Should Catholics Support Democracy Anymore?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Semper_Zelare
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
=Semper Zelare;7941412]I want to preface this post, with my frustration at having zero dialogue on questions I posed on 2 threads in the World News section on this forum, about this.
So, here’s a brief version of my argument (which I’ve gotten no feedback on at all yet).
  1. Malta just had a referendum to make divorce legal (though only for couples who have been legally separated for at least 4 years)… and it’s likely to pass into law, as the Prime Minister who opposed making divorce legal said he will follow the will of the people (54% of people voted for it).
  1. The Catholic Church in Malta was firmly against divorce being made legal, even in the circumstances of the bill, and strongly urged people to vote against it. Furthermore, statements from Bishops and Cardinals saying that voting to legalize divorce would destroy the family and family values shows what the Church’s position is.
CONCLUSION:
Out of all the countries where a majority of the population are Catholic, only 1 singular one still has divorce illegal (as the Church wants). So, it would seem that all these other countries are full of unfaithful Catholics that hold personal views contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Church. [They want divorce, whereas Jesus and His Church hate divorce]
MY ARGUMENT IN A NUTSHELL: If divorce is legal in every country on Earth except two, and divorce is evil/sin in the eyes of the Church, then faithful Catholics everywhere are always the minority amongst the majority of the population who vote in governments which pass laws against Christ’s teachings. These Catholics cannot have just laws in a democracy which are morally righteous.
P.S.
I was most struck by divorce only being legal in 3 (soon to be 2 countries on Earth, and 1 being the Vatican). At least a dozen countries still have abortion and contraceptives completely banned and illegal. Everyone loves to fight the good fight when it comes to evils like abortion and contraception, **but the fight against divorce has already been lost.
** Hence, it seems good people have failed to act in the face of bad people everywhere, and the only way they’ll ever defeat divorce is through political avenues other than democracy.
***My dear friend in Christ. It seems paramont to rephrase your question:

Point one*: In the Political arena shoud catholics support democracy.

a. On every issue? or
b. On issues the church opposes?
c. ONLY on issues that are either NOT MORAL issues or Issues opposed to CC Teaching?

I CHOOSE “c”.

Point Two
: Should the CC be a democracy? **

NO!😉 ***Their CAN BE and IS only a SINGLE TRUTH for every issue. On Faith -beliefs and ALL Moral issues that SINGLE truth is entrusted by Gof to His One Catholic Church

Mt. 16:19, Mt. 28:19-20, John 14:16-17, John 17:15-19 and John 20:20-21 prove this claim.

May God continue to Bless and Guide you,
Pat***
 
Isn’t every human endeavor “inherently flawed”? Have you considered the flaws of a constitutional monarchy?

The founding fathers recognized the major problems with democracy [see Federalist 10] and designed the U.S. government to be a republic.
Well, in the context of a Catholic forum I figured that “human beings are inherently flawed” would be a given. But let’s face it, has America’s system of government worked for God or against Him in the long run (regardless of what its technical classification is?) A constitutional monarchy doesn’t involve inquisitions and burning heretics at the stake, isn’t Canada one? People would have certain inalienable rights, part of it would be like the American system, and part of it would be non-negotiable. Why do we bother trying to sway our national laws toward Catholic morality if we believe it’s wrong for them to be Catholic by default?
 
Well, in the context of a Catholic forum I figured that “human beings are inherently flawed” would be a given.
I concur, doctor.
But let’s face it, has America’s system of government worked for God or against Him in the long run (regardless of what its technical classification is?)
Yes let’s - but it really depends on what measure you’re using, doesn’t it? What measure do you propose to use?
A constitutional monarchy doesn’t involve inquisitions and burning heretics at the stake, isn’t Canada one? People would have certain inalienable rights, part of it would be like the American system, and part of it would be non-negotiable. Why do we bother trying to sway our national laws toward Catholic morality if we believe it’s wrong for them to be Catholic by default?
Not inherently, but neither does American republicanism or most other governments I’ve heard of. That usually, but not always, comes later down the road.

Canada is also a parliamentary democracy - the monarch is basically a symbolic figurehead (no offense, commonwealthers!).

The important difference here is evident in your own words. If the laws were created and enforced exactly in line with Catholic dogma and doctrine by default, we would be forcing people to live under false pretenses in order to maintain their lives.

Legislating morality, beyond certain universally accepted maxims (no stealing, no killing, no punching babies) is generally a dangerous and unproductive path, and that’s not really what Jesus is about, if you’ll allow me to refer to the Bible. When his disciples felt a teaching was too hard and left, he let them go, because you can’t make people believe what they don’t want to believe.

On the other hand, trying to sway people’s beliefs is exactly what Jesus is about - that’s the whole point of his ministry and the Church on Earth, isn’t it?
 
… A constitutional monarchy doesn’t involve inquisitions and burning heretics at the stake, isn’t Canada one?
They don’t have inquisitions and burning heretics … yet. They have “hate speech” laws and commissions to punish those whose speech ‘offends’ certain favored groups. [See my post #38.]
People would have certain inalienable rights, part of it would be like the American system, and part of it would be non-negotiable.
Apparently, everything is negotiable in a democracy. [See other threads on homosexual ‘marriage’ for example.]
Why do we bother trying to sway our national laws toward Catholic morality if we believe it’s wrong for them to be Catholic by default?
How did you read that into my comment?
 
They don’t have inquisitions and burning heretics … yet. They have “hate speech” laws and commissions to punish those whose speech ‘offends’ certain favored groups. [See my post #38.]

Apparently, everything is negotiable in a democracy. [See other threads on homosexual ‘marriage’ for example.]

How did you read that into my comment?
I wasn’t insinuating anything upon you, just making a general statement. I don’t really mean the whole of Catholic morality - though we do try to fight gay marriage and abortion and if we win we are kind of twisting the arms of gays and feminists. But my main objection is to a two party system like America’s anyways. It just… IDK I’m nowhere near a politically minded person… but it seems like a good way to doom a government to have it run in a fashion wherein one party does something, the other gets angry and undoes it, and we just cat fight all the live long day. But you’re right, Canada is getting out of hand too. I just wish we could solve these issues in some big way, even if not completely.
 
Here, in so many words briefly summarized and quoted, is Aquinas’ take on democracy.

stmaryvalleybloom.org/aquinas-democracy.html

I am with Aquinas, substituting for “monarch” the term “president.”

Theocracies do not do well. They tend to become spiritually corrupted, as we saw in the Middle Ages.

Democracies also fail from time to time, but the job then is for the Church to bring men’s minds and hearts back to God. If this is accomplished, the damage democracy can do is limited. Thus far our democracy is in peril because our Churches are not effectively staving off the barbarians at the gate. Indeed, we are finding out there are many barbarians who have invaded the Church and claimed it for their own.

As Pope Paul VI complained, the smoke of Satan has entered the Church. Only when that smoke has been expelled will the Church be able to effectively win men’s minds and hearts back to God.
I missed this the first time through, and don’t know why I even felt the need to post, now. You have said it.
 
… but it seems like a good way to doom a government to have it run in a fashion wherein one party does something, the other gets angry and undoes it, and we just cat fight all the live long day. …
But the “cat-fighting” has been going on ever since 1776. One historian explained that our system is designed to battle it out between the two 40-yard-lines.
 
But the “cat-fighting” has been going on ever since 1776. One historian explained that our system is designed to battle it out between the two 40-yard-lines.
I know it has. That’s why I think it wasn’t such a bright idea 😉
 
I want to preface this post, with my frustration at having zero dialogue on questions I posed on 2 threads in the World News section on this forum, about this.

So, here’s a brief version of my argument (which I’ve gotten no feedback on at all yet).
  1. Malta just had a referendum to make divorce legal (though only for couples who have been legally separated for at least 4 years)… and it’s likely to pass into law, as the Prime Minister who opposed making divorce legal said he will follow the will of the people (54% of people voted for it).
  2. The Catholic Church in Malta was firmly against divorce being made legal, even in the circumstances of the bill, and strongly urged people to vote against it. Furthermore, statements from Bishops and Cardinals saying that voting to legalize divorce would destroy the family and family values shows what the Church’s position is.
  3. Malta was one of 2 remaining countries that still has no divorce in their country (other than the Vatican), the other being the Philippines.
  4. Even liberal Catholics on the 2 news threads about this admitted that even though they wanted divorce to be legal, that if other people wanted what the Church wanted, then they’re obligated to lobby for laws which reflect their moral beliefs (and by proxy, the Churches moral beliefs).
CONCLUSION:
Out of all the countries where a majority of the population are Catholic, only 1 singular one still has divorce illegal (as the Church wants). So, it would seem that all these other countries are full of unfaithful Catholics that hold personal views contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Church. [They want divorce, whereas Jesus and His Church hate divorce]

So, it would seem that if Catholics who wanted the laws of their country to reflect their morality, and the teachings of Jesus and the Church, then the only way that would happen is not under a democracy. Democracy is the will of the people, and the will of the majority of the people is contrary to God’s will in every country (except the Vatican, and the Philippines).

MY ARGUMENT IN A NUTSHELL: If divorce is legal in every country on Earth except two, and divorce is evil/sin in the eyes of the Church, then faithful Catholics everywhere are always the minority amongst the majority of the population who vote in governments which pass laws against Christ’s teachings. These Catholics cannot have just laws in a democracy which are morally righteous.

P.S.
I was most struck by divorce only being legal in 3 (soon to be 2 countries on Earth, and 1 being the Vatican). At least a dozen countries still have abortion and contraceptives completely banned and illegal. Everyone loves to fight the good fight when it comes to evils like abortion and contraception, **but the fight against divorce has already been lost.
** Hence, it seems good people have failed to act in the face of bad people everywhere, and the only way they’ll ever defeat divorce is through political avenues other than democracy.
Might I recommend that you consider St. Thomas Aquinas’s view of prostitution? I differ with him on that particular case, but Aquinas argued that prostitution should be legal because making it illegal created greater social evils. Saying that something is a grave sin is not the same as saying that it should be illegal. Whether a given action should be illegal depends on a lot of factors, of which its immorality is the most important but not the only one.

I’m not saying this to advocate liberal divorce legislation, only to say that “losing the fight” may not be as disastrous on this point as you think.

Edwin
 
I know it has. That’s why I think it wasn’t such a bright idea 😉
Well, then you have to ask yourself whether the people should have a say in how they are governed. If your answer is yes, there will always be cat-fighting. When the Nazis got enough representation in the German parliament, they entered, not with the idea of joining the debate, but to put an end to debate. They told the rest how things were going to be.
 
Well, then you have to ask yourself whether the people should have a say in how they are governed. If your answer is yes, there will always be cat-fighting. When the Nazis got enough representation in the German parliament, they entered, not with the idea of joining the debate, but to put an end to debate. They told the rest how things were going to be.
And he Godwin’d the thread. :rotfl:
 
But yeah, you’re right. I just hate to have to say that this is the best we’re going to do. There’s gotta be something we can change… what about a shift more towards whatever Catholic subsidiary values are? I don’t know much about politics, all I know is that I don’t like abortion, gay marriage, poverty, culture wars, oligarchy, lobbyists, pseudo-socialism and big nanny government. Or PETA. 😛 And I lean slightly libertarian.

Am I technically a conservative democrat in my views?

Actually… isn’t what I listed essentially the Catholic position?
 
Theocracy is never a good idea. Yemen, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Mauritania, Oman and Iran are examples of a theocracy. They are islamic states and use Shari’a laws and courts.

Iran for example has religious courts and has religious police to maintain compliance to the letter of islamic law. Most of us in the west find this oppressive. How would a Catholic theocracy be any different?
Well, for one thing, you probably wouldn’t get your head chopped-off if you didn’t convert to Catholicism!
 
But yeah, you’re right. I just hate to have to say that this is the best we’re going to do. There’s gotta be something we can change… what about a shift more towards whatever Catholic subsidiary values are? I don’t know much about politics, all I know is that I don’t like abortion, gay marriage, poverty, culture wars, oligarchy, lobbyists, pseudo-socialism and big nanny government. Or PETA. 😛 And I lean slightly libertarian.

Am I technically a conservative democrat in my views?

Actually… isn’t what I listed essentially the Catholic position?
I don’t even know where to begin telling you how much I disagree with that last statement. I know I dissent from a lot of Catholics I know politically, but if that’s the Catholic position… :eek:

For a peek at what I’m talking about, consider what I’ve quoted below:
Might I recommend that you consider St. Thomas Aquinas’s view of prostitution? I differ with him on that particular case, but Aquinas argued that prostitution should be legal because making it illegal created greater social evils. Saying that something is a grave sin is not the same as saying that it should be illegal. Whether a given action should be illegal depends on a lot of factors, of which its immorality is the most important but not the only one.

I’m not saying this to advocate liberal divorce legislation, only to say that “losing the fight” may not be as disastrous on this point as you think.

Edwin
I hope that helps explain what I mean. I feel very strongly that very little Church energy ought to go into supporting any given legislation. That’s just not the point for me - let individual Catholic citizens enter the political fray as they feel they must, but the Church as a whole is best off, in my humble opinion, if it is seen as a force for spreading love and kindness, and not a political bloc.

Also, big nanny government? What does that even mean?
Well, then you have to ask yourself whether the people should have a say in how they are governed. If your answer is yes, there will always be cat-fighting. When the Nazis got enough representation in the German parliament, they entered, not with the idea of joining the debate, but to put an end to debate. They told the rest how things were going to be.
You should have stuck with cat-fighting. Now we have to leave the room.
 

You should have stuck with cat-fighting. Now we have to leave the room.
Godwin’s Law says in part, “…someone inevitably criticizes some point made in the discussion by comparing it to beliefs held by Hitler and the Nazis.”
I wasn’t criticizing or comparing someone’s point to Hitler and the Nazis; I was pointing out the likely alternative to the inevitable cat-fighting inherent in self government.
 
I’m opposed to any theocracy. They might look good on paper, but in practise, they’re a terrible idea.

For one thing, it’s way too easy to abuse power in a theocracy. Once somebody claims that their rule is from God, there is little room left to argue. For another thing, once the line between church and state falls, the church is easily misblaimed for things the state does. We’ve seen this in history. Many of the atrocities committed by theocracies in the past are pinned on the church itself, because the two were working so closely together. This turns people away from the church, which is bad.

Theocracies never work out well, no matter what religion is backing them.
 
Don’t know if this was mentioned as I didn’t have time to read all four pages but I’m all for the world being submitted to the rule of the Vatican. Is it realistic? No. Is it practical? No. Would it solve all the worlds problems? No. Would it be infinitely better than anything secularized governments can dream of accomplish? Yes. The only downside to it is no one can be forced to accept beliefs, as that is the opposite of what Christ teaches, but if the Vatican controlled the lawmaking processes for every country they could establish just systems of governance that saw everyone treated equally, to the best of their power anyways, and who knows what other wonderful things. But the only way this would come to pass would be if all Catholics everywhere physically took over their countries one by one and the only way that would happen would be through violence so obviously thats a big no no. But maybe after the chastisement the world will come face to face with God and hopefully that will be enough to turn the direction of this world around overnight?
 
I dont know how I missed this thread as this is a favorite subject of mine. Normally I dont comment on old threads but I’ll break my rule for this one.

I think democracy is a terrible idea. Its inherent flaw is that it claims that the force of government is needed to achieve the will of the majority. If most people truly want something then it will happen without government. What democracy really is always is a minority group imposing itself through government on the majority. If you look at many major issues a majority of people stand on the opposite side of the law. How can this be if democracy is as it is claimed to be?

I think economic freedom is far more important than political freedom. The freedom to engage in any economic activity is a far greater freedom than the freedom to vote. Money is far more powerful than a vote. In fact money determines the outcome of any vote. Democracy is just a way to legitimize the will of the rich and powerful. Voting is the true opiate of the masses.

Folks mentioned Aristotle and I think he was right about democracy being the lowest form of government. There is a contemporary writer, Hans-Hermann Hoppe, who has done a lot of work studying and thinking about democracy vs monarchy. His book ‘Democracy: God that Failed’ offers a very thorough analysis of the advantages of monarchy and disadvantages of democracy. He has also written many freely available articles on the subject. If nothing else reading Hoppe offers you a different perspective than the popular idea that democracy should be spread across the globe by the US at the end of a gun.

One thing that should be noted is that all government is always rule by a few people. Even in our democracy the same families have power and the same men rule us often for decades. In all governments the power of the sovereign is contingent upon the submission of the people to that authority. The king or president is only one man. If people under him did not obey he would have no power to do anything. In the case of the monarchy the king is always held in check by his descendant, other nobility, and ultimately the submission of the ruled who greatly outnumber the rulers.

No system is perfect but surely some are better than others. The idea that America is ruled by the average American who cant locate the countries he is at war with on a map seems shockingly stupid to me.
 
I want to preface this post, with my frustration at having zero dialogue on questions I posed on 2 threads in the World News section on this forum, about this.

So, here’s a brief version of my argument (which I’ve gotten no feedback on at all yet).
  1. Malta just had a referendum to make divorce legal (though only for couples who have been legally separated for at least 4 years)… and it’s likely to pass into law, as the Prime Minister who opposed making divorce legal said he will follow the will of the people (54% of people voted for it).
  2. The Catholic Church in Malta was firmly against divorce being made legal, even in the circumstances of the bill, and strongly urged people to vote against it. Furthermore, statements from Bishops and Cardinals saying that voting to legalize divorce would destroy the family and family values shows what the Church’s position is.
  3. Malta was one of 2 remaining countries that still has no divorce in their country (other than the Vatican), the other being the Philippines.
  4. Even liberal Catholics on the 2 news threads about this admitted that even though they wanted divorce to be legal, that if other people wanted what the Church wanted, then they’re obligated to lobby for laws which reflect their moral beliefs (and by proxy, the Churches moral beliefs).
CONCLUSION:
Out of all the countries where a majority of the population are Catholic, only 1 singular one still has divorce illegal (as the Church wants). So, it would seem that all these other countries are full of unfaithful Catholics that hold personal views contrary to the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Church. [They want divorce, whereas Jesus and His Church hate divorce]

So, it would seem that if Catholics who wanted the laws of their country to reflect their morality, and the teachings of Jesus and the Church, then the only way that would happen is not under a democracy. Democracy is the will of the people, and the will of the majority of the people is contrary to God’s will in every country (except the Vatican, and the Philippines).

MY ARGUMENT IN A NUTSHELL: If divorce is legal in every country on Earth except two, and divorce is evil/sin in the eyes of the Church, then faithful Catholics everywhere are always the minority amongst the majority of the population who vote in governments which pass laws against Christ’s teachings. These Catholics cannot have just laws in a democracy which are morally righteous.

P.S.
I was most struck by divorce only being legal in 3 (soon to be 2 countries on Earth, and 1 being the Vatican). At least a dozen countries still have abortion and contraceptives completely banned and illegal. Everyone loves to fight the good fight when it comes to evils like abortion and contraception, but the fight against divorce has already been lost.
Hence, it seems good people have failed to act in the face of bad people everywhere, and the only way they’ll ever defeat divorce is through political avenues other than democracy.
I agree. I’ve often thought that a Catholic Monarchy is the only way. A priest friend of mine that graduated from the Angelicum with a Doctorate’s Degree in Canon Law said something to the effect that the body of law in America was inherited from Europe. This law, which ultimately came from the Catholic Church, is what has sustained us - not Democracy! Of course, this body of law has been eroded over time to the point that anarcy is probably not too far in the future.
 
I think democracy is a terrible idea. Its inherent flaw is that it claims that the force of government is needed to achieve the will of the majority. If most people truly want something then it will happen without government. What democracy really is always is a minority group imposing itself through government on the majority. If you look at many major issues a majority of people stand on the opposite side of the law. How can this be if democracy is as it is claimed to be?
I think you’re running into a problem of loosely-defined terms here. I’ll assume, since it’s not clear otherwise, that you’re referring to a democratic principles in general, and not a democratic republic (such as the present-day United States), or any other specific flavor. I also have to ask what you mean by government here - are you referring to the specific institutions of government as exemplified by a particular country, the concept of government in itself, or something else entirely? Again, I’ll assume the most general principles for now.

That being said, what democracy is claiming to believe is that the will of the majority of the people is what provides the force of government and law - you are claiming the opposite, which may be true in specific cases, but is a perversion of the basic principles.

I agree that in practice vocal minorities tend to dominate the political discussion, the various reasons for which would need a thread or six all on their own.

Without any specific examples to consider, I cannot agree or disagree with your last point here, but it sounds like you’re referring to a specific government which is probably not a true democracy, but rather a watered down version with protections for minority views.
I think economic freedom is far more important than political freedom. The freedom to engage in any economic activity is a far greater freedom than the freedom to vote. Money is far more powerful than a vote. In fact money determines the outcome of any vote. Democracy is just a way to legitimize the will of the rich and powerful. Voting is the true opiate of the masses.
I won’t argue against you holding that opinion, as I think that many economic and political freedoms are intrinsically linked. However, your argument seems to oversimplify the relationship. After all, if a vote can take away economic freedoms (and we know it can), then isn’t that vote just as powerful in a different way?

Money spent in modern US elections does strongly correlate with election results. However, establishing causation here is tricky - one could argue that if the majority of people already side with one candidate over another, then of course that candidate will receive and spend more money since they have a larger pool of supporters. I’m not disagreeing that money has a strong influence on elections - stronger than I would like - but I do think you’re simplifying things too much.
Folks mentioned Aristotle and I think he was right about democracy being the lowest form of government. There is a contemporary writer, Hans-Hermann Hoppe, who has done a lot of work studying and thinking about democracy vs monarchy. His book ‘Democracy: God that Failed’ offers a very thorough analysis of the advantages of monarchy and disadvantages of democracy. He has also written many freely available articles on the subject. If nothing else reading Hoppe offers you a different perspective than the popular idea that democracy should be spread across the globe by the US at the end of a gun.
Firstly, somebody misquoted Aristotle, who actually was fairly supportive of democracy as being less evil than other forms of government. It seemed likely they were actually trying to quote Winston Churchill, whose quote, in its completeness and context also clearly supported democracy.

Also, the source you’re pointing to in favor of monarchy is a self-described “Austrian school economist and libertarian/anarcho-capitalist philosopher.” That puts him firmly outside of any consensus view on any issue. I’m not saying that to make an argument against him necessarily, but any support for his views warrants due consideration.

As for US policy…that is also a story for another thread.
One thing that should be noted is that all government is always rule by a few people. Even in our democracy the same families have power and the same men rule us often for decades. In all governments the power of the sovereign is contingent upon the submission of the people to that authority. The king or president is only one man. If people under him did not obey he would have no power to do anything. In the case of the monarchy the king is always held in check by his descendant, other nobility, and ultimately the submission of the ruled who greatly outnumber the rulers.

No system is perfect but surely some are better than others. The idea that America is ruled by the average American who cant locate the countries he is at war with on a map seems shockingly stupid to me.
Human society is, by nature it would appear, oligarchic. That there will always be more Indians than Chiefs is impossible to argue. However, I don’t like the apples to oranges comparison of a president to a king, as it seems misleading. Why do you state that there are checks on a king’s power (admittedly often lost in the casual understanding of monarchy) but fail to state that a president has perhaps a third of a king’s power (being executive without legislative or judicial authority), and then for a very limited time only as opposed to life?

I don’t think any reasonable person claims that the average American has significant individual political power or awareness, but surely in 10,000 years of human history we have achieved something?

EDIT: Fixed spelling.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top