free to work there w/o spiritual consequence.

In both cases, we are not held responsible for the immoral acts of our employer. If we ever rise up to a level of influence, we can and should try to witness the Good News by affecting change. And as consumers or investors, we are encouraged to exercise our views on corporate conduct by not patronizing them or buying their stock. However, to patronize them is not necessarily a sin. It would be a rare corporation today that didn’t have at least come policy or practice contrary to Church teaching (ala nearly every unionized company in the U.S. recognize same sex couples for health benefits).

Seabird, if you want debate specific issues raised on this thread are net positives or negatives in furthering the Gospel, that is what these forums are for. I’m happy to debate issues like these as they are matters open to Prudence (See Paragraph 1806 in the Catechism). The Church celebrates our exercise of Prudence as it is part and parcel to free will (a gift from God to love Him) and our ability to reason (another gift from God). Issues of Doctrine, Dogma, Authority, are not issues open to debate as the Church holds exclusive authority on these issues.

It is ironic that your condemnation of me personally in my excercising of Prudence in a thread that started about religious expression.

However, reducing complex issues which good people can disagree to simpleton bromides filled with judgment of another person’s moral standing when they disagree w/ you on at least the issues of this thread is outside your moral authority. If you insist in continuing your assault on my morality, I will have to refrain from responding for fear that I would be tempted to sin.

P.S. It is illegal for an American company to employ child labor and this prohibition extends to foriegn countries. You really should know more about the issue before you slander the executives of American companies. Bearing false witness is a grave matter.

 

[Brendan]

seabird3579:

Ask your Spiritual Director one direct question:

Is it morally okay to work for a Corporation that makes large profits while not offering their employees a Living Wage or healthy working conditions? The second part of that question would be, is it okay to make young girls, under 16, work 14 to 16 hours a day with barely a break and pay them $1.00 a day?

Just ask and let me know his answer.

So are you saying that these young girls are being morally illict because they work for that corporation?

Or that these young girls should look for employment in a more moral corporation that provides benefits and a Living Wage?

 

[Asking]

That is true, I earn 1700 pesos per month, which is 548 dollars per month.

That may not sound like much to an American but in Argentina it is a middle class income.

edit: I am answering to mosher´s post number 4 in this thread

 

[mosher]

Asking:

That is true, I earn 1700 pesos per month, which is 548 dollars per month.

That may not sound like much to an American but in Argentina it is a middle class income.

edit: I am answering to mosher´s post number 4 in this thread

Thank you for the affirmation.

 

[LatinCat]

I would like to ask a question. What does everyone mean by a living wage? Are talking only about foreign nations or a living wage in the US as well?

 

[koda]

seabird3579:

No sir, I’m only referring to the corporations who *knowlingly * choose their employees so that they can purposefully pay low wages and make *large * profits. I’m only referring to the ones who *purposefully don’t pay attention * to the working conditions, safety standards and envirornmental effects of their “production” of goods. I’m talking about those who ignore human rights abuses (and purposefully leave that to the individual governments such as China) to deal with; production and profits being the bottomline.

Look these corporations know who they are, and they are usually very self-defensive about it. Guilt does that.

Corporations are run by people. People who decide on policies, usually based on the bottom line and how high their salaries and bonuses can go. Corporations aren’t robots. The people who run them make conscious decisions to use the cheapest labor possible, to circumvent environmental and worker safety laws as much as possible. The sins of the corporation are the sins of the men who run it and who make the immoral decisions.

The global plan is to do everything possible to get everything from raw materials to labor to transportation as cheaply as possible. Monsanto has altered its corn seed so that it is patentable. Now, when farmers try to use some of the corn they grow as seed for the next crop, Monsanto wants to be paid.

To learn more, watch the documentary “The Corporation.” You might be surprised at what’s going on in the name of greed.

 

[seabird3579]

Orionthehunter:

Target Corp. donates money to Planned Parenthood. .

Thanks for the info. I won’t be shopping at Target anymore either.