Should Christians embrace evolution ?

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Certainly the world was created in six 24hr days and is only thousands and not millions or billions of years old and no Pope has or can undermine Scripture and Tradition
Twinc, I am fascinated with how you would answer scientists who have been “contaminated” with scientific view that the universe is billions of years old. Would you tell them that virtually all scientists are just plain wrong, and that only the “scientists” of the Kolbe Center are trustworthy?

StAnastasia
 
Wrong. All of them praised Evolution and Creation equally. Do not take them individually, take them as a whole. I praise God and Science because God created Science. You cannot speak for the Heavenly Father. A divinely intelligent and loving being that is above all would not be so unsophisticated as you would like to believe.
Hi, MariaTS -

I just didn’t see where all five sentences praised Evolution and Creation equally. Here, I see what is called evolution is part of Creation. Creation and all in it are the creature, and only the Creator is praiseworthy, imho.
Yes, when God effected His Creation, it included/includes data which we call knowledge; and that body of knowledge has been under investigation and that investigation we call science. Only, that investigation has far from uncovered all the data and there is much we do not know. Good scientists keep that in mind and are humble and not pushy. It’s the pushy scientists that irritate me.
I can speak about the Heavenly Father because I try to please Him. I think He’s not as sophisticated as you would like to think.

Ummm. I really don’t like quarreling. We’re picking at each other. I just think Christians should put the Christ Jesus first, and everything else, including Science, second. It’s not easy to do. But, the spiritual rewards are worth it.
 
Donsnow, do you have any evidence to support these extraordinary claims about Darwin?
Hi, StAnastasia -

Yes: google.com/search?q=charles+darwin+naturalist&hl=en&client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=MFF&sa=X&tbs=tl:1&tbo=u&ei=VUcUS4SEDdHvlAe1maixAg&oi=timeline_result&ct=title&resnum=11&ved=0CDcQ5wIwCg

That link shows he was born 1809 and sailed on the HMS Beagle during 1831, at age of 22. OK, I was off by two years.

Well, StA, I was looking for the Wikipedia entry that stated his parents put him in med school, which he dropped out of and then put him in seminary, which he dropped out of after being recruited by a professor of Biology who agreed with Uniformtarianism evolution. Said professor, said the article, arranged with Capt. of Beagle for Darwin to sail with him as an unpaid naturalist. Those are the sparse facts in Wikipedia. The rest is my reading between the lines. Also, imho, why Darwin rocketed to the front of the then debate between Uniformtarian and Catastrophic evolutions, was, he had a better press. He was PR, imho, for Uniformtarian evolution in that debate and the press at that time ran with him. I also think that the Captain of the Beagle ‘orientated’ Darwin about the details to look for on the islands. I just see the human side of the facts, that’s all.
😊 (In some trepidation of your expected response to my interpretation of the facts)
 
(In some trepidation of your expected response to my interpretation of the facts)
Donsnow, thank you for your post. We do differ in our interpretation of Darwin’s life and work. If you are interested, there is a superb two-volume biography of Darwin by Janet Baker:

Charles Darwin: A Biography, Vol. 1 - Voyaging
Charles Darwin: A Biography, Vol. 2 - The Power of Place

StAnastasia
 

So, how far do we take this ? What principles should govern the use of that type of objection so that it works as an intelligent argument ?​

So arguments from the example of Jesus have to be used with care, if they are not to be absurd. That Jesus had nothing to say about Australia, does not make Australia unfit for mention by all later generations of his followers. And the same applies to evolution; for if it is a fact, then it is a fact, as much so as Australia, even though - on the evidence available - Jesus was as silent about Australia as about evolution.
You distorted my argument and ignored the premise: evolutionism is a cosmogeny and as such leaves the domain of the natural sciences and trespasses into philosophy and theology. Your version of evolutionism changes revelation which is forbidden.

Jesus upholds Moses and Genesis and you know this. But modernists in order to pursue their own perverse wills and doctrines subscribe to evolutionism as a means for introducing evolving dogmas:

St. Pius X thunders against them in *Pascendi Dominici Gregis *with this prophetic exhortation:
  1. To finish with this whole question of faith and its shoots, it remains to be seen, Venerable Brethren, what the Modernists have to say about their development. First of all they lay down the general principle that in a living religion everything is subject to change, and must change, and in this way they pass to what may be said to be, among the chief of their doctrines, that of Evolution. To the laws of evolution everything is subject - dogma, Church, worship, the Books we revere as sacred, even faith itself, and the penalty of disobedience is death. The enunciation of this principle will not astonish anybody who bears in mind what the Modernists have had to say about each of these subjects. Having laid down this law of evolution, the Modernists themselves teach us how it works out. And first with regard to faith. The primitive form of faith, they tell us, was rudimentary and common to all men alike, for it had its origin in human nature and human life. Vital evolution brought with it progress, not by the accretion of new and purely adventitious forms from without, but by an increasing penetration of the religious sentiment in the conscience.
The modernist also flippantly shoves our Blessed Redeemer Jesus Christ to the side and attempts to deconstruct Genesis on his own philosophical terms. Jesus upholds Mosaic authorship and St. Basil the Great in his glorious Hexameron makes this the primary consideration when treating Genesis: Moses spoke with God ‘face to face.’

Do not attempt to steal St. Thomas Aquinas in support of your errors, modernists. It is the Angelic Doctor who tells us in Summa:
“Christ’s human intellect is enriched with the fullness of infused knowledge. For, by reason of the hypostatic union, the human faculties of our Lord are as perfect as such faculties can possibly be; and to have infused knowledge is a perfection of the human mind. By divinely infused knowledge, Christ as a man knows all that any or all human minds can learn by the rational power (for instance, Christ perfectly knows all human sciences); he also knows all revealed truths, and all truths made known to the human mind by the gifts of the Holy Spirit and the gratuitous graces.”
Your absurd arguments do not address the thesis. Jesus, the God-man, reveals the Father to the world. His knowledge is perfect, even about science as St. Thomas demonstrates above. If evolutionism, which changes revelation and destroys dogmas were really true, Jesus would have revealed it to us. But our Blessed Redeemer knows nothing of multiple Adams evolving over millions of years through processes of death, disease, mutations and extinctions. He teaches that the words of Moses cannot fail, not a single jot or tittle.

“If the light that is in you is darkness, how great then is that darkness!”
 
This subject would not get the time and effort it gets here and elsewhere if there was no practical benefit. The litmus test in the United States today is atheism. If it does not conform to the anti-theist principle, it will wind up in court. The so-called Scopes Monkey Trial and the recent trial in Dover over Intelligent Design. The removal of references to God in public schools.

The false comparisons between mathematics and gravity with human origins are indeed ludicrous but they must be made. The consistency of the message must be preserved, but the argument is a very old one. The way to tell it is the same is to look at the desired result. Only the words have changed to make the old package appear “new,” it is not.

Billboard: Praise Darwin. Evolve beyond belief.
Bus sign: Man created God.

Recent actions of the ACLU to remove religious monuments from buildings where they have stood for decades.

There is a statue of Moses with the Ten Commandments near the top of the Supreme Court building.

Consider this: a stable, God-fearing country is bad for business. Instability creates problems that people pay money to fix. Living your Catholic faith daily takes money out of the hands of strip club owners, pornographers and cable and satellite TV operators.

I am not proposing forcing anyone to be Catholic but I lived in a Catholic community that, at one time, lived out its faith. And no, it was not perfect, but it was restrained and loving and committed to faith.

Peace,
Ed
 
This subject would not get the time and effort it gets here and elsewhere if there was no practical benefit.
If It gets attention because people disagree over how this should influence public policy.
The litmus test in the United States today is atheism. If it does not conform to the anti-theist principle, it will wind up in court. The so-called Scopes Monkey Trial and the recent trial in Dover over Intelligent Design. The removal of references to God in public schools.
Because the education won’t favor one religion, it’s anti-theism?
The false comparisons between mathematics and gravity with human origins are indeed ludicrous but they must be made. The consistency of the message must be preserved, but the argument is a very old one. The way to tell it is the same is to look at the desired result. Only the words have changed to make the old package appear “new,” it is not.
You call them ludicrous, yet I’ve yet to see you successfully discredit them.
Billboard: Praise Darwin. Evolve beyond belief.
Bus sign: Man created God.
I’m tired of refuting this argument. You have yet to even pretend to mount a rebuttal.
Recent actions of the ACLU to remove religious monuments from buildings where they have stood for decades.
There is a statue of Moses with the Ten Commandments near the top of the Supreme Court building.
Would you mind if Hindu symbols became commonplace in government buildings?
Consider this: a stable, God-fearing country is bad for business.
False.
Instability creates problems that people pay money to fix. Living your Catholic faith daily takes money out of the hands of strip club owners, pornographers and cable and satellite TV operators.
And the money would go elsewhere.
  • these things popped up in response to demand.
I am not proposing forcing anyone to be Catholic but I lived in a Catholic community that, at one time, lived out its faith. And no, it was not perfect, but it was restrained and loving and committed to faith.
Peace,
Ed
That’s nice
 
Because the education won’t favor one religion, it’s anti-theism?
It already does. Evolutionism (the cosmogeny, not the unproven natural science theory) is promulgated at tax payer expense without any toleration of dissenting views even though just 39% of Americans believe in evolution.

Indoctrination in the state sponsored cosmogeny is tantamount to the establishment of religion, at least as the ACLU defines it.
 
Indoctrination in the state sponsored cosmogeny is tantamount to the establishment of religion, at least as the ACLU defines it.
Strange how little they know!
 
IIndoctrination in the state sponsored cosmogeny is tantamount to the establishment of religion, at least as the ACLU defines it.
CatholicJohnny, you don’t spell or use the word correctly, so I wonder whether you actually know what “cosmogony” means.
 
It already does. Evolutionism (the cosmogeny, not the unproven natural science theory) is promulgated at tax payer expense without any toleration of dissenting views even though just 39% of Americans believe in evolution.

Indoctrination in the state sponsored cosmogeny is tantamount to the establishment of religion, at least as the ACLU defines it.
“Cosmogony, or cosmogeny, is any theory concerning the coming into existence or origin of the universe, or about how reality came to be.”

Care to find a version of evolution that contains the origin of the universe?
 
“Cosmogony, or cosmogeny, is any theory concerning the coming into existence or origin of the universe, or about how reality came to be.”

Care to find a version of evolution that contains the origin of the universe?
Is that a serious question? Care to find one that doesn’t postulate big bangism, primordial slime-ism, or molecules-to-man sophistry?
 
Is that a serious question? Care to find one that doesn’t postulate big bangism, primordial slime-ism, or molecules-to-man sophistry?
You’re conflating the theory of evolution by descent with modification from a common ancestor with the theory of abiogenesis. These are different theories.
 
You’re conflating the theory of evolution by descent with modification from a common ancestor with the theory of abiogenesis. These are different theories.
I am standing with Moses, Christ Jesus, the Apostles, the Fathers, the Doctors, the Magisterium, and the great Papal Enclyclicals that treated modernism and evolutionism from 1864-1958. While I appreciate your ability to delineate between different theories of evolution, I stand with the aforementioned company in rejection of them all in favor of special creation.
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Romans 1
 
Is that a serious question? Care to find one that doesn’t postulate big bangism, primordial slime-ism, or molecules-to-man sophistry?
Sure.

“In biology, evolution is change in the genetic material of a population of organisms from one generation to the next. Though changes produced in any one generation are normally small, differences accumulate with each generation and can, over time, cause substantial changes in the population, a process that can result in the emergence of new species.[1] The similarities among species suggest that all known species are descended from a common ancestor (or ancestral gene pool) through this process of gradual divergence”

No origin of the universe in there. (primordial soup business would not constitute cosmogony)
 
Sure.

“In biology, evolution is change in the genetic material of a population of organisms from one generation to the next. Though changes produced in any one generation are normally small, differences accumulate with each generation and can, over time, cause substantial changes in the population, a process that can result in the emergence of new species.[1] The similarities among species suggest that all known species are descended from a common ancestor (or ancestral gene pool) through this process of gradual divergence”

No origin of the universe in there. (primordial soup business would not constitute cosmogony)
Now we know that the “kind” protects itself from mutations that would go outside of variation within the kind.
 
Donsnow, thank you for your post. We do differ in our interpretation of Darwin’s life and work. If you are interested, there is a superb two-volume biography of Darwin by Janet Baker:

Charles Darwin: A Biography, Vol. 1 - Voyaging
Charles Darwin: A Biography, Vol. 2 - The Power of Place

StAnastasia
Ah, StAnastasia -

You are gallant! 🙂 So, we are again agreed to disagree. Bless your heart.
 
I have been mostly lurking in this thread and really do not find anything compelling to take me one way or the other.

I believe that God created everything, that man was made by God in His image, and that sin and death entered though Adam and Eve.

Now can either side tell me how their belief (either in evolution or not) affects this?
 
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