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HelenRose
Guest
I love being musician. Only a musician can truly appreciate that scenario.
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RosalieM
Guest
We have a choir loft but it’s only used for a hymn or two at Christmas, then we proceed back down to the side of the sanctuary in tiers (not tears). Yes, there’s fidgeting and water bottles before mass and one of the men (forgive me) is a real distraction whose mouth keeps falling open, he looks in all the wrong places during mass and at one time was only a couple feet away from the priest! 
But what can ya do? That’s “the way things are”. I tried to see if we could be in the loft (quotes from rubrics). Went over like a lead balloon with the monsignor. So I’m resigned.
But what can ya do? That’s “the way things are”. I tried to see if we could be in the loft (quotes from rubrics). Went over like a lead balloon with the monsignor. So I’m resigned.
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SeekerJen
Guest
Yep. Every Pentecost, our fifth-graders chant “Veni Creator Spiritus” from the choir loft, and spend the entire Mass up there. It’s sweet and funny when the priest says, for example, “The Lord be with you”, the congregation responds “and also with you”, and the 5th graders also respond, very exuberantly and about a full beat behind everyone else, due to sound delay.I think that’s why only a capella or non-organ-accompanied music is done in our choir loft.
I can remember some truly awful experiences in our then new church, prior to some expensive sound improvements. The Psalmists at the ambo were evidently hearing the accompaniment and the choir a full beat or so behind the actual time. A good psalmist would watch the choir director and sing according to his/her direction and more or less ignore what what was heard. …but most of our psalmists could not quite handle the delay. It was obvious that the congregation had no idea whether to sing with the choir or to sing with the psalmist.I love being musician. Only a musician can truly appreciate that scenario.
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Joe_Kelley
Guest
We worry now whether we need a ramp so someone in a wheel chair could be a lector. {There is already access through the Chapel or through the choir area, but some think more direct access is required.] We were unable to have a second story on the office building, because that would require an elevator. I suppose that if we had a choir loft that would require an elevator.
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Pious_Mat
Guest
There was a Great article about this on the New Liturgical Movement blog not too long ago. Those of you who don’t read it really ought to–they’re the go-to people for all things liturgical.
That aside, believe it or not, many ancient (and famous) European Churches have no choir lofts, because the choir loft is actually a post-Trent innovation. Traditionally, all-male scholas sang the Mass, and were situated in the sanctuary. This meant that they weren’t just singing, but rather taking part in carrying out a liturgical office. The operatic styles that dominated the Baroque period required a much richer range, and thus the inclusion of female voices. Since women could not carry out a liturgical office (and in the EF still do not), the choir was moved out of the sanctuary, and the choir loft was born.
During the first half of the 20th Century, there was an effort to revive the old custom, and put a schola in the sanctuary. Pius X and Pius XII both endorsed such a move. However, it failed miserably, and after the Council, music continued to drift further away from being a liturgical office and deeper into the realm of a pleasant embellishment.
That said, I think choir loft or sanctuary are the two best options, as they give the music more liturgical dignity.
That aside, believe it or not, many ancient (and famous) European Churches have no choir lofts, because the choir loft is actually a post-Trent innovation. Traditionally, all-male scholas sang the Mass, and were situated in the sanctuary. This meant that they weren’t just singing, but rather taking part in carrying out a liturgical office. The operatic styles that dominated the Baroque period required a much richer range, and thus the inclusion of female voices. Since women could not carry out a liturgical office (and in the EF still do not), the choir was moved out of the sanctuary, and the choir loft was born.
During the first half of the 20th Century, there was an effort to revive the old custom, and put a schola in the sanctuary. Pius X and Pius XII both endorsed such a move. However, it failed miserably, and after the Council, music continued to drift further away from being a liturgical office and deeper into the realm of a pleasant embellishment.
That said, I think choir loft or sanctuary are the two best options, as they give the music more liturgical dignity.
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Joe_Kelley
Guest
A couple of churches built in Massachusetts in the 60’s had the choir behind a screen behind the altar. That worked fairly well. It put the choir near the altar but out of sight.
We had one problem in a renovated church where they moved the organ console with the choir but left the pipes in the old loft. The organist played at what sounded like the same volume to him, but now the congregation was between him and the pipes. They were shell shocked till we got him tuned down.
We had one problem in a renovated church where they moved the organ console with the choir but left the pipes in the old loft. The organist played at what sounded like the same volume to him, but now the congregation was between him and the pipes. They were shell shocked till we got him tuned down.
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pnewton
Guest
We considered adding a loft in our last renovation. The ADA requirements made it impossibly costly. I prefer to be up close to the altar. Where we are now, we are no nearer than those on the opposite side who sit there, so I don’t worry that we are put on the spot like performers. One great benefit I have is that I can react to our priest’s changes concerning things like singing the Our Father or speaking it. Also, we only have 4-6 members and two are active in other areas and sometimes have to serve another role.
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idrum677
Guest
On a both a musical and liturgical level, I prefer the loft. As a musician, I am a performer at heart, but in the context of the Mass, I’d rather let Jeses be the center of attention and use music to glorify Him.
For many of the special Masses we have other musicians. Believe me, between tuning and switching music and equiptment, Its much better from the loft. Its a bit cramped at times, but better that way then be the focus in the sanctuary.
For many of the special Masses we have other musicians. Believe me, between tuning and switching music and equiptment, Its much better from the loft. Its a bit cramped at times, but better that way then be the focus in the sanctuary.
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Katie1723
Guest
The church I attend once a month in Virginia, has the choir to the left of the altar and slightly above the body of the church.
They are small but mighty.
Kathy
They are small but mighty.
Kathy
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mercygate
Guest
As a High Church Episcopalian, I sang for many years in a vested chancel choir. Lemme tell ya: NO water bottles. NO confused flipping of pages. NO scratching of heads. NO sidebar conversations. We stood, bowed, knelt and sat in unison. Our hymnals were marked before Mass and our extra music was neatly tucked into a leather cover. We picked it up before standing to sing the offertory anthem.
In my Catholic church, the musicians swill their water, pick at their instruments between “sets” and generally act as if they were invisible although they are up front in plain sight. They refused to wear choir robes. Very motley. Sigh.
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idrum677
Guest
You make it sound like we’re playing at a nightclub. I’m not condoning blatent disrespectful behavior, but there are some instances where you can’t have everything perfectly in order.
The most important thing that happens during Mass is the Holy Sacrafice. You can’t be fully participating if you’re paying attention to the swilling.
Lemme tell ya: As a timpanist (and choir member) it is impossible for me to just sit. My instrument by its nature requires tuning adjustments between and sometimes during each piece, as well as the use of different mallets. I can’t sit still.
I also sing at Mass and sometimes move from my drums to the bass section. Granted its not far, but i’d rather be out of sight doing it. As a singer, I need water at times or my voice is affected. Sorry if you think I’m a heathen.
We hire outside musicians for special occasions. They are not parishoners but paid professionals. Some are not Catholic, however they are all very respectful. I don’t expect them to participate fully in the Mass.
You’re not always going to have a professional string quartet or wind players as part of the parish. I offer my services because I am a parishoner and yes, I sit, stand, bow, kneel along with the congregation and the rest of the choir.
Music is my way of giving my time/talent/treasure back to God and it si for a lot of other people as well. No wonder we can’t get volunteers for choir if their every action is scrutinized.
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mercygate
Guest
Yeah. You pretty much CAN have things ‘perfectly in order’ if you work at it.
Stuff and botheration. You can’t be paying attention to the sacrifice if you are swilling.
TIMPANISTS are excused!
As long as you are not swilling, of course.Frankly, I think people exaggerate their “need” for water. Lick your lips and swallow. I sang in vested choirs for years without ever being unable to last the 2 hours or so without water. We once caught the temperature at 103 degrees. And no swilling. Call it penance.
I also find that our visiting paid professionals conduct themselves – professionally. I expect that. It is part of the contract.
It wouldn’t be scrutinized if they were not in the line of sight. Moreover, if they are in the line of sight, they invite scrutiny – as mentioned in my earlier post, comportment was given great attention when I was singing in a chancel choir. BECAUSE what is seen contributes to or detracts from the atmosphere of worship. And BECAUSE I spent so many years DOING it – and training others to do it – I notice things others do not – even while being fully attentive to the Holy Sacrifice. Others may not be able to put their finger on WHAT makes the difference, but when they go to a place like Trinity Church Wall Street or St. Thomas Fifth Avenue or the Church of the Advent in Boston, they SWOON because everything is so beautiful. What they do not recognize is that excruciating attention to detail (including not swilling) and precision of movement is essential to the effect. In order for the congregation to enter into the worshipful atmosphere of the service, those participating directly in the liturgy are operating with the skill of a precision drill team, the Rockettes, or the Blue Angels.
ANY parish could have that. But few want to submit themselves to the discipoline
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idrum677
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:banghead: too much for me…I’ll just keep swilling.
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NewUlm1976_2000
Guest
No, first of all not all church buildings allow this. Second, they can be heard down below better. It all comes down to the local choir and local traditions and building design.
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brotherhrolf
Guest
In 1965, my cathedral was one of the first to be renovated to accomodate Vatican II. Out went a perfectly good choir loft and a perfectly good organ. The organ was replaced by what we in the choir affectionately called the “Hoover” (an electronic organ with the latest technology - transistors!). We were placed to the side of the nave and sang towards the opposite side. The “Hoover” short circuited during a choir members wedding and had to be put out by fire extinguisher in 1987.
So then we went to a Clavinova synthesizer with an amplified speaker (great for practice but not for Mass), a wooden portativ organ constructed by our organist, a harpsichord (lovely but couldn’t be heard at the back of the church), and finally a baby grand …with the choir facing the back of the cathedral. Do you have any idea how hard it is to keep a straight face when the papal knights fall asleep at Midnight Mass and their faithful ladies elbow them to wake them up?
In 1992 the wheel was reinvented and a new choir loft and new organ were installed. We do not need microphones. Accompanying instruments (strings, woodwinds, etc) are clearly heard on the altar without amplification even at pianissimo levels and we are not at the center of attention I wouldn’t trade it for the world.
So then we went to a Clavinova synthesizer with an amplified speaker (great for practice but not for Mass), a wooden portativ organ constructed by our organist, a harpsichord (lovely but couldn’t be heard at the back of the church), and finally a baby grand …with the choir facing the back of the cathedral. Do you have any idea how hard it is to keep a straight face when the papal knights fall asleep at Midnight Mass and their faithful ladies elbow them to wake them up?
In 1992 the wheel was reinvented and a new choir loft and new organ were installed. We do not need microphones. Accompanying instruments (strings, woodwinds, etc) are clearly heard on the altar without amplification even at pianissimo levels and we are not at the center of attention I wouldn’t trade it for the world.
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idrum677
Guest
Its all cyclicle. The fads in liturgy all had their place and time. Its ironic now that many churches are bringing back more traditional practices,(latin, tabernacles back to center, music).
They are actually going to restore the pipe organ at our cathedral as well, using the organ from my former parish which was closed. It’s a c.1900 Hook and Hastings. Now if the cathedral would just move the tabernacle back and get it out of the closet they keep it in, we would have real progress.
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mercygate
Guest
One of the best things about the rear-end choir loft with most of the organ pipes up there with you is that the sound projects forward and sort of “drapes” itself over the nave. It’s also great for chant because of the ethereality of the chant is emphasized by its apparent emanation from disembodied voices from on high . . .
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edam95
Guest
I’m not sure if this is the place to post thisbut,I’m confused because my mom has been in a choir for years,standing in the front of the church on the right in front of the pews, the priest always stands on the left. Her choir has been told by a new priest they have to stand in the back or upstairs (they are all 60 or above) because people couldn’t see the altar.I’m confused because they’ve been in the front for 35 years or more.They sit when music isn’t being played and I miss the sound of the choir. None of them wanted to change so now there’s no choir. I think music brings so much to the whole service. Anyway, my argument to the priest was that if I was blind I could still worship and I wouldn’t have to see the altar and that those who sit in the back won’t see it anyway. His answer was “thankfully we aren’t blind”,and he wouldn’t budge. What is truly the “rule” for the choir and where they should stand? Does my mom have a chance for the choir to go back in the front?
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Br.Rich_SFO
Guest
Generally the choir has never been in the sanctuary, that is generally a protestant idea. Most protestant services are built around music/choir and preaching. The Mass is not a performance, Music enhances the Mass but Mass can go on without the music. A choir area should be provided at the side (outside of the sanctuary area) on maybe there is a choir loft that has not been used for some time, that is specifically made to enhance and project the sound of the choir.
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