Should Christians embrace evolution ?

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Hi, Cruciform -

Gee, in 1949, our **First Grade **teacher told us that evolution said we were descended from monkeys, for real she did (and no science classes in that First Grade, at all; and they say that evolutionists don’t proslytize).
Now, who am I supposed to believe?? :rolleyes:
I guess you don’t realise that theories are often simplified for kids? :rolleyes:

Oh and you didn’t come form an ape, you ARE an ape. This is a biological FACT, those that think otherwise are just clueless about science.
 
Reality

The facts are that for mankind from hominids, the specimens are either fully human, fully animal or fake, and there have been many fakes by those without integrity.

rtforum.org/lt/lt63.html:
It is interesting that Msgr McCarthy traces the deception that has characterised the evolutionist path through Walt Brown, In the Beginning: Compelling Evidence for Creation and the Flood, 1995. He cites: “Ramapithecus”, “Australopithecines”, “Pithecanthropus erectus” (“Java man”), "Piltdown man”, “Sinanthropus” (“Peking man”), “Neanderthal man”,

“The ape-men of biology classes in the 1940s have hung on in the popular imagination, even though they have been discarded in the scientific world.”
 
Gee, in 1949, our First Grade teacher told us that evolution said we were descended from monkeys, for real she did (and no science classes in that First Grade, at all; and they say that evolutionists don’t proslytize).
Now, who am I supposed to believe?? :rolleyes:
Here’s hoping that you’re eventually able to move beyond a 1st-grade articulation of science, and further educate yourself regarding what evolutionary science actually maintains. Here’s a good place to begin:
Francisco J. Ayala, Darwin and Intelligent Design (Fortress Press, 2006); ISBN 0-8006-3802-6

Brian & Deborah Charlesworth, EVOLUTION: A Very Short Introduction (Oxford U. Press, 2003); ISBN 0-19-280251-8

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
 
The facts are that for mankind from hominids, the specimens are either fully human, fully animal or fake, and there have been many fakes by those without integrity.
Unfortunately, this is simply nonsense. I recommend a careful reading of the following text written by a more-than-qualified professional paleontologist:
Donald R. Prothero, EVOLUTION: What the Fossils say and Why It Matters (Columbia U. Press, 2007); ISBN 978-0-231-13962-5

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
 
Unfortunately, this is simply nonsense. I recommend a careful reading of the following text written by a more-than-qualified professional paleontologist:
Donald R. Prothero, EVOLUTION: What the Fossils say and Why It Matters (Columbia U. Press, 2007); ISBN 978-0-231-13962-5

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
It doesn’t matter to the average person. It does, however, matter a great deal primarily to the anti-theists who post here. Textbook evolution is the secular creation story. The one that excludes God. Catholics cannot accept this story at face value. It must include causal action by God. That is missing from the textbook, if something similar to evolution did, in fact, occur.

Peace,
Ed
 
I guess you don’t realise that theories are often simplified for kids? :rolleyes:

Oh and you didn’t come form an ape, you ARE an ape. This is a biological FACT, those that think otherwise are just clueless about science.
Poor Saint Paul.
39All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 1 Cor. 15
And I guess Adam didn’t get it, either.
26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and ***over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

Poor David was clueless as well.
4 What is man that You are mindful of him,
And the son of man that You visit him?
5 For You have made him a little lower than the angels,**(“http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm 8&version=NKJV#fen-NKJV-14018b”)]
And You have crowned him with glory and honor.

6 You have made him to have dominion over the works of Your hands;
***You have put all things under his feet,
7 All sheep and oxen—
Even the beasts of the field,
*** 8 The birds of the air,
And the fish of the sea
That pass through the paths of the seas. Psalm 8
Catholic Ape Johnny
 
Reality on Fossils
**
“2. Weaknesses of the Darwinian Theory.** Just to mention a few of the weaknesses of the Darwinian theory of evolution treated by Denton in his 1986 book Evolution: A Theory In Crisis], consider the following: a) the total absence of transitional forms in the fossil record (prescinding from a handful of exhibits that are all suspect of fraud or misinterpretation)….”

This theory (as to what are today’s processes) has, however, been tested by Guy Berthault, a French experimenter in sedimentology. He first conducted personal experiments on microstrata. The results of these experiments were published by the French Academy of Sciences. Subsequently he directed experiments on stratification at the University of Colorado in the United States. The report on these latter experiments was published in the Journal of the Geological Society of France in 1993.

The experiments reveal that the sediments washed into the oceans are sorted out by water currents into strata of different-sized particles. The strata do not form successively one on top of the other but sideways upstream to downstream. Where the water current varies, a series of strata can form simultaneously. In these conditions it is not possible to ascertain whether the higher strata are younger than the lower ones, nor whether fossils found in different strata, or in different parts of the same strata, are of the same age. These results leave the fossil record without a chronology and the evolution theory without support from geology and paleontology. A visual explanation of the experiments is contained in an updated version of the video, Evolution: Fact or Belief?
[My underlining].
rtforum.org/lt/lt79.html

A few more scientific realists:

On being asked why he had not included any examples of transitional forms in his book Evolution, Dr Colin Patterson [a leading paleontologist at the British Museum of Natural History], replied: “If I knew of any, fossil or living, I would certainly have included them.”(1979). [Quoted in *Darwin’s Enigma, 1984, p 89, Luther D Sunderland, Master Books].

Ronald West: “Contrary to what most scientists write, the fossil record does not support the Darwinian theory of evolution.”

D. S. Woodruff : “fossil species remain unchanged throughout most of their history and the record fails to contain a single example of a significant transition.”

Niles Eldridge: “paleontologists have been insisting that their record is consistent with slow, steady, gradual evolution where I think that privately they’ve known for over a hundred years that such is not the case.”

Steven M. Stanley : “Once established, an average species of animal or plant will not change … (to) a new species, even after surviving for something like a hundred thousand, or a million, or even ten million generations.”
[LT100 - The Myth of Evolution]](LT100 - The Myth of Evolution])
 
This theory (as to what are today’s processes) has, however, been tested by Guy Berthault, a French experimenter in sedimentology. He first conducted personal experiments on microstrata. The results of these experiments were published by the French Academy of Sciences. Subsequently he directed experiments on stratification at the University of Colorado in the United States. The report on these latter experiments was published in the Journal of the Geological Society of France in 1993.

The experiments reveal that the sediments washed into the oceans are sorted out by water currents into strata of different-sized particles. The strata do not form successively one on top of the other but sideways upstream to downstream. Where the water current varies, a series of strata can form simultaneously. In these conditions it is not possible to ascertain whether the higher strata are younger than the lower ones, nor whether fossils found in different strata, or in different parts of the same strata, are of the same age. These results leave the fossil record without a chronology and the evolution theory without support from geology and paleontology.
Berthault is a crank:

evolutionpages.com/berthault_critique.htm


As for your Monsignor McCarthy, he is ignorant, dishonest and vicious (see, for example, his slander of Teilhard).

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
Reality on Fossils
**
“2. Weaknesses of the Darwinian Theory.** Just to mention a few of the weaknesses of the Darwinian theory of evolution treated by Denton in his 1986 book Evolution: A Theory In Crisis], consider the following: a) the total absence of transitional forms in the fossil record (prescinding from a handful of exhibits that are all suspect of fraud or misinterpretation)….”
Why do you copy stuff from lying creationist sites? You have already been told that Denton later changed his mind because of the large number of transitional fossils.
This theory (as to what are today’s processes) has, however, been tested by Guy Berthault, a French experimenter in sedimentology.
Berthault did some interesting experiments that showed how some strata formed quickly in some circumstances. His mistake was to take those results and apply them to all strata in all cases. In that extension he was profoundly wrong. This is another case of a creationist website lying to you.
A few more scientific realists:
On being asked why he had not included any examples of transitional forms in his book Evolution, Dr Colin Patterson [a leading paleontologist at the British Museum of Natural History], replied: “If I knew of any, fossil or living, I would certainly have included them.”(1979). [Quoted in *Darwin’s Enigma
, 1984, p 89, Luther D Sunderland, Master Books].
I too can quote Dr Patterson:“In several animal and plant groups, enough fossils are known to bridge the wide gaps between existing types. In mammals, for example, the gap between horses, asses and zebras (genus Equus) and their closest living relatives, the rhinoceroses and tapirs, is filled by an extensive series of fossils extending back sixty-million years to a small animal, Hyracotherium, which can only be distinguished from the rhinoceros-tapir group by one or two horse-like details of the skull. There are many other examples of fossil ‘missing links’, such as Archaeopteryx, the Jurassic bird which links birds with dinosaurs (Fig. 45), and Ichthyostega, the late Devonian amphibian which links land vertebrates and the extinct choanate (having internal nostrils) fishes. . .”

Dr Colin Patterson, “Evolution” p131-133
Again you are being lied to by your creationist sources. Are you prepared to follow the very same authority you are quoting and also support evolution?
D. S. Woodruff : “fossil species remain unchanged throughout most of their history and the record fails to contain a single example of a significant transition.”
Again you are being lied to. Don’t you get tired of listening to people who tell you lies? Here is the quote in context:“Darwin and most subsequent authors including G. G. Simpson have held that most evolutionary transitions occur within established lineages by phyletic gradualism guided by natural selection. But fossil species remain unchanged thoughout most of their history and the record fails to contain a single example of a significant transition. Similarly, it is difficult to account for the greatly accelerated pace of evolution during periods of adaptive radiation. An alternative model of evolution, that of punctuated equilibria, introduced by Niles Eldredge and Stephen Jay Gould in the early 1970s, more fully accounts for these same observations.”
This is yet one more quote from the discussion about gradual evolution and punctuated equilibrium evolution. You are being lied to, Dr Woodruff supports evolution. Dr Woodruff says that the new model of evolution “fully accounts for these same observations”. This is your own authority, the one you are quoting to us and are expecting us to follow. Are you prepared to follow the very same authority you are quoting and also support evolution?
Niles Eldridge
Simple incompetence here. Dr Eldredge’s name has been misspelled by your source. Incompetent as well as liars. It also shows that this website does not bother to check back that its quotes are correct. Lazy, incompetent liars. You really know how to pick impressive sources.
“paleontologists have been insisting that their record is consistent with slow, steady, gradual evolution where I think that privately they’ve known for over a hundred years that such is not the case.”
This is yet another quote from the discussion about gradual evolution and punctuated equilibrium evolution. You are being lied to, Dr Eldredge supports evolution. Are you prepared to follow the very same authority you are quoting and also support evolution?

It is pointless quoting scientists who support evolution in your attempt to support creationism. Your quotes are about as convincing as an atheist quoting the Bible: “There is no God”.

As an aside I would say that you seem to have little faith in creationist authorities. You have only quoted one, Dr Bertault, and even there you emphasised his scientific credentials rather then his creationist credentials. You are implicitly acknowledging the superiority of science here yet you are refusing to accept the results of science. No wonder creationism is such a strange beast.

rossum
 
It doesn’t matter to the average person. It does, however, matter a great deal primarily to the anti-theists who post here. Textbook evolution is the secular creation story. The one that excludes God. Catholics cannot accept this story at face value. It must include causal action by God. That is missing from the textbook, if something similar to evolution did, in fact, occur.
You have, then, given a careful reading to Prothero’s book…?

Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
+T+
 
I guess you don’t realise that theories are often simplified for kids? :rolleyes:

Oh and you didn’t come form an ape, you ARE an ape. This is a biological FACT, those that think otherwise are just clueless about science.
Hi, Albert,

I respectfully submit two things:

One, what you call a biological fact, instead really stands only as an interpretation of the data in our limited knowledge.

Two, whatever you call me and my family, we have the right to freely choose to allow our God to make us in His image. Which changes us from the mold of this world (your alleged ape) to reform ourselves like unto Christ. You, sir, may call yourself an ape. But that doesn’t give you the right to accuse others of being your opinion, which is based upon an interpretation of the data, not a fact.
 
I guess you don’t realise that theories are often simplified for kids? :rolleyes:

Oh and you didn’t come form an ape, you ARE an ape. This is a biological FACT, those that think otherwise are just clueless about science.
I would prefer not to be clueless about science especially the biological fact that I am an ape. Please provide the research paper which proves this fact. Thank you.
 
Hi, Albert,

I respectfully submit two things:

One, what you call a biological fact, instead really stands only as an interpretation of the data in our limited knowledge.

Two, whatever you call me and my family, we have the right to freely choose to allow our God to make us in His image. Which changes us from the mold of this world (your alleged ape) to reform ourselves like unto Christ. You, sir, may call yourself an ape. But that doesn’t give you the right to accuse others of being your opinion, which is based upon an interpretation of the data, not a fact.
:rolleyes: You don’t even know what an ape is do you? Ok lets settle this on your terms, please classify an ape. 😛
 
:rolleyes: You don’t even know what an ape is do you? Ok lets settle this on your terms, please classify an ape. 😛
Hi, Albert -

Sir, I’m operating with your definition of ape.

Why won’t you address my claim to exercise my freedom of choice by letting my God make me in His, and not in an ape’s, image? That’s my stand, on this. ie, people have the choices of being an ape, or in the image of our mutual Creator.
 
Only to simpletons 😉 :rolleyes:.
Wouldn’t you say most six year olds could be called simpleton, compared to you and other college educated people? Or, compared to any adult of any education?

Okedoke, I’ll be back tomorrow. Gonna check another thread and shut it down.
G’night all. Pleasant dreams :).
 
Berthault is a crank:

evolutionpages.com/berthault_critique.htm


As for your Monsignor McCarthy, he is ignorant, dishonest and vicious (see, for example, his slander of Teilhard).

Alec
evolutionpages.com
Typical. When a scientist dissents on the basis of empirical evidence (Berthault’s experiments which disprove uniformitarian geology) then he is a crank. When a Monsignor criticizes the works of Teilhard which are under the Papal monitum and whom John XXIII called ‘dangerous’, then the Monsignor is vicious.

This is instructive, fellow Catholics. For you see that when the modernist is overtaken by truth and compelling evidence, he will respond with ad hominem attacks upon the sources of evidence.
 
#567 hecd2
As for your Monsignor McCarthy, he is ignorant, dishonest and vicious (see, for example, his slander of Teilhard).
This is offensive and without any substance whatever concerning Msgr John F McCarthy.

But that’s what results when some are confronted by reality – as William James so aptly expressed it – many who think they are thinking are merely rearranging their prejudices.
 
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