Should Catholics who use contraception remain in the Church?

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I why can’t I speak about grace, it’s present in the sacraments, and those receiving unworthy do not recieve grace, scripture says that those who recieve unworthy the body and blood.

Being sick and choosing to sin are two different matters, if you say we never will be healed then you are taking the body and blood unworthy by denying the power of God, you say that God can’t make a man whole, you are judging God, I am judging man.

Do you believe in Christ, did he not heal, did he not say twice go and sin no more or else something worse may happen to you?

Please explain this wounded nature you talk about, it’s sounds like rationalization to do your own will, do you know what your agreeing to when you take communion?

There is a teaching that all can be healed if they are H.O.W. Honesty, Openmindedness, Willingness.

Saint Augustine said a prayer, make me clean put not yet Lord.

Back to the hospital analogy, if you don’t obey the doctor’s take your medicine and get rest, then sure you may have a lifetime illness, But Jesus gave us a prescription for our unwholeness, our spiritual sickness, our sin.

Think about it, do you believe you are God?

Is your reasoning about that of Jesus?

What is sanctification, Holyness, Purity, Chasity, Goodness, Righteousness, if not sinlessness.

Seek truth, not opinion.
 
Originally Posted by blackst
It’s not believe that it’s a grave sin, but knowledge that it’s a grave sin
Jermosh said:
No thats actually not correct.

**1860 **Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.
vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s1c1a8.htm

It is in fact up to their conscience, which means they must believe it to be a grave sin. Add to this other stresses they may have in a marriage can add pressure and further diminish culpabilty.
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We get the cathecism from the bible no?

Here’s what jesus taught, who do you say he is?

Are you still so dull. Jesus speaking, But the things that come out of the mouth come frome the heart, and these make a man unclean. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultry, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.

WE used to pray, but I haven’t heard it for a while, I confess to you my brothers and sisters that i have sinned through my own fault, in what i have done and failed to do. In my thoughts and in my words. Do you remember this?

Knowledge is not belief, you can believe in anything, it dosn’t make it true, there are not 10 suggestion’s or 7 deadly sins if you believe they are wrong, we don’t write are own morality, or else your protestant.

Where do you get it’s up to a person’s conscience, which is a person own choice of what’s right or wrong.

1849 Sin is an offense against reason, truth, and right conscience; it is failure in genuine love for God and neighbor caused by a perverse attachment to certain goods. It wounds the nature of man and injures human solidarity. It has been defined as “an utterance, a deed, or a desire contrary to the eternal law” (St. Augustine, Contra Faustum 22: PL 42, 418; St. Thomas Aquinas, STh I-II, 71, 6).

Conscience is to be formed, not by our own reasoning but by the, i’ll let the cathechism speak.

1785 in the formation of conscience the word of God is the light for our path, we must assimilate it in faith, an prayer and put it into pratice before the Lord’s cross. we are assissted by the gifts of the Holy Spirit, aided by the witness or adivce of others and
guided by the authoritative teaching of the Church.

Is your conscience upright and moral or debased?

Return to your conscience , question it, turn inward, brethren, and in everything you do see God as your witness.

How do you know your consciece is truthful, do you believe every opinion, will you only believe once you suffered from the results of your choice, and can you see the truth that sin leads to death?
 
For most couples the cure is when the wife goes through menopause. Or, the husband gets a vasectomy after their family is complete. Then they don’t have to deal with this issue again.
 
In my church most people don’t discuss birth control. It seems to be taboo. I suspect most use contraception, although the parish is dominated by older people. Most of them have smaller families and probably used birth control, I suspect. I would never ask, of course.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackst
I why can’t I speak about grace, it’s present in the sacraments, and those receiving unworthy do not recieve grace, scripture says that those who recieve unworthy the body and blood.

Speak about grace all you want, but you have no right to determine who is in a state of grace. Only God can judge.

If have you read the scripture, Jesus, who do you say he is? Said Treat them like a gentile or a Tax collector if they don’t listen to you, if that’s not judging I don’t know what is, Jesus said he would send the Holy Spirit who would reveal all truth, this is how I can judge, Jesus said not, not judge he said you would be judged by the same measure thta you judge, he who says he dosn’t judge is a liar, for non-judgement is a judgement that there is no right or wrong that all things are permissable.

Being sick and choosing to sin are two different matters,

Of course, but they are analogous. You also assume people who are artifically contracepting are “choosing to sin”. I believe that assumption is an error in many cases. The simply don’t believe it to be sinful. Lack of a fully formed conscience

If it’s an undeveloped conscience then why are we in school for at least 12 years and don’t have a conscience, you are suggesting that conscience is a matter of opinion, to pick and choose, that’s there’s no ablolute truth. Belief is not what makes truth, testing and trial and history and revelation and, belief is not the foundation for truth or everyone is living the truth for they believe in what they are choosing to do.

if you say we never will be healed then you are taking the body and blood unworthy by denying the power of God,

I never said that. I am healed each time I receive the sacrament of reconciliation. Still I sin, even though I may not want to. Even St. Paul was aware of this when he asked God “why do I do that which I shouldn’t and not that which I should?” Rom. 7:15

Healing is being whole, correct, sinfullness is not wholeness.

you say that God can’t make a man whole,

No, I never said anything of the kind. You misunderstand.

Is God limited, no, he has all ability to make man whole what do you think Gods limitations are?

you are judging God,

Nonsense, I am judging no one. I simply am pointing out man’s sinful nature. Are you perfect?

Do you or don’t you share in the divinity of Christ, was Christ perfect?

I am judging man.

Well on that point we certainly agree. You sure are. You don’t have the right.

As pointed out earlier We do Judge each other, you are judging me by saying I don’t have the right to judge!

Do you believe in Christ, did he not heal, did he not say twice go and sin no more or else something worse may happen to you?

Yes to all those. Did you stop sinning the first time you went to confession? If so you are the first human since the Assumption to remain sin free.

If we are told we can never be sin free, then why would we stop sinning going to confession, why go to confession, we can’t stop according to you and some priest’s

Please explain this wounded nature you talk about, it’s sounds like rationalization to do your own will,

It is called “original sin”, which has the effect of giving us each an “inclination towards evil” (CCC Section 403).

Inclination, yes but not action, unless we are possessed we have the free we to choose the truth if we are told the truth, and someone demonstrates the truth.

do you know what your agreeing to when you take communion?

I certainly do. However, would it be a sin for someone who didn’t to take communion if they were practicing artificial contraception under the mistaken belief that the Church’s teaching on this point is subject to change and need not be adhered to as an infallible teaching?
 
There is a teaching that all can be healed if they are H.O.W. Honesty, Openmindedness, Willingness.

Sure, its called “contrition and repentance”. However, it is not possible to be contrite or repent of something that you sincerely but mistaken believe is not “wrong”.

Belief does not make truth, otherwise we could be believe their was no wrong, and so we could do anything we want until we meet someone who believed there was no truth either and then there would be consequences.

Saint Augustine said a prayer, make me clean put not yet Lord.

You didn’t comment on that!

Back to the hospital analogy, if you don’t obey the doctor’s take your medicine and get rest, then sure you may have a lifetime illness, But Jesus gave us a prescription for our unwholeness, our spiritual sickness, our sin.

. . . and for some people, nay I would go so far as to say “most” people, it takes time for the medicine to have an effect, the medicine here being the WORD. We don’t become perfect overnight and stopping taking the medicine (leaving the church) is a sure formula for eternal death.

But if you have an illness that is being treated in the hospital, you don’t disobey the things the doctor tells you to do, you obey, you don’t say to the doctor my conscience said not to do xyz, M y conscience is not yet formed so I’m going to do what I want.

Think about it, do you believe you are God?

Certainly not, do you believe you are?

Is your reasoning about that of Jesus?

I have no idea what that means. Please rephrase.

What is sanctification, Holyness, Purity, Chasity, Goodness, Righteousness, if not sinlessness.

It is the desire and effort to avoid sin. No one is sinless. NO ONE. Of course in your case I am tempted to say that your “rightousness”, no make that “self rightousness” may in fact be the opposite of “sinlessness”.

You certainly are not claiming to be “sinless” are you? Because if you are totally sinless, maybe I am wrong about you having standing to judge the state of other people’s souls. By the way, nice to meet you Jesus Christ.
 
You are comparing apples and oranges. People who stumble and do one of the sins above is a little different than someone, for example, who is taking the pill with the intent of continuing to do so while at the same time confessing (knowing they will continue which technically would not be a good confession anyway) and receiving the Eucharist. Or someone who opts for sterilization planning on a one-time confession. There is a difference.

That being said I think this is a huge struggle for young Catholics and, I for one, humbly do not have the answer.
 
There is a teaching that all can be healed if they are H.O.W. Honesty, Openmindedness, Willingness.

Sure, its called “contrition and repentance”. However, it is not possible to be contrite or repent of something that you sincerely but mistaken believe is not “wrong”.

Belief does not make truth, otherwise we could be believe their was no wrong, and so we could do anything we want until we meet someone who believed there was no truth either and then there would be consequences.

Saint Augustine said a prayer, make me clean put not yet Lord.

You didn’t comment on that!

Back to the hospital analogy, if you don’t obey the doctor’s take your medicine and get rest, then sure you may have a lifetime illness, But Jesus gave us a prescription for our unwholeness, our spiritual sickness, our sin.

. . . and for some people, nay I would go so far as to say “most” people, it takes time for the medicine to have an effect, the medicine here being the WORD. We don’t become perfect overnight and stopping taking the medicine (leaving the church) is a sure formula for eternal death.

But if you have an illness that is being treated in the hospital, you don’t disobey the things the doctor tells you to do, you obey, you don’t say to the doctor my conscience said not to do xyz, M y conscience is not yet formed so I’m going to do what I want.

Think about it, do you believe you are God?

Certainly not, do you believe you are?

The reason I ask if you think you are God is you said the following.

You have no standing to determine who no longer is “covered by grace”.

How do you know that I have no determination of who is covered by grace, you have no standing to tell me that I can’t determine unless you are God.

Is your reasoning about that of Jesus?

I have no idea what that means. Please rephrase.

Do you have the mind of christ? Is that easier?

What is sanctification, Holyness, Purity, Chasity, Goodness, Righteousness, if not sinlessness.

It is the desire and effort to avoid sin. No one is sinless. NO ONE. Of course in your case I am tempted to say that your “rightousness”, no make that “self rightousness” may in fact be the opposite of “sinlessness”.

That’s saying that we have a desire or effort obey God but we can’t NO ONE as you stated said this. If no one is sinless, then why teach a truth, why is thier a Church, why did Jesus sacrifice himself, why do priest’s pray mass everyday? He who is without sin cast the first stone, how can a Priest tell others how to live, casting a stone, and not be sinless, Jesus said to take the plank out of our own eye so we could see the speck in a brother’s eye, why take the speck out if no one is speckless.

You certainly are not claiming to be “sinless” are you? Because if you are totally sinless, maybe I am wrong about you having standing to judge the state of other people’s souls. By the way, nice to meet you Jesus Christ.

I’m not telling you something that your conscience should be telling you, for if I tell you i’m righteous you will say I’m self righteous, if I say I’m a sinner then you will say I have no authority, let me tell you this, if what has happened in my life had happened on yours you would have repented a long time ago, should we go on sinning so grace may incrase NOOOOOOOOOO!!! BE Holy for I am holy, No one who is a child of God sins.
 
blackst said:
There is a teaching that all can be healed if they are H.O.W. Honesty, Openmindedness, Willingness.

Sure, its called “contrition and repentance”. However, it is not possible to be contrite or repent of something that you sincerely but mistaken believe is not “wrong”.

Belief does not make truth, otherwise we could be believe their was no wrong, and so we could do anything we want until we meet someone who believed there was no truth either and then there would be consequences.

Saint Augustine said a prayer, make me clean put not yet Lord.

You didn’t comment on that!

Back to the hospital analogy, if you don’t obey the doctor’s take your medicine and get rest, then sure you may have a lifetime illness, But Jesus gave us a prescription for our unwholeness, our spiritual sickness, our sin.

. . . and for some people, nay I would go so far as to say “most” people, it takes time for the medicine to have an effect, the medicine here being the WORD. We don’t become perfect overnight and stopping taking the medicine (leaving the church) is a sure formula for eternal death.

But if you have an illness that is being treated in the hospital, you don’t disobey the things the doctor tells you to do, you obey, you don’t say to the doctor my conscience said not to do xyz, M y conscience is not yet formed so I’m going to do what I want.

Think about it, do you believe you are God?

Certainly not, do you believe you are?

The reason I ask if you think you are God is you said the following.

You have no standing to determine who no longer is “covered by grace”.

How do you know that I have no determination of who is covered by grace, you have no standing to tell me that I can’t determine unless you are God.

Is your reasoning about that of Jesus?

I have no idea what that means. Please rephrase.

Do you have the mind of christ? Is that easier?

What is sanctification, Holyness, Purity, Chasity, Goodness, Righteousness, if not sinlessness.

It is the desire and effort to avoid sin. No one is sinless. NO ONE. Of course in your case I am tempted to say that your “rightousness”, no make that “self rightousness” may in fact be the opposite of “sinlessness”.

That’s saying that we have a desire or effort obey God but we can’t NO ONE as you stated said this. If no one is sinless, then why teach a truth, why is thier a Church, why did Jesus sacrifice himself, why do priest’s pray mass everyday? He who is without sin cast the first stone, how can a Priest tell others how to live, casting a stone, and not be sinless, Jesus said to take the plank out of our own eye so we could see the speck in a brother’s eye, why take the speck out if no one is speckless.

You certainly are not claiming to be “sinless” are you? Because if you are totally sinless, maybe I am wrong about you having standing to judge the state of other people’s souls. By the way, nice to meet you Jesus Christ.

I’m not telling you something that your conscience should be telling you, for if I tell you i’m righteous you will say I’m self righteous, if I say I’m a sinner then you will say I have no authority, let me tell you this, if what has happened in my life had happened on yours you would have repented a long time ago, should we go on sinning so grace may incrase NOOOOOOOOOO!!! BE Holy for I am holy, No one who is a child of God sins.
(name removed by moderator);4999222:
Right back attcha big guy.
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Its impossible to know what your comments are and what the quotes are. Can you stop all these colour fonts and organise your responses into something readable please?
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This is truly good to read and possibly to be explored lots more !

As times change fast and even dark warnings of how things could get drastically diffrent, the interdependance on families with the church / parish as the larger family set up that bring families together for more support in all areas may be the silver lining .

The recent readings on Moses interceding on behalf of the people (who were worshipping the molten calf , in his absence - how symbolic of our own times with its idolatrous, unnatural appetites and in search of something that is missing !) ; can we not almost see that little chuckle on the Father’s face who KNEW all along what Moses was going to do and had to use the occasion only to show us unbelivieng children what The TRUE MOSES and Father would be doing in the future on our behalf and what each one of us is also to do !

May be more parish family nights where all members can come together - for a good and intense time of learning more of The Word , adoration ( the latter with use of incense - who knows if all that holy smoke and incense of prayer could set right the pheromones so that the fallen woman nature who excessilvly yearn for the husband at certain times could be more free ! ) shared meals (and less T.V !), more sharing - learning from each other !

And the older couples could look back with gratitude at the victories won for all the times when the temple was protected , for the glory of God !

Servant of God Pope John Paul 11, pray for us !
 
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