Should Church follow Secular Laws?

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Should the Most Holy Church follow Secular Laws? Or only if they do not contadict Church law?

I know in history, there was a seperation between Church and State in medieval Europe ( in a manner of speaking).

From what I know, I don’t think the secular authorities could interfere in church affairs. Examples of this are the practice of criminals being able to “seek sanctuary” at a church, where the kings forces could not reach them.

Another example of this is how Thomas Beckett tried to stop the king from interfering in church affairs?

I know as a practical matter, It is a good idea for Bishops/ preists etc. to follow the laws of the land. But is it a theological duty for a clergyman to do so? What if one was a priest who lived under Communist North Korea, Nazi Germany, or Wahabbi Saudi Arabia, and one had to follow an unjust law?

Shouldn’t the Church have it’s own seperate, untouchable, legal sphere? why or why not?
 
No. We’d have a bunch of mini-nations across the entire United States.
 
the only time the law should not be followed is if it is causing sin
 
Should the Most Holy Church follow Secular Laws? Or only if they do not contadict Church law?

I know in history, there was a seperation between Church and State in medieval Europe ( in a manner of speaking).

From what I know, I don’t think the secular authorities could interfere in church affairs. Examples of this are the practice of criminals being able to “seek sanctuary” at a church, where the kings forces could not reach them.

Another example of this is how Thomas Beckett tried to stop the king from interfering in church affairs?

I know as a practical matter, It is a good idea for Bishops/ preists etc. to follow the laws of the land. But is it a theological duty for a clergyman to do so? What if one was a priest who lived under Communist North Korea, Nazi Germany, or Wahabbi Saudi Arabia, and one had to follow an unjust law?

Shouldn’t the Church have it’s own seperate, untouchable, legal sphere? why or why not?
The Church does as a matter of principle, laid out in the Bible, encourage it’s members to respect and follow the secular laws pertinent to each country She operates in.
Jesus commanded us to “render unto Caesar what it is of Ceaser and to render unto God what is of God”.

However what She can never do is follow or tell us to obbey a law that leads us to sin. For She would be betraying Jesus and God that sent Him.

 
In general, yes, but let’s make a distinction between those laws that compel a Church to do something and those that compel a person - priest, religious, or laity - to do something. The long answer follows, but the short answer is “yes, unless there’s sufficient reason not to,” We have a duty not to follow immoral laws - many of which would likely be struck down by our Courts, at least so we hope.

The government can compel the Church to file the appropriate forms for continuing 501(c)(3) status, as it should. This is orderly and contributes to the rule of law, and doesn’t place an undue burden on or interfere with the management of the parish or diocese. The government can also compel the Church to comply with criminal investigations, ie by turning over evidence of, say, fraud or abuse by an employee. This is also entirely reasonable. However there are laws that the Church should oppose.

One example of a bill aimed at the Church was Connecticut Raised Bill No 1098 (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connecticut_Raised_Bill_1098 - sorry, it’s a decent summary) which would have compelled reorganization of the dioceses in Connecticut so that elected laity, not the bishop, would have final financial oversight. The Church fought the bill by lobbying and rallying the faithful, and the bill was ultimately tabled.

A more recent example comes from the case of a gay couple in the UK who are suing to have the Church of England perform their marriage (which is now considered a legal right in the UK). In this instance, the CoE would be compelled to pronounce something it has publicly professed not to recognize, that is a sacramental union between two men. The case is a little more prickly in the UK, where the CoE is a State Church that receives tax revenues, while in the US and elsewhere, the Catholic Church is a distinct entity. When such a case comes up in the US (as it no doubt will), the decision will be on whether the government has a compelling interest in effectively telling a Church what it can and cannot profess in terms of moral theology. That’s a rather astonishing question - what is the purpose of an institution defined by organized belief if it is not free to maintain or amend its own beliefs?

As for laws regarding individuals, this is a little more difficult because an individual’s right to self-determination or privacy stems from a different origin than an organization’s right to self-determination. An individual is held to have God-given rights, and created in a state in which the government must first and foremost make the case for interference; it isn’t - and should never be - a case of “if you’re not doing anything wrong, you don’t mind if we take a look” but rather “show me the warrant, the probable cause, the signature of the impartial judge, then I’ll let you in.”

Government can compel a Church to turn over documents, but an individual may invoke the right against self-incrimination (Fifth Amendment). Government can likewise seize assets of an institution suspected of laundering funds, while an individual reserves at least some assets that may not be seized so easily.

Consider the legal standard in Denmark, which also has a State Church. The State Church must perform gay marriages - however individual priests may decline to perform the marriage on the grounds they oppose gay marriage, provided that the Bishop finds a priest willing to perform the marriage. I’d assume there are a number of them, otherwise I don’t think the law would have passed.

In the US, a gay couple would have better success arguing that a parish must allow the couple to hold their wedding on property owned by the parish, than they would arguing the parish priest has a legal obligation to perform a sacramental marriage for the couple.

I’m trying to think of an instance in which the religious life of the individual would be directly imperiled by the government, but the possibility strikes me as too remote and any examples that come up cross into the ridiculous, notions that would never be accepted for long enough to be any threat.
 
I’m trying to think of an instance in which the religious life of the individual would be directly imperiled by the government, but the possibility strikes me as too remote and any examples that come up cross into the ridiculous, notions that would never be accepted for long enough to be any threat.
That is a really great post, right up to the last paragraph. I’m not so sure about that paragraph.

I guess you always have the option of discarding your profession if you are a doctor, nurse, social worker, pharmacist, etc. and you do not want to provide services that are legal to be provided. I’m not sure exactly how far this boundary has been encroached in different states, but it certainly is not ridiculously impossible. Closing professions (that are not inherently immoral*) to faithful members of a church is sort of edging into bad territory.

And that’s not even going into the issue of the government fining you if you do not have health insurance that covers immoral services.

I guess it depends on how you define “the religious life of the individual” and also “imperiled.” 😃 Of course I may just be misunderstanding you anyway.

–Jen
  • Meaning that closing the medical profession to a Catholic is not OK, whereas closing it to a Christian Scientist is OK. This is because the Christian Scientist considers the point of the work to be immoral, whereas the Catholic does not–however may be legally required to provide services that he or she considers immoral. In the same way, closing the profession of prostitution to faithful Catholics is OK. 😉
 
I guess you always have the option of discarding your profession if you are a doctor, nurse, social worker, pharmacist, etc. and you do not want to provide services that are legal to be provided.
That didn’t even cross my mind. That is a very real possibility that’s been brought up several times that entirely slipped my mind when I wrote that. Thanks for mentioning it. I was coming up with things like “one-child policy” and “mandatory contraception to enroll in public schools”.

So I’m not misunderstood, it is intrinsically very harmful for Catholics to have to entirely exit the medical field, especially when it comes to reproductive and end-of-life care questions. Good point.

I don’t personally have a qualm with the next issue:
And that’s not even going into the issue of the government fining you if you do not have health insurance that covers immoral services.
There’s sufficient separation of my funds from the decision of another participant to pay for immoral services that I don’t incur guilt for participating in a health insurance program. I think also that the compelling good of providing for the health care of my family - which is my primary intent in enrolling in my health plan - overweighs the evil of someone else in my plan enjoying coverage - for which they also pay - for abortions, contraception or sterilization.
 
No. We’d have a bunch of mini-nations across the entire United States.
To some degree isn’t this what States are?

As for following the laws, keep in mind that some laws are as they are because in part people kept breaking them and protesting against them (prohibition of alcohol, segregation laws, …).
 
It’s not the Middle Ages anymore. The purpose of man-made law is to allow cooperative arrangements between humans to flourish in order to maximize human potential. In other words, secular laws defend human life, protect human property, and promote maximuzation of the intrinsic value of life itself. Those are different faculties than the faculties of the Church.
 
There’s sufficient separation of my funds from the decision of another participant to pay for immoral services that I don’t incur guilt for participating in a health insurance program. I think also that the compelling good of providing for the health care of my family - which is my primary intent in enrolling in my health plan - overweighs the evil of someone else in my plan enjoying coverage - for which they also pay - for abortions, contraception or sterilization.
It’s the government making the decision for you and the fact that it specifically requires the immoral services that I have a problem with, not the concept of health insurance. Someone else might make a different decision, especially if they don’t have kids, but too bad for them.

–Jen
 
It’s the government making the decision for you and the fact that it specifically requires the immoral services that I have a problem with, not the concept of health insurance.
Well, that’s a legitimate question. Do you incur guilt for having insurance if you’re told “you must pay for coverage for services you find immoral, or you get no insurance at all?” I personally am comfortable with the distance between “part of my premium covers abortion” and “I procured an abortion”, but I can also say that every plan I’ve been on since I began working has covered abortion, though interestingly not every plan has covered contraception. In other words, I’ve never had a choice between a plan that covers abortion and one that does not; further, even if I did, I couldn’t guarantee that part of my premiums wouldn’t go towards paying for abortions for someone on a different plan offered by the same insurer.

I am against the notion that one must have abortion and contraceptive services covered, or otherwise that insured is really under-insured. Let those who might use the services actually pay for them - there’s no reason for an unmarried male, or anyone beyond the age of fertility, to need such services nor things like maternity care and childbirth. But I don’t find having those services covered, on face, to be inherently immoral. I incur no guilt because of it - administrators may very well, but I do not merely by having insurance.

Now, one could point out that insurance is about spreading risk among many, so that adding in low-risk participants helps reduce the premiums for everyone involved; in that case, requiring folks who are low risk for using contraception to nonetheless carry insurance for contraception spreads out the total expected cost of providing contraception and therefore makes the premiums lower for everyone. But this would have to be shown in practice, not merely noted as theory. When young people, who are generally healthy and have lower medical costs, enter the labor force following college graduation every year, we would expect to see a drop in our insurance premiums because those young folks are paying the same premiums but adding less risk. This however does not happen. Our premiums are based upon estimates, and I think it unusual for an insurance company to find ways to reduce premiums to follow a reduction in aggregate risk; having less risk but getting the same premiums is one way to increase profit.
 
Well, that’s a legitimate question. Do you incur guilt for having insurance if you’re told “you must pay for coverage for services you find immoral, or you get no insurance at all?” I personally am comfortable with the distance between “part of my premium covers abortion” and “I procured an abortion”, but I can also say that every plan I’ve been on since I began working has covered abortion, though interestingly not every plan has covered contraception. In other words, I’ve never had a choice between a plan that covers abortion and one that does not; further, even if I did, I couldn’t guarantee that part of my premiums wouldn’t go towards paying for abortions for someone on a different plan offered by the same insurer.
I agree with you. I work for a company based in California, so AFAICT all the things Obamacare wants were already covered, and more.

I’m just saying that if I disagreed (as some people may) there would no longer be a possibility of finding a company to work for that did NOT include those benefits, and if I decided on forgoing coverage, I would be subject to government penalty.

Just because it doesn’t affect me personally, doesn’t mean it’s not important. 😉

–Jen
 
Should the Most Holy Church follow Secular Laws? Or only if they do not contadict Church law?

I know in history, there was a seperation between Church and State in medieval Europe ( in a manner of speaking).

From what I know, I don’t think the secular authorities could interfere in church affairs. Examples of this are the practice of criminals being able to “seek sanctuary” at a church, where the kings forces could not reach them.

Another example of this is how Thomas Beckett tried to stop the king from interfering in church affairs?

I know as a practical matter, It is a good idea for Bishops/ preists etc. to follow the laws of the land. But is it a theological duty for a clergyman to do so? What if one was a priest who lived under Communist North Korea, Nazi Germany, or Wahabbi Saudi Arabia, and one had to follow an unjust law?

Shouldn’t the Church have it’s own seperate, untouchable, legal sphere? why or why not?
Well, Saint Thomas Aquinas pointed out, and I agree with him, that secular authorities receive their power from God, and that out of respect, we should obey all laws -which do not require us to break the law of God.- In other words, we should only disobey secular authorities in cases where obeying them would be morally unjustified.
 
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