Should Catholics support a One World global economic plan?

[seabird3579]

koda:

Corporations are run by people. People who decide on policies, usually based on the bottom line and how high their salaries and bonuses can go. Corporations aren’t robots. The people who run them make conscious decisions to use the cheapest labor possible, to circumvent environmental and worker safety laws as much as possible. The sins of the corporation are the sins of the men who run it and who make the immoral decisions.

The global plan is to do everything possible to get everything from raw materials to labor to transportation as cheaply as possible. Monsanto has altered its corn seed so that it is patentable. Now, when farmers try to use some of the corn they grow as seed for the next crop, Monsanto wants to be paid.

To learn more, watch the documentary “The Corporation.” You might be surprised at what’s going on in the name of greed.

Thank you for making my point more clearly, and I will try to listen for that Documentary.

God bless you for standing up for the poor and underprivileged. As the Old Testament says over and over again, “God hears the cry of the poor.” and …“He will not abandon them.”

 

[Brendan]

koda:

The global plan is to do everything possible to get everything from raw materials to labor to transportation as cheaply as possible. :

So let me get this straight.

If I wanted to have a new deck built, it would be immoral to see where I could get 2x4’s and contractors for the least possible cost.

Or my wife can’t try different grocery stores for the cheapest flour and juice.

Or at least we can’t without being part of ‘the global plan’

 

[Brendan]

koda:

Monsanto has altered its corn seed so that it is patentable. Now, when farmers try to use some of the corn they grow as seed for the next crop, Monsanto wants to be paid. :

So why would they use the Monsanto corn in the first place? Perhaps the farmer might think he could grow more corn than the extra seed would cost.

Is Monsanto forcing him to use Monsanto corn, or can he continue to use the corn seed he had from the last harvest?

 

[LatinCat]

Brendan:

So let me get this straight.

If I wanted to have a new deck built, it would be immoral to see where I could get 2x4’s and contractors for the least possible cost.

Or my wife can’t try different grocery stores for the cheapest flour and juice.

Or at least we can’t without being part of ‘the global plan’

I guess we all better just become farmers and make our own food and sew our own clothes. To bad that will make the United Sates a poor nation and we won’t be able to be the most charitable nation on earth. Oh well. If that’s what the liberals want.

 

[Coram_Deo]

sometimes im amused and saddend all at the same time on this issue. in rev. and in daniel the bible predicts clearly the development of the new world order, now called globalization. we
can see it is here. not fully formed. but far from its infancy. the church it would seem should see this and by and for Gods Glory
navigate these waters with great discearnment. just a little to much to the left and the church finds itself operating in error masked as light. to far to the right we fail to take advantage of this present budding tower of babel in bringing men to the Gospel.to those destined to slavery to slavery they shall go. to those destined to the sword to the sword they go. if by our lives or deaths
we can propagate the Gospell. so be it.

 

[seabird3579]

Brendan:

So let me get this straight.

If I wanted to have a new deck built, it would be immoral to see where I could get 2x4’s and contractors for the least possible cost.

Or my wife can’t try different grocery stores for the cheapest flour and juice.

Or at least we can’t without being part of ‘the global plan’

Your arguement is even worse than the plantation owner who says, “Wait a minute, no slaves? Who else will pick the cotton for free?”

I guess slavery makes good business sense, but paying a just wage makes good gospel sense.

 

[seabird3579]

Posters, just because you become “comfy” and use to an immoral system, doesn’t mean you’re entitled to stick with it.

All of us, as Christians, should be ever looking for ways to make sure that All human beings are paid a decent day’s pay for a decent day’s work.

As Christians, we should make sure that children aren’t being exploited with long days of labor, barely a meal break, no days off and very little compensation.

The United States went through these type of labor issues in the early 1900s and that’s why our Labor laws were created. To protect against the exploitation of children and low wages.

We need to *enact * and Vote for laws that hold Employers and Corporations Accountable. That is our Christian duty.

IF that means making your own clothing or *Doing Without * a lot of the latest and greatest techno games, so be it.

Jesus never said following Him would be easy. He said, "Pick up your cross and follow Me."

He also told the *Rich man * who asked what more he could do to be perfect, "Sell all that you have, give to the poor, and follow Me."

The passage goes on to say that **…“the Rich man walked away sad, for he was a man of many possessions.” ** We are left to assume that he chose not to follow Christ because his possessions were more important to him.

Calling a halt to this entire machinery of big profits off of human slavery and indignity will not be easy – and stopping it will not happen overnight. But like they say in 12-step programs, first you have to recognize your problem before you can get better.

We can start with being re-programmed. We can start by listening to Christian tapes and reading the gospels. We should stop getting our “purpose for living” from individuals who practice making large profits at the expense of exploitation, and want you to ‘join them.’

Just because something is legal, does not make it moral. As Christians, we must do a better job at making sure that we’re not contributing to a system that dehumanizes others so we can have material comforts.

If you are not willing to do the job that others do, for the same pay and the same lifestyle, then it is not right that you sanction it with your purchasing power (which is like voting for it).

All of us interested in the dignity and well-being of all human beings, need to start making different personal choices and get serious about it. And, I am talking to myself as well. I don’t pretend to be above what everyone else is facing. ALL of us need to begin today evaluating how our lifestyles contribute to the abuse of children and the indignity of all human beings.

God is Love. He commanded us to “love our neighbor as ourselves.” Those who follow Him will do as He commands. Those who don’t, won’t. We can’t say we love God, and then fail to love our neighbor.

 

[Brendan]

seabird3579:

Your arguement is even worse than the plantation owner who says, “Wait a minute, no slaves? Who else will pick the cotton for free?”

I guess slavery makes good business sense, but paying a just wage makes good gospel sense.

I gave no argument, only posed questions for consideration.

I will restate them.

Is it an immoral act of a person to attempt to find the cheapest raw materials (2x4’s) and labor (carpenters) if they wanted a deck built for their house?

Is it an immoral act for a housewife to seek out the cheapest source of groceries for her family?

 

[Orionthehunter]

seabird3579:

Posters, just because you become “comfy” and use to an immoral system, doesn’t mean you’re entitled to stick with it.

**All of us, as Christians, should be ever looking for ways to make sure that All human beings are paid a decent day’s pay for a decent day’s work.

As Christians, we should make sure that children aren’t being exploited with long days of labor, barely a meal break, no days off and very little compensation.**

The United States went through these type of labor issues in the early 1900s and that’s why our Labor laws were created. To protect against the exploitation of children and low wages.

We need to *enact * and Vote for laws that hold Employers and Corporations Accountable. That is our Christian duty.

IF that means making your own clothing or *Doing Without * a lot of the latest and greatest techno games, so be it.

Jesus never said following Him would be easy. He said, "Pick up your cross and follow Me."

He also told the *Rich man * who asked what more he could do to be perfect, "Sell all that you have, give to the poor, and follow Me."

The passage goes on to say that **…“the Rich man walked away sad, for he was a man of many possessions.” ** We are left to assume that he chose not to follow Christ because his possessions were more important to him.

Calling a halt to this entire machinery of big profits off of human slavery and indignity will not be easy – and stopping it will not happen overnight. But like they say in 12-step programs, first you have to recognize your problem before you can get better.

We can start with being re-programmed. We can start by listening to Christian tapes and reading the gospels. We should stop getting our “purpose for living” from individuals who practice making large profits at the expense of exploitation, and want you to ‘join them.’

Just because something is legal, does not make it moral. As Christians, we must do a better job at making sure that we’re not contributing to a system that dehumanizes others so we can have material comforts.

If you are not willing to do the job that others do, for the same pay and the same lifestyle, then it is not right that you sanction it with your purchasing power (which is like voting for it).

All of us interested in the dignity and well-being of all human beings, need to start making different personal choices and get serious about it. And, I am talking to myself as well. I don’t pretend to be above what everyone else is facing. ALL of us need to begin today evaluating how our lifestyles contribute to the abuse of children and the indignity of all human beings.

God is Love. He commanded us to “love our neighbor as ourselves.” Those who follow Him will do as He commands. Those who don’t, won’t. We can’t say we love God, and then fail to love our neighbor.

I respect that you have reached an opinion that the economic system doesn’t insure economic justice. I am glad that you are willing to express yourself and take action within your means to improve economic justice.

I think we both agree that Justice begins with a constant and firm will to give their due to God and neighbor. I endorse your goals at the top of your post that I bolded and think that Christians need to be engaged in the solution. We just see differently the mechanics are most effective. You think the government is the solution. I respectfully feel it is the problem in too many cases.

However, I wish you’d respect my opinion that economic justice is maximized/optimized within the constraints of our human nature via a different economic system than you believe. Your characterization that those who differ w/ you are either ignorant or with evil malice not “interested in the dignity and well-being of all human beings” is at best condescending and at worst slanderous.

 

[seabird3579]

Brendan:

I gave no argument, only posed questions for consideration.

I will restate them.

Is it an immoral act of a person to attempt to find the cheapest raw materials (2x4’s) and labor (carpenters) if they wanted a deck built for their house?

Is it an immoral act for a housewife to seek out the cheapest source of groceries for her family?

Issue #1. I would look for wood that’s processed in a morally acceptable manner. For example, the laborers were paid a just wage and the employer replenished the land that he harvested the wood from.

Issue #2. Your wife should be more interested as to “where” the groceries were harvested and “what” the laborers were paid. She should also be interested in whether or not they worked under healthy conditions.

Investigating these conditions will take some time and effort. No one will hand you the answers on a silver platter. You may have to start with an internet search and continue from their.

Furthering your education on how goods are manufactured, what conditions laborers work under, and if employers are following legal and moral responsibilities, is a good thing.

If you find good news and all checks out, you can buy with confidence. If all is not above board, you can participate in changing things, including your own personal buying habits.

Also, this isn’t all bad news. IF you find an employer or corporation that goes out of it’s way to practice moral labor standards, reward him by writing a letter of appreciation. Tell him that you intend to spread the word about his exceptional behavior.

Spreading the word about good employers furthers their business and helps them to know that Christians and all people of good will appreciate them treating their workers with dignity.

 

[seabird3579]

Orionthehunter:

However, I wish you’d respect my opinion that economic justice is maximized/optimized within the constraints of our human nature via a different economic system than you believe…

What “economic system” do I believe in? I’ve only talked about the gospel. I’ve only quoted Jesus in the New Testament. Is that a particular economic system?

 

[seabird3579]

LatinCat:

I guess we all better just become farmers and make our own food and sew our own clothes. To bad that will make the United Sates a poor nation and we won’t be able to be the most charitable nation on earth. Oh well. If that’s what the liberals want.

Now, now…don’t cry in you beer too long. You see the deception is that we are a wealthy nation. Just because we live like kings and queens doesn’t mean we are a wealthy nation.

As the commercial says…“we’re in debt up to our eyeballs.” Carrying a huge debt is not a sign of wealth. In fact, it is a sign of poverty.

If we really had to pay cash, many of us would live in a tent, ride a bike and decide to grow our own food. Not so bad, our ancestors lived through “hard times” and they turned out just fine.

Our biggest debt as a country comes from our enormous trade deficit.

…can someone remind me of the reason we believe in “free” trade?

 

[Orionthehunter]

seabird3579:

What “economic system” do I believe in? I’ve only talked about the gospel. I’ve only quoted Jesus in the New Testament. Is that a particular economic system?

I believe that capitalism (coupled with Consitutional Representative Democracy to insure the rule of law) is the best economic system as it allows for the efficient use of labor, capital, and intellectual property. And it the inherent freedom’s associated with capitalism, it best allows individuals to best mitigate the people left behind through corporal works of charity and mercy, best allows people to freely exercise their faith, and grants the greatest respect for the individual made in God’s image.

You might have quoted scripture but you’ve also criticized and characterized as evil corporations, profits, business executives/owners, and everyone who didn’t agree with your thoughts.

Except for your scriptural references, the only political/economic thought consistent w/ your thoughts I could think of was Marxism. I apologize if I misinterpreted your economic philosophy.

Furthermore, the Gospel is not intended to be treastise on economic thought. It is first and foremost revelation by Christ for people to allow them to better know God and think rightly about Him. And as we better know Him, we can better love Him and experience His love. And as we better love Him and experience His love, we will better know His plan for us.

Reducing the Bible as a “How to” book on how to live or an economic/political guide on philosophy reduces Jesus Christ to a “Great Teacher” along the lines of Buddha, Ghandi, etc. and not the Incarnate. This is the ploy of the liberation theologians commonly articulated in Latin America that Popes JP2 and B16 have so aggressively and emphatically denounced to the point that this is the largest single group excommunicated since the Middle Ages.

 

[precious_roy]

seabird3579:

Now, now…don’t cry in you beer too long. You see the deception is that we are a wealthy nation. Just because we live like kings and queens doesn’t mean we are a wealthy nation.

As the commercial says…“we’re in debt up to our eyeballs.” Carrying a huge debt is not a sign of wealth. In fact, it is a sign of poverty.

If we really had to pay cash, many of us would live in a tent, ride a bike and decide to grow our own food. Not so bad, our ancestors lived through “hard times” and they turned out just fine.

Our biggest debt as a country comes from our enormous trade deficit.

…can someone remind me of the reason we believe in “free” trade?

Well, if I were to provide a economic founding father answer:

“[With Free Trade] the obvious and simple system of natural liberty establishes itself of its own accord. Every man, as long as he does not violate the laws of justice, is left perfectly free to pursue his own interest his own way and to bring both his industry and capital into competition with those of any other man or order of men.” Adam Smith, Wealth of Nations, pg 745

In reality however, a governing body is needed because of the diverse governance of nations. Maybe the UN could champion the effort?

 

[seabird3579]

Orionthehunter:

You might have quoted scripture but you’ve also criticized and characterized as evil corporations, profits, business executives/owners, and everyone who didn’t agree with your thoughts.

Except for your scriptural references, the only political/economic thought consistent w/ your thoughts I could think of was Marxism. I apologize if I misinterpreted your economic philosophy.

Furthermore, the Gospel is not intended to be treastise on economic thought.

I specifically criticized a certain kind of corporation, not all corporations. The gospel prescribes how employers are to treat employees, it’s not a personal invention of mine.

I am not a Marxist anymore than you are. Communism does not allow room for God, therefore, it will always fail.

My children would laugh at you, no one is more “traditional” than I am. I am a dinosaur of traditionalism next to any other Catholic in my town, but thanks for the strange perspective…
I may be wrong, but you sound like you have a strong protestant view of the gospel. It does not reflect a Catholic view. In short the Catholic view is that we are our brother’s keeper.

One of my biggest issues with the protestant view is that it tends to be self-centered, particularly the “prosperity gospel” of health and wealth. It seems to be a philosophy of “you give so you can get in return”…not the one Jesus taught that’s for sure.

Jesus taught that we should give without the left hand knowing what the right hand was doing, and, we should lay up our treasure in heaven.

Everything in this world is passing away, all that will be left is the treasure we have layed up in heaven. I don’t know about you but I have a long way to go!

 

[seabird3579]

precious_roy"[With Free Trade:

the obvious and simple system of natural liberty establishes itself of its own accord. Every man, as long as he does not violate the laws of justice, is left perfectly free to pursue his own interest his own way and to bring both his industry and capital into competition with those of any other man or order of men." Adam Smith, Wealth of Nations, pg 745

I guess therein lies the problem. Wasn’t it Benjamin Franklin that said a democracy could not last unless it was governed by Christians? Notice he wasn’t in favor of more laws, just persons governed by Christian principles.

Profits without regard to just wages and decent working conditions is not a christian principle.

 

[precious_roy]

seabird3579:

I guess therein lies the problem. Wasn’t it Benjamin Franklin that said a democracy could not last unless it was governed by Christians? Notice he wasn’t in favor of more laws, just persons governed by Christian principles.

Profits without regard to just wages and decent working conditions is not a christian principle.

Actually, I was answering your question about ‘why free trade’.

But yes, I don’t really think that more laws do much of anything. It’s really the values that people project onto society that matter.

An interesting related fact: in a recent poll, 85% of people participating in the poll said that they shopped at Walmart but only 35% of those people felt ‘good’ about it, the rest thought that it was bad that anyone, including themselves, shopped there. Truth is sometimes stranger than fiction.

 

[seabird3579]

precious_roy:

Actually, I was answering your question about ‘why free trade’.

But yes, I don’t really think that more laws do much of anything. It’s really the values that people project onto society that matter.

An interesting related fact: in a recent poll, 85% of people participating in the poll said that they shopped at Walmart but only 35% of those people felt ‘good’ about it, the rest thought that it was bad that anyone, including themselves, shopped there. Truth is sometimes stranger than fiction.

That’s pretty sad, precious_roy, I know a lot of people feel kind of trapped. As families they are battling high prices in food, mortgages or rents, utilities, all of it. Everything seems to have tripled in price in the past 5 to 10 years and yet – the ‘experts’ tell us that inflation is low. They tell us the economy is good. They tell us there is less unemployment now than for the last 20 years. The problem is nothing really seems like what they’re telling us, does it to you?

I would be willing to bet that many young moms would like to try making their own kids’ clothing or even trying growing different vegetables in the backyard. They simply lack the skills.

In the old days, when I was in high school (1970s), home economics was still taught in high school. You could learn (at school – imagine that!) how to cook, sew, balance a household budget, care for babies and children, all of it.

Unfortunately, Home Economics is rarely taught anymore these days. But wow, is it ever needed. Well, let me put it this way, it’s needed if we don’t want to be forever “dependent” on other countries and other economies to supply our daily needs.

It sure would be great to see a revival of these time honored skills. Tell me, do they still offer Wood Shop in most high schools these days?

 

[Orionthehunter]

seabird3579:

I specifically criticized a certain kind of corporation, not all corporations. The gospel prescribes how employers are to treat employees, it’s not a personal invention of mine.

I am not a Marxist anymore than you are. Communism does not allow room for God, therefore, it will always fail.

My children would laugh at you, no one is more “traditional” than I am. I am a dinosaur of traditionalism next to any other Catholic in my town, but thanks for the strange perspective…
I may be wrong, but you sound like you have a strong protestant view of the gospel. It does not reflect a Catholic view. In short the Catholic view is that we are our brother’s keeper.

One of my biggest issues with the protestant view is that it tends to be self-centered, particularly the “prosperity gospel” of health and wealth. It seems to be a philosophy of “you give so you can get in return”…not the one Jesus taught that’s for sure.

Jesus taught that we should give without the left hand knowing what the right hand was doing, and, we should lay up our treasure in heaven.

Everything in this world is passing away, all that will be left is the treasure we have layed up in heaven. I don’t know about you but I have a long way to go!

A corporation is a tool of people just as a hammer, gun or computer is just a tool. It is neither moral or immoral. All people are called to conduct their private, public, family, economic, and spiritual life according to the scripture. The actions of a corporation is a reflection of the people making the decisions.

I have a very Catholic view of economics. Everything related to the economy (utilization of capital, labor and intellectual property) is an issue of stewardship- All I have is a gift from God and my use of my gifts is to be a reflection of my gratitude for these gifts. I personally abhor the Joel Osteen philosophy of “give to get”.

I believe that I am my brother’s keeper and it is my responsibility to share my time, talent and treasure to spread the Good News and work for social and economic justice as it is a component of living my faith and performing corporal works of mercy and charity in love for Christ.

I also believe that using the government to be an instrument of doing these things is immoral. When the government does anything it is done at the point of gun (duress) as we have no choice to resist. In such a situation there is no Christian charity but only bondage. Furthermore, I believe that the government can not deliver any good or service with the hand of Christ as the government is only a sterile tool like corporations, guns, hammers, etc.

Corporal works of mercy and charity require the voluntary hand of Christ’s people actively and volunteerly givign their time, talent and treasure.

 

[seabird3579]

seabird3579:

Anyone who has had at least one eye and one ear open in the past 10 years knows that this world is quickly heading to a globalized one world economic plan.

My question for discussion is, does the Church have any teachings in this regard? Are all nations to be treated equally regardless of their say, “human rights” abuses, etc…? Should countries of the world be supporting nations through the purchase of their products, who are notoriously known for, paying slave wages? These issues are on the forefront everyday, does the Church speak with one voice on these matters?

So I guess it does boils down to the age old question that Cain asked God, …“am I my brother’s keeper?”