D
Dancelittleewok
Guest
Seeing John Haggee on “God’s Warriors” got me thinking. I was wondering if Christians should support Israel, particularly the Zionist movement. What do you think?
- Status
R
RobHom
Guest
From a purely political standpoint we have no choice. At present they and their military are the chess piece that keeps the “checkmate” on the board in place. Also, they are just about our own real ally in that part of the word…even if they have a bad habit of spying on us…but I’m sure we do it to them as well.
From a spiritual standpoint…we are obligated to do so. Were we to cast them adrift and let it be known to the arab world that we would abstain from interference with attacks on Israel, the holocaust in Europe in the 30’s and 40’s would be little more than a footnote to what would happen…
Several Arab nations and Iran (which is not arab) have vowed the total destruction and genocide of the Jewish State and its people.
From a spiritual standpoint…we are obligated to do so. Were we to cast them adrift and let it be known to the arab world that we would abstain from interference with attacks on Israel, the holocaust in Europe in the 30’s and 40’s would be little more than a footnote to what would happen…
Several Arab nations and Iran (which is not arab) have vowed the total destruction and genocide of the Jewish State and its people.
V
vern_humphrey
Guest
As Americans, we should support the United States – which is the last, best hope for humanity.
To the extent that other nations’ interests are congruent with our interests, we should support them.
When interests diverge, when auld acquaintences be forgot – keep your eye on the Grand Old Flag.
To the extent that other nations’ interests are congruent with our interests, we should support them.
When interests diverge, when auld acquaintences be forgot – keep your eye on the Grand Old Flag.
T
Texas_Roofer
Guest
Christians should support humans. Jesus did not use force to genocide the Romans, instead he prayed for their forgiveness. We should follow that example.
B
bones_IV
Guest
**Mid East conflict.
Question from on 07-20-2006:
**Dear Dr. Geraghty, In the present mid-east crisis, how can we approach the justification of this War? The Lebanese side has suffered great civilian losses when compared to Israel and the former is unable to defend itself. Does God really approve of this war by the Israelis as the fundamentalist Christians say?Then wouldn’t God be very one sided? We are told that God loves everyone, regardless of their faith? How does this worK? Thank you.
**
Answer by Richard Geraghty on 08-02-2006:
**I do not see how the fundamentalists can say that God certainly favor Israel. Nor can I see how anyone can say that God certainly favors the Palastinians, the other Arabs or the Lebanese. And yet one can say that the Lebanese seem to be the most innocent of all the parties because they have no control over their own country. They are caught in the middle. The only solution seems to be that the Israel and the Palestinians work out something together, which at this stage sounds impossible. There has been so much blood spilled between them that reconciliation seems impossible. I suppose both sides that appeal to public opinion in an effort to sway it to their side. But I do not see how that is going to work. I know a bit about the fight in Northern Ireland. It seems that both side came to the conclusion that they could go on killing each other to the end of the world and the issue would still not be decided. So both side gave up the idea of knocking out the other side and decided it would be better to live with each other. I imagine that they are still not happy with each other–but as least they are not killing each other. It seems that in the final analysis the solution is up to both parties. Pope John Paul the Great in Poland faced the situation that, though the Communists were in the wrong in oppressing Poland, he was pushing that the Polish say their prayer, be non-Violante, not look for a fight,forgive enemies, not look for revenge. And this is in the case where I think that one could judge that the communists were definitely wrong and the Polish people were innocent. I do not think the situation is that clear cut between Israel and the Palestinians. And even if it is, non violence is the proper way. But who has the nerve to say that when Israel is bombing the Lebanese to get at the Hezbollah and the Hezbollah are shooting rockets into Israel. Who is wise enough to sort out the justice in this whole situation?
Dr. Geraghty
Question from on 07-20-2006:
**Dear Dr. Geraghty, In the present mid-east crisis, how can we approach the justification of this War? The Lebanese side has suffered great civilian losses when compared to Israel and the former is unable to defend itself. Does God really approve of this war by the Israelis as the fundamentalist Christians say?Then wouldn’t God be very one sided? We are told that God loves everyone, regardless of their faith? How does this worK? Thank you.
**
Answer by Richard Geraghty on 08-02-2006:
**I do not see how the fundamentalists can say that God certainly favor Israel. Nor can I see how anyone can say that God certainly favors the Palastinians, the other Arabs or the Lebanese. And yet one can say that the Lebanese seem to be the most innocent of all the parties because they have no control over their own country. They are caught in the middle. The only solution seems to be that the Israel and the Palestinians work out something together, which at this stage sounds impossible. There has been so much blood spilled between them that reconciliation seems impossible. I suppose both sides that appeal to public opinion in an effort to sway it to their side. But I do not see how that is going to work. I know a bit about the fight in Northern Ireland. It seems that both side came to the conclusion that they could go on killing each other to the end of the world and the issue would still not be decided. So both side gave up the idea of knocking out the other side and decided it would be better to live with each other. I imagine that they are still not happy with each other–but as least they are not killing each other. It seems that in the final analysis the solution is up to both parties. Pope John Paul the Great in Poland faced the situation that, though the Communists were in the wrong in oppressing Poland, he was pushing that the Polish say their prayer, be non-Violante, not look for a fight,forgive enemies, not look for revenge. And this is in the case where I think that one could judge that the communists were definitely wrong and the Polish people were innocent. I do not think the situation is that clear cut between Israel and the Palestinians. And even if it is, non violence is the proper way. But who has the nerve to say that when Israel is bombing the Lebanese to get at the Hezbollah and the Hezbollah are shooting rockets into Israel. Who is wise enough to sort out the justice in this whole situation?
Dr. Geraghty
M
melensdad
Guest
Yes we should support Israel, largely because they are humans and they share many of the same beliefs we share. But we should also support the Palestenians, Lebanese, etc. While many harbor ill feelings for the Muslims, and while many of the radical Muslims simply hate us, it is not our place to hate them.
I don’t see that it is mutually exclusive to support both the state of Israel and the rights of Palestine. Both should be allowed to exist. Where things get very muddy is when both want to exist in the same land, obviously some compromise must take place that allows for mutual respect. Organizations like Hamas, which vow to wipe Israel off the face of the earth, simply cannot be allowed to control Palestine.
As for Lebanon, that is actually a reasonably peaceful nation, it WAS dominated by a terrorist state (Syria) and had a puppet government for a period of time, with a police and military that was a proxy for Syria. However over the past year Syria’s influence has been greatly diminished within Lebanon. Christians and Muslims generally co-exist in Lebanon with a good level of mutual respect.
I don’t see that it is mutually exclusive to support both the state of Israel and the rights of Palestine. Both should be allowed to exist. Where things get very muddy is when both want to exist in the same land, obviously some compromise must take place that allows for mutual respect. Organizations like Hamas, which vow to wipe Israel off the face of the earth, simply cannot be allowed to control Palestine.
As for Lebanon, that is actually a reasonably peaceful nation, it WAS dominated by a terrorist state (Syria) and had a puppet government for a period of time, with a police and military that was a proxy for Syria. However over the past year Syria’s influence has been greatly diminished within Lebanon. Christians and Muslims generally co-exist in Lebanon with a good level of mutual respect.
P
Proletarian
Guest
Throughout history empires have risen and fallen; soon the US will be relegated to the shadows of the EU India and China. If your country wants to make a difference it better get a move along
V
vern_humphrey
Guest
Cleanse your finger before you point at our spots.
A
AdvanceAlways
Guest
We should absolutely support Israel. The people of Israel have the greatest claim to the land, not the palestinians. They have no historical claim to it whatsoever. Israel one of the few rays of hope in the middle East. And I am not speaking from a “Christian Zionism” perspective, I am speaking politically and from what is good. Sadly too many Americans would like to believe what they see about the palestinians on CNN, them as “oppressed” and “violated” people. If anyone is oppressing the palestinians, it is the Jordanians and Egyptians. The Arabs have their own states, let the Jews and Christians have Israel!
M
manualman
Guest
Support Israel? Depends on what you mean.
Do I believe they have the right to exist, the right to defend themselves against sustained attempts at genocide, defend against attempts to, at best drive them (Israelis) out of what they call Israel? Of course! And I have a hard time believing actual christians think we should simply turn away withdraw all support and let what will be, be.
On the other hand, I think they have quite often overstepped the bounds of appropriateness in response to violence. Nobody in that conflict gets to wear a lilly white hat. There are no easy solutions. But if the roles there were reversed in terms of who held the military power, I think things would be significantly different…
Do I believe they have the right to exist, the right to defend themselves against sustained attempts at genocide, defend against attempts to, at best drive them (Israelis) out of what they call Israel? Of course! And I have a hard time believing actual christians think we should simply turn away withdraw all support and let what will be, be.
On the other hand, I think they have quite often overstepped the bounds of appropriateness in response to violence. Nobody in that conflict gets to wear a lilly white hat. There are no easy solutions. But if the roles there were reversed in terms of who held the military power, I think things would be significantly different…
S
SoCalRC
Guest
Has allies of convenience really worked out for us? In hindsight was teaming up with Sadam because we had a mutual enemy in Iran smart? And, of course, helping Osama in Afghanistan because he was fighting the Soviets didn’t reap much in the way of long term benefits. Of course, thinking of Osama, we have to consider our good friendship with the House of Saud, which provided $70 billion to Wahabi extremism and citizens to carry out 9/11.
And, since old friends would not drop into lock step with our ambitions in Iraq, we found a new friendship in Pakistan. Of course, seemingly harboring Osama, while providing assistance to other enemies in weapons of mass destruction has me a little skeptical about the long term benefits of that relationship as well…
I know that individuals like George Weigel take it as Gospel that combining pure self interest, pragmatic alliances, and the selective exportation of Democracy at the point of a gun is the perfect blueprint for the century, but I am hard pressed to find a single instance were pursuit of such a policies has not been a complete and costly disaster.
N
NewUlm1976_2000
Guest
Show support? Probably yes. Show blind, unending support? Of course not.
You can be supportative of some of the religious tenants of Judaism and not support all the state policies of Israel. Often the Zionist movement of Judaism represents many extremists who have their own, extreme interpretation of the Torah and other traditions. You also add in traditional nationalism and that only muddies the water even more.
V
vern_humphrey
Guest
Give us a lecture on Spikeman and Mackinder, will you?
B
bones_IV
Guest
Give to God what belongs to God, and give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar
C
CindiA
Guest
Yes, we are obligated to support Israel. The OT says Pray for the peace of Jerusalem. They shall prosper that love (it). Also, God says that He will bless them that bless (Israel) and curse them that curse (Israel). There is both blessings and curses in how we treat Israel, God’s chosen.
S
seekerz
Guest
It’s interesting you first quote the prayer for the peace of Jerusalem because I’ve seen some of the Hagee “gospel” mentioned by the OP and it calls for use of nuclear weapons and seems to stress that the antichrist will be a man of peace.
Sorry, but even with the Romans ruling (and oppressing) Israel, nowhere in the Gospels do we see Jesus advocating the taking up of arms to remove them. Since our Lord generally seemed to lead not just by words, but by example I am left to conclude that He wanted to teach us the importance of spiritual concerns over other issues (be they national, territorial, historical you name it).
What I will pray for is peace and conversion (of the Jews and of all people).
I’m more concerned what happens to their immortal souls than what happens to a few square miles of admittedly hallowed land.
It also seems a little odd to me that many of the promises made by God in the Old Testament have traditionally been applied to Christians but that this “bless those who bless you” verse continues to be applied by some specifically to (the physical) Israel rather than generally to all of us who are in Christ.
I get the feeling that in the Gospels Christ calls us to love all men. That seems to translate into not favoring some over others and calling right and wrong what it is regardless of who does it.
To avoid running afoul of the Gospel, it seems necessary to separate my nation’s foreign policy decisions from my spiritual responsibilities as defined by Christ.
M
melensdad
Guest
The Romans were ‘occupiers’ and ‘rulers’ over the lands they conquered. The inhabitants were ‘subjects’ of the Romans. The Romans conquered lands to expand their wealth and their lands. They needed the ‘subjects’ to pay ‘tribute.’
In the case of Hamas and other terrorist groups, and for that matter terrorist nations like Syria, they have vowed to ‘exterminate’ the Jews and wipe them off the face of the earth. They hate the Jews. They want to kill them.
I think the parallel to the Romans you used was in error, motives and ends are different.
S
seekerz
Guest
I wasn’t drawing a parallel with Hamas etc, I was just pointing out that even with Israel occupied by the Romans (a big deal by worldly standards) Jesus seemed to think there were more important things to be concerned about, or to put it another way, despite the challenges to Israel as a nation, His main concern was (and I believe still is) the state of their relationship with God. Seems like that should be ours too. Ultimately, once that is fixed, other things fall into line. Seek ye first…
M
melensdad
Guest
It seems to me that there is no way to not draw a parallel in the way you wrote your response.
If the Romans were to rise again and occupy Isreal, the likelyhood is that SOME of the Isrealis would be killed as a show of power & dominance, some taken as slaves (which was their custom), but most would be allowed to live and would pay tribute to Rome (*pay unto Caeser . . . *).
If the Syrians, Iranians, Hamas, etc were to occupy Isreal the likely outcome would be all out genocide of the Jewish people. They have said as much and we should take their threats seriously as they have provided much evidence to prove to the world their words are their true intent. They simply want to wipe out the Jews.
As Christians, we should stand in the way of genocide.
B
BlueKnight
Guest
Christians should pray for Isreal and for peace.
Nuff said.
But, I personally think Isreal creates problems for America.
Nuff said.
But, I personally think Isreal creates problems for America.
- Status