Should cohabitating or ABC endorsing couples be allowed a Catholic wedding?

[setter]

Yes, good for him.

tee

We know, we know …you would have the couple quote this priest from canon law and demand as baptised Christians their right to a sacramental marriage …“We want it, and we want it now!” …

Question: Is there ever an instance in your understanding of sacramental marriage when pastoral common sense and discretion would indefinitely delay proceeding with a Catholic marriage?

 

[Pug]

Why on earth would two people who *have no intention following Catholic teaching want to be married in the Catholic Church *in the first place?

My guess is that 95% of the time (and that’s a conservative estimate) is because it’s what’s expected of them by their parents/families/society etc., not because they actually have a desire to follow the Church’s teachings in regard to marriage.

I think some people want to get married in the Church because they are members of the Church and they are aware that the Church herself wants them to marry in the Church. So it is in obedience to the Church that they are doing it. This is something real, even if they are simultaneously ignoring what the Church wants about ABC.

I know, you said *no intention of following Catholic teaching, *but I don’t know any of those people personally, except those who have left already.

 

[wanner47]

I think some people want to get married in the Church because they are members of the Church and they are aware that the Church herself wants them to marry in the Church. So it is in obedience to the Church that they are doing it. This is something real, even if they are simultaneously ignoring what the Church wants about ABC.

I know, you said *no intention of following Catholic teaching, *but I don’t know any of those people personally, except those who have left already.

I understand what you mean, but at the same time I think the Church really needs to emphasize the folly of being a cafeteria Catholic; i.e., there are some things in the Church of which one is free to have a differing opinion (say, prefering an indult TLM to a NO mass), but that the Church teachings about premarital sex and ABC are NOT OPTIONAL.

If you’re going to be obedient to the Church in one thing (i.e., marrying within the Church) then you should strive to be obedient in ALL THINGS. I know no one is perfect, least of all myself, but intentionally and unrepentantly cohabitating is NOT striving to be obedient.

If you’re virulently opposed to Church teaching but still want to marry licitly, then as I understand it the correct process would be to formally defect from the RCC and marry in a Protestant church. I could be wrong on that, though.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

I am sorry, I am not sure I understand your question.

Firstly my marriage was not Catholic as I was married before I converted to Christianity. (In fact my conversion was one of the main reasons my ex divorced me.) But I did get a Sanation after my Confirmation.

The tribunal, in outlining the numerous grounds for nullity, specifically stated that since before the marriage my (now ex-) wife and I purposely excluded children and used ABC for this purpose was one of the grounds for nullity.

There you go, **“The marriage was invalid because prior to entering both willfully intended to avoid children with out just cause, and to use ABC both issues are in violation of the Church’s teachings.” **Note that had you married, had a child, then said no more of this; ABC from here on out. The latter is not grounds for an annulment. In your case the ABC was proof of intent but not actual grounds.

 

[Pug]

I understand what you mean, but at the same time I think the Church really needs to emphasize the folly of being a cafeteria Catholic; i.e., there are some things in the Church of which one is free to have a differing opinion (say, prefering an indult TLM to a NO mass), but that the Church teachings about premarital sex and ABC are NOT OPTIONAL.

I agree. Not everyone seems to get that some stuff is not optional.

If you’re virulently opposed to Church teaching but still want to marry licitly, then as I understand it the correct process would be to formally defect from the RCC and marry in a Protestant church. I could be wrong on that, though.

Well, this can’t be correct exactly, because defection from the Church is wrong. But I see where you are going. It is no longer easy to “formally defect”. I don’t think one can simply go get baptized as a Mormon or something similar. Didn’t I read that now one would have to send a message to the local ordinary?

 

[wanner47]

Well, this can’t be correct exactly, because defection from the Church is wrong. But I see where you are going. It is no longer easy to “formally defect”. I don’t think one can simply go get baptized as a Mormon or something similar. Didn’t I read that now one would have to send a message to the local ordinary?

Of course, defecting from the Church is *always *wrong, but if someone, for whatever reason, wishes to marry outside of the Church because s/he does not believe in Catholic teaching yet still wants to follow Catholic teaching in regards to marriage confused: I know, I don’t get it either), formal defection seems to be the only option.

 

[Pug]

Of course, defecting from the Church is *always *wrong, but if someone, for whatever reason, wishes to marry outside of the Church because s/he does not believe in Catholic teaching yet still wants to follow Catholic teaching in regards to marriage confused: I know, I don’t get it either), formal defection seems to be the only option.

Oh, wait, are you asking if a Catholic always has to get married in the Church (parish)? If so, the answer is no. You can get a dispensation to get married in a Protestant Church. The bishop doesn’t have to do this, but he can give a dispensation on this topic. I don’t think he would, though, if they wanted it because they disliked Church teaching.

I’m not sure if this means you still have to have a priest there as well as the minister or not, or if it must be just the priest alone. Anyone know?

 

[Pug]

It might depend on if it is a mixed marriage or not. I don’t know.

 

[wanner47]

Oh, wait, are you asking if a Catholic always has to get married in the Church (parish)? If so, the answer is no. You can get a dispensation to get married in a Protestant Church. The bishop doesn’t have to do this, but he can give a dispensation on this topic. I don’t think he would, though, if they wanted it because they disliked Church teaching.

I’m not sure if this means you still have to have a priest there as well as the minister or not, or if it must be just the priest alone. Anyone know?

Yes, a Catholic marrying a non-Catholic can get a dispensation to marry outside the Church, but the situation I’m speaking of is two baptized Catholics who don’t want to marry in the Church because they don’t want to follow church teaching, but (for whatever bizarre reason) still want to get married in the Church (even though they’ll hardly ever darken a church’s doors again).

Clear as mud?

 

[jmcrae]

Yes, a Catholic marrying a non-Catholic can get a dispensation to marry outside the Church, but the situation I’m speaking of is two baptized Catholics who don’t want to marry in the Church because they don’t want to follow church teaching, but (for whatever bizarre reason) still want to get married in the Church (even though they’ll hardly ever darken a church’s doors again).

Clear as mud?

In such a case, I would expect them to do whatever they want - after all, why should they change just for this? But if they convert back to the faith later in life (as often happens when the first child is born), they would have to have the marriage convalidated.

 

[CuriousInIL]

I am clearly missing something here because, to me, if the only teaching of the Church that a couple is clearly violating is the teaching not cohabit with one of the opposite sex except when married to said person, then entering into the sacrament of marriage would stop that violation and they would appear to be in line with Church teachings. No?

 

[setter]

I am clearly missing something here because, to me, if the only teaching of the Church that a couple is clearly violating is the teaching not cohabit with one of the opposite sex except when married to said person, then entering into the sacrament of marriage would stop that violation and they would appear to be in line with Church teachings. No?

I do believe that you missed the whole *Preparation for the Sacrament of Marriage *process.

 

[wanner47]

In such a case, I would expect them to do whatever they want - after all, why should they change just for this? But if they convert back to the faith later in life (as often happens when the first child is born), they would have to have the marriage convalidated.

Right, but the question is:

Should priests agree to marry a couple if the couple in question has no intention of following Church teaching in regard to marriage, before and/or after the wedding?

My opinion is no.

 

[jmcrae]

Right, but the question is:

Should priests agree to marry a couple if the couple in question has no intention of following Church teaching in regard to marriage, before and/or after the wedding?

My opinion is no.

I agree, with the caveat that the priest has attempted to evangelize the couple before tossing them out of his office.

 

[wanner47]

I agree, with the caveat that the priest has attempted to evangelize the couple before tossing them out of his office.

Absolutely.

 

[lsu]

I just love how catholics thinks that living in sin is just horrible.

But at the same time its ok to get drunk go to mass the next morning and receive communion,leave mass knowing you will stop at the store to purchase beer and get total wasted. Or even go to mass wasted and receive communion.

I have a FRIEND WHO TOLAD ME THAT I WAS LIVING WRONG YES I’M LIVING IN SIN.

LET TELL YOU ABOUT ME I COME HOME FROM WORK SOBBER AND I GO TO BED SOBBER SO DOES MY BOYFRIEND

MY FRIEND WHO TELLS ME THAT I,M LIVING WRONG GOES HOME DRUNK GOES TO BED DRUNK
HER HUSBAND GOES OUT ON THURSDAY NIGHT AND DON’T COME UNTIL SUNDAY AND HE’S DRINKING

BUT I GUESS IN A CATHOLIC MIND THAT’S OK YES I BECAME CATHOLIC LAST YEAR NOW I WONDERING WHY BECAUSE THERES MORE HYPROCITES IN THE CATHOLIC RELIGION THAN ANY OTHER RELIGON IVE BEEN AROUND

AND DON’T TELL ME THAT BEING AN ALCHOLIC IS A SICKNESS BECAUSE THAT IS ****.

 

[wanner47]

I just love how catholics thinks that living in sin is just horrible.

But at the same time its ok to get drunk go to mass the next morning and receive communion,leave mass knowing you will stop at the store to purchase beer and get total wasted. Or even go to mass wasted and receive communion.

I have a FRIEND WHO TOLAD ME THAT I WAS LIVING WRONG YES I’M LIVING IN SIN.

LET TELL YOU ABOUT ME I COME HOME FROM WORK SOBBER AND I GO TO BED SOBBER SO DOES MY BOYFRIEND

MY FRIEND WHO TELLS ME THAT I,M LIVING WRONG GOES HOME DRUNK GOES TO BED DRUNK
HER HUSBAND GOES OUT ON THURSDAY NIGHT AND DON’T COME UNTIL SUNDAY AND HE’S DRINKING

BUT I GUESS IN A CATHOLIC MIND THAT’S OK YES I BECAME CATHOLIC LAST YEAR NOW I WONDERING WHY BECAUSE THERES MORE HYPROCITES IN THE CATHOLIC RELIGION THAN ANY OTHER RELIGON IVE BEEN AROUND

AND DON’T TELL ME THAT BEING AN ALCHOLIC IS A SICKNESS BECAUSE THAT IS ****.

I’m sorry you are so wracked with guilt about your current situation.

The Church does not teach that either of the behaviors you mentioned are acceptable. It is a sin for your friend to abuse alcohol. But just because he sins does not mean that your sin is justified, or that he’s wrong about your situation being sinful.

If I were you, I would encourage your friend to attend an AA meeting, and to ask God’s help to overcome his addiction to alcohol.

I also recommend reading “Good News About Sex and Marriage” by Christopher West to get a better idea of what the Church teaches regarding premarital sex, and why She teaches the way She does.

By the way, it looks like your caps lock key is stuck, you might want to get that fixed.

 

[otjm]

I just love how catholics thinks that living in sin is just horrible.

But at the same time its ok to get drunk go to mass the next morning and receive communion,leave mass knowing you will stop at the store to purchase beer and get total wasted. Or even go to mass wasted and receive communion.

I have a FRIEND WHO TOLAD ME THAT I WAS LIVING WRONG YES I’M LIVING IN SIN.

LET TELL YOU ABOUT ME I COME HOME FROM WORK SOBBER AND I GO TO BED SOBBER SO DOES MY BOYFRIEND

MY FRIEND WHO TELLS ME THAT I,M LIVING WRONG GOES HOME DRUNK GOES TO BED DRUNK
HER HUSBAND GOES OUT ON THURSDAY NIGHT AND DON’T COME UNTIL SUNDAY AND HE’S DRINKING

BUT I GUESS IN A CATHOLIC MIND THAT’S OK YES I BECAME CATHOLIC LAST YEAR NOW I WONDERING WHY BECAUSE THERES MORE HYPROCITES IN THE CATHOLIC RELIGION THAN ANY OTHER RELIGON IVE BEEN AROUND

AND DON’T TELL ME THAT BEING AN ALCHOLIC IS A SICKNESS BECAUSE THAT IS ****.

Using all caps is like screaming. Hopefully, the objective is to have a reasoned conversation, not to scream at each other.

No, in the Catholic mind, getting drunk is not ok, and you should be old enough now to know that there are Catholic drunks, and Baptist drunks, and Mormon drunks, and Evangelical drunks… and I think you get the point without my beating you over the head.

Yes, some alcoholism is a sickness, and that has been shown medically enough to be irrefutable; and some drinking is not alcoholism but wrong headed choice. Let’s call it sin, as that is what it is.

But do Catholics think it is ok to get drunk and then go to Mass? Maybe tht depends on who you define as Catholic…

So does your choice justify other’s choices? Or do their choices justify yours? And are you saying that because people sin and go to Church, they are hippocrites? Did Christ come for the righteous or the sinners? You should be old enough now to answer that.

 

[Greg27]

I think this is best decided on a case by case basis by consulting with the priest. I don’t think it is good, unless absolutely necessary, to go around pronoucing severe judgement on people who aren’t necessarily following the rules by every jot and letter; fraternal correction has to be in a spirit of compassion and mercy which balances justice. Priests usually have cases like these in their formational training, as lawyers have to practice ‘moot’ court before being admitted to the bar. Those of us who are not ‘professionals’ in the field should refrain from rash judgement before we know all the factors which make people behave the way they do; but, practicing Catholics should do their best to know what the Church teaches on the matter and follow it unless there is very, very good reason not to in their conscience.