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cmforte
Guest
So you’re saying that if the Jews didn’t have their own State everyone living today (especially Catholics) would suddenly turn anti-Semite and persecute them? I take issue with that.
Should Catholics support Israel, Palestine, or take a neutral stance?
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GEddie
Guest
No, he did not say that. Given the relatively small number of Jews in the European/Muslim/ex-Soviet orbits (compared to everybody else), mass persecution can happen without anything close to everyone being involved.
Zionism did not begin because Judaism wanted to reclaim it’s historical square mileage so determinedly that it sought to push others aside. It began because Judaism had been so sustainedly persecuted that it’s leaders saw a Jewish homeland as the only way out. Early Zionist leaders were not even fixated on Palestine as the site of that homeland.
Human beings have not changed. The dirt floor of the human psyche remains the same.
ICXC NIKA
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Only the technology has changed. Now we commit mass murder from a disconnected distance. Makes it easier to swallow the evening meal.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
You would think most would aspire at least to this goal. Apparently not so. Unfortunate in many ways this time period is no different than any other.
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AbideWithMe
Guest
Jharek,
I’m thinking he/she simply means that he/she believes the old promise “I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you” is still in place…as I do. That need not be nationalism or the even worse thing you’re implying.
I’m thinking he/she simply means that he/she believes the old promise “I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you” is still in place…as I do. That need not be nationalism or the even worse thing you’re implying.
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AbideWithMe
Guest
Yes.
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Hesychios
Guest
Well said.
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AbideWithMe
Guest
Jharek–
While I don’t want to speak for chosen people, I think there is likely a gap between his/her posts and your interpretation of them. In other words, maybe you’re reading motivations—such as “attempts to play the guilt card with regards Catholics en masse”—that aren’t necessarily there.
It goes without saying that it’s hard to fully understand what may cause someone to say something unless you’ve been in their shoes. I do sometimes see the complaint that Jews are playing the guilt card, and I can understand how it may seem that way to some people. But, it’s hard to comprehend the sense of vulnerability and insecurity in regards to survival that can come from such a history as the Jews’. It’s not a matter of Jews being indoctrinated to have a victim mentality, or to manipulatively use the “guilt card” to get their way. It’s something quite different than that, but not easy to explain with mere words.
While I don’t want to speak for chosen people, I think there is likely a gap between his/her posts and your interpretation of them. In other words, maybe you’re reading motivations—such as “attempts to play the guilt card with regards Catholics en masse”—that aren’t necessarily there.
It goes without saying that it’s hard to fully understand what may cause someone to say something unless you’ve been in their shoes. I do sometimes see the complaint that Jews are playing the guilt card, and I can understand how it may seem that way to some people. But, it’s hard to comprehend the sense of vulnerability and insecurity in regards to survival that can come from such a history as the Jews’. It’s not a matter of Jews being indoctrinated to have a victim mentality, or to manipulatively use the “guilt card” to get their way. It’s something quite different than that, but not easy to explain with mere words.
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AbideWithMe
Guest
Who here is advocating for the idea that other lands exist to serve Israel?
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sedonaman
Guest
I used to be neutral WRT this issue until one day I looked at a map of the region and concluded that Muslims were completely unreasonable. Take a look at it below. Islamic lands are in green; but for some reason, they can’t live without a little sliver of land with no oil under it. Not long ago, the pope advised them to “accept history” and move on. Why don’t the Islamic countries take in the Palestinians like America takes in almost as many immigrants each year?
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Roy5
Guest
There is plenty of blame to go around, but read The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy and/or They Dare to Speak Out to help balance the media in this country, which is excessively pro-Israel. We simply don’t get a correct picture. My daughter was overseas for two years and reported that the media in other countries is much more objective.
**
Sadly, Israeli intransgience and arrogance has been at the root of much of the Arab hatred of the US.** We have been in a position for years to force a fair settlement, but all of our efforts have been partial to Israel. We have provided them billions of taxpayer dollars every year, given them advanced military equipment, and backed them at the UN by veto after veto. This partiality on our part was a very important factor in the outrageous attack on 9-11 and other terrorist activities.
**
Now Israel is eager for us to attack Iran.** They played a key role in getting us into Iraq, which was a disaster in precious and innocent blood lost and additional huge indebtedness - plus dividing Americans who were united after 9-11. I don’t think Obama will yield to Israeli pressure, though I fear that Gingrich or Santorum could. As for Romney? A question mark. Ron Paul talks a lot of nonsense but he is right when it comes to keeping out of some of these squabbles overseas. Now Israel wants us to become involved in Syria. I’ve read that the Christians in Syria favor Assad because they have received a fair shake under him. We seem to overlook that Al Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood also are against Assad. I’m not for or against Assad, and why should I be? It’s a matter to be handled by the Syrians and not our military.
**
Enough now, but there’s so much more.** True friends of Israel will insist that she stop building more and more settlements on the West Bank - a first step and a sign of serious intent on Israel’s part. Until Israel does that it surely appears as though she plans to gobble up the entire West Bank while talking about a two-state solution. Hypocrisy extraordinaire.
**
Sadly, Israeli intransgience and arrogance has been at the root of much of the Arab hatred of the US.** We have been in a position for years to force a fair settlement, but all of our efforts have been partial to Israel. We have provided them billions of taxpayer dollars every year, given them advanced military equipment, and backed them at the UN by veto after veto. This partiality on our part was a very important factor in the outrageous attack on 9-11 and other terrorist activities.
**
Now Israel is eager for us to attack Iran.** They played a key role in getting us into Iraq, which was a disaster in precious and innocent blood lost and additional huge indebtedness - plus dividing Americans who were united after 9-11. I don’t think Obama will yield to Israeli pressure, though I fear that Gingrich or Santorum could. As for Romney? A question mark. Ron Paul talks a lot of nonsense but he is right when it comes to keeping out of some of these squabbles overseas. Now Israel wants us to become involved in Syria. I’ve read that the Christians in Syria favor Assad because they have received a fair shake under him. We seem to overlook that Al Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood also are against Assad. I’m not for or against Assad, and why should I be? It’s a matter to be handled by the Syrians and not our military.
**
Enough now, but there’s so much more.** True friends of Israel will insist that she stop building more and more settlements on the West Bank - a first step and a sign of serious intent on Israel’s part. Until Israel does that it surely appears as though she plans to gobble up the entire West Bank while talking about a two-state solution. Hypocrisy extraordinaire.
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**Unfortunately, most Americans have been fed a very biased and bigoted view** on this entire situation. Read those two books mentioned earlier and look into the publication *Link*. I once was solidly pro-Israel until I became acquainted with both sides.
**God bless Israel and the Palestinians** - and may peace and justice come to them and all our war-weary world.
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sedonaman
Guest
Have you ever heard of the saying, “If the Jews didn’t exist, we would have to invent them.”?
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AbideWithMe
Guest
Roy–
You wrote, “I was once solidly pro-Israel until I became acquainted with both sides.” It’s true that almost inevitably issues concerning conflicts will become more complex and messier when we listen to both sides. I’ve made considerable effort to listen to people speaking from both the Jewish side and the Palestian Christian side. To a lesser extent I’ve tried to hear from the non Christian Palestians, whether Muslim or secular. And, it is a complicated mess.
But, I’m still solidly pro-Israel. You seem to be implying that is naive or uninformed, but I can assure you that I’m neither.
As no doubt you know, the Israel Lobby book was highly controversial. It’s generated plenty of criticism from various other academics and writers (including writers and academics who aren’t particularly pro-Israel), as well as a mixture of agreement and criticism from others. Have much effort have you made to hear from other sources? Have you put a considerable amount of your attention into trying to listen to numerous sources with first hand familiarity with the situation in Israel?*
I want to be very clear that I’m not turning a blind eye to the reality that Israel has sometimes acted unjustly. In the Bible, Israel is repeatedly admonished that when they are settled once again in the land that they must not callously oppress the non-Jews among them “because you know what it’s like to be aliens in Egypt.” I agree that Israel has sometimes forgotten this very important command from God. But, still I support Israel in her need to have a defensible homeland for the Jews.
Peace.
Edit—*I don’t mean to be saying that you need to put alot of effort into listening to sources from all sides on this issue. There nothing wrong with saying one doesn’t know enough to say anything. What I am questioning, though, is your rather dogmatic assertions that you’ve bolded in your post. Are you genuinely that thoroughly well-informed, after spending much time on this subject, so that you can make the statements you’ve bolded?
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GEddie
Guest
I’ve been there, have heard limitedly from both sides, and am still pro-Israel.
Every nation has injustices in it’s history, which cannot always be corrected. The blockade has made matters grievous on the Arab side. But the way to get a blockade eased is not by firing rockets over it.
ICXC NIKA
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Roy5
Guest
Abidewithme
** I follow Mideast events very closely. I have been to Israel four times and also spent time in Jordan, Egypt, Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco. We get the pro-Israel slant regularly in the media. Three of the four major networks are owned by strong pro-Israel people. Here in this area, when the newspaper cautiously questioned Sharon’s invasion of Lebanon as it approached Beirut 20 years ago, the rabbi claimed that merchants of his congregation alone could bankrupt that paper. Never a critical word of Israel on its pages since.
**
Both parties are under the control of avid pro-Israel leadership, and those who know better don’t dare contest them. Remember how Fulbright, Percy, Findlay and others who dared take issue with Israel were targeted and defeated. Something like 50% of all monies contributed to the major parties comes from people with a special attachment to Israel.
** I understand the intensity of Israeli feeling because of Jewish history**. We are in a position to approach the issue more objectively. I had hoped that Obama would be more balanced, but I’m sure his advisers have warned him not to. For one thing, huge amounts of money flow from strong pro-Israel sources. Think of Adelson and Gingrich. On the other hand, more and more Jews, in Israel and here in America, have become troubled by the arrogance and the policies of Netanyahu.
** I feel sometimes that it’s a waste of my time to try to bring some balance to this whole subject here on CAF**. There is occasional anti-Semitism, true, but I am a true friend of Israel. It is my Holy Land. I want it to survive. But I fear that its aggressive intransigience could doom it. Evangelicals seldom worry as they see the emergence of modern Israel as a sign that Christ soon will return, armies attacking Israel will be destroyed by the forces of righteousness, the remaining Jews will be converted, and Jesus will reign from Jerusalem for 1000 years! I become annoyed when the Bible is so misused by decent but tragically misled people.
** My constant refrain. Read, read, read both sides**. I began to do that after Israel invaded Egypt in 1956, when I was a student and very pro-Israel. Gradually I learned the truth, which is neither the Israeli version nor the pan-Arab version. America could have avoided much of this Near East mess if we had taken a firm position with the two contending parties. The radicals in both camps work together to endanger Israel and create terrorists.
** I follow Mideast events very closely. I have been to Israel four times and also spent time in Jordan, Egypt, Tunisia, Algeria and Morocco. We get the pro-Israel slant regularly in the media. Three of the four major networks are owned by strong pro-Israel people. Here in this area, when the newspaper cautiously questioned Sharon’s invasion of Lebanon as it approached Beirut 20 years ago, the rabbi claimed that merchants of his congregation alone could bankrupt that paper. Never a critical word of Israel on its pages since.
**
Both parties are under the control of avid pro-Israel leadership, and those who know better don’t dare contest them. Remember how Fulbright, Percy, Findlay and others who dared take issue with Israel were targeted and defeated. Something like 50% of all monies contributed to the major parties comes from people with a special attachment to Israel.
** I understand the intensity of Israeli feeling because of Jewish history**. We are in a position to approach the issue more objectively. I had hoped that Obama would be more balanced, but I’m sure his advisers have warned him not to. For one thing, huge amounts of money flow from strong pro-Israel sources. Think of Adelson and Gingrich. On the other hand, more and more Jews, in Israel and here in America, have become troubled by the arrogance and the policies of Netanyahu.
** I feel sometimes that it’s a waste of my time to try to bring some balance to this whole subject here on CAF**. There is occasional anti-Semitism, true, but I am a true friend of Israel. It is my Holy Land. I want it to survive. But I fear that its aggressive intransigience could doom it. Evangelicals seldom worry as they see the emergence of modern Israel as a sign that Christ soon will return, armies attacking Israel will be destroyed by the forces of righteousness, the remaining Jews will be converted, and Jesus will reign from Jerusalem for 1000 years! I become annoyed when the Bible is so misused by decent but tragically misled people.
** My constant refrain. Read, read, read both sides**. I began to do that after Israel invaded Egypt in 1956, when I was a student and very pro-Israel. Gradually I learned the truth, which is neither the Israeli version nor the pan-Arab version. America could have avoided much of this Near East mess if we had taken a firm position with the two contending parties. The radicals in both camps work together to endanger Israel and create terrorists.
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AbideWithMe
Guest
Okay, Roy, I respect your experience and interest in this area. It sounds like you’ve had an interesting life.
I fully agree that “The radicals in both camps work together to endanger Israel and create terrorists.” Not only that, by the plain old mundane failure to “do unto others as you would have them do unto you” may be a cause of much harm, though less spectacular than terrorism. Unfortunately sometimes that golden rule has been replaced by “do wrong to others as wrong has been done to you.” With all her history of being oppressed and massacred as aliens, Israel should never forget the repeated command of God: “Do not oppress an alien, for you yourselves know how it feels to be aliens because you were aliens in Egypt.”
Nevertheless, I’m going to have to disagree with you on some of your statements, though I’m not interested in continuing to argue about this. I have read alot from various sides. And though I’ve never gotten to visit Israel, I’ve had some Orthodox Jewish friends who moved there from New York, as well as secular, very justice -oriented Jewish friends who spent alot of time in Israel, and various relatives who visited for shorter time periods. I’m not just hearing things through media sources.
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trdchubi
Guest
On spiritual grounds, I stand for Israel for the simple reason that I believe in God. I find myself at odds of being termed as a philo-semite but I really consider myself first and foremost Pro-God who believe in His every words. I’m not even a fundamentalist Christian.
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Every single Superpower was against the Jewish Nation. As far as I know America is the only Superpower who stands with the Jews. For the love of America why would anyone desire this for the USA, unless Patriotic Americans wants the USA on this list of cursed?
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The reason we should support Israel is sheer common sense, something that is beyond the grasp of “intellectuals” and “humanitarians” who questions God’s intellect.
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Every single Superpower was against the Jewish Nation. As far as I know America is the only Superpower who stands with the Jews. For the love of America why would anyone desire this for the USA, unless Patriotic Americans wants the USA on this list of cursed?
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The reason we should support Israel is sheer common sense, something that is beyond the grasp of “intellectuals” and “humanitarians” who questions God’s intellect.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
About what it comes down to. An everlasting covenant till the end of time.
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Eric_Hilbert
Guest
Thanks to all,
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Thread closed
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