Should dissenting Catholics be encouraged to leave the Church?

[KathleenGee]

If someone is dissenting and does not believe in the Eucharist but claims to be Catholic…there should be a discipline they not receive.

Dissension and constant doubting are, as Fr Dubay stated in his book, ‘Faith and Certitude’, that such is a form of intellectual sickness. And we have to be patient with people. I know several priests who went off the deep end because of politics and recovered. \

Patience is golden.

 

[simpleas]

Does anyone else notice that the vast majority of those (including moi) that disagree with Church doctrines are mainly concerned with social issues and NOT basic theological dogma? I am a cradle Catholic and love the Mass and the community of my Jesuit parish. That I do not agree with and will not support the Chuch’s stance on LGBTQ issues has absolutely nothing to do with my belief in the True Presence. Just let someone try and run me out of the Church - this old lady knows how to swing a mean Designer purse!

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Does anyone else notice that the vast majority of those (including moi) that disagree with Church doctrines are mainly concerned with social issues and NOT basic theological dogma? I am a cradle Catholic and love the Mass and the community of my Jesuit parish. That I do not agree with and will not support the Chuch’s stance on LGBTQ issues has absolutely nothing to do with my belief in the True Presence. Just let someone try and run me out of the Church - this old lady knows how to swing a mean Designer purse!

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Does anyone else notice that the vast majority of those (including moi) that disagree with Church doctrines are mainly concerned with social issues and NOT basic theological dogma? I am a cradle Catholic and love the Mass and the community of my Jesuit parish. That I do not agree with and will not support the Chuch’s stance on LGBTQ issues has absolutely nothing to do with my belief in the True Presence. Just let someone try and run me out of the Church - this old lady knows how to swing a mean Designer purse!

Seriously, I have never walked into a Roman Catholic church to find someone at the door with a check list. Do you believe a? b? c? Not seen it. Ever.

Let people wrestle with such issues as they need to, and find comfort and love in the community of faith and at Christ’s Table.

 

[HelenRose]

I’m starting this thread because a discussion on a “social justice” thread about gay marriage has spun off this sub-topic, and I expect the moderators to announce any time now that it’s gotten off topic.

I am myself in agreement with Catholic teaching on sexuality (women’s ordination, as many here know, is much more difficult for me), but I oppose strenuously the claim made by many here that people who are dissenters (like Fr. James Alison, whose theological work I respect immensely) are acting in bad faith and should just leave the Church. I will repost my typology for discussing how different people relate to Church teaching on controversial issues, and then my latest response to the poster “Zoltan Cobalt.”

I can not speak for any one else. But for me, I would not belong to any organization or religion that I fundamentally disagreed with. I would not belong to an organization or religion and then speak ill of it to others. Nor would I speak with disapproval of its teachings to others. When I was a Protestant, I loved the Church I belonged to. I loved the people. I loved the care they gave me when I was a child. I could not accept the fundamental teachings of this precious Church. I did not fight against it. I will never speak speak ill of it. I loved it but I knew that it was hypocritical of me to continue belonging to this Church. So with sorrow, I left. And with gratitude beyond measure I found Christ and His teachings within the Catholic Church.

But this is the decision I made. Others will have to have their own heart to heart talk with God.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Seriously, I have never walked into a Roman Catholic church to find someone at the door with a check list. Do you believe a? b? c? Not seen it. Ever.

Let people wrestle with such issues as they need to, and find comfort and love in the community of faith and at Christ’s Table.

While I personally would tend to agree and this reminded me of a former Roman Catholic priest who after he became an Episcopal priest, said to me no one is with a checklist and if I felt called to come to the table to receive in TEC, so be it… a difference though I see is that the Roman Catholic Church doesn’t practice open Communion and people are told not to receive if they dissent and hold certain views. Take myself. I can’t deny that I support marriage equality and though I wrestled with this next social issue, in the end I find myself having to be pro choice in at least certain cases. I can’t deny that I dissent. I also can’t accept a male only celibate priesthood. I’ve missed Mass without confessing to a priest. There are many struggles I’ve had and these are just some reasons why I don’t practice the Catholic faith. But my understanding is I’m not to receive.

 

[Thorolfr]

But my understanding is I’m not to receive.

I suspect that a lot of Catholics receive anyway even if they know that the Church says that they shouldn’t. They have decide, for example, that they don’t believe that using contraception is really a sin.

 

[Sy_Noe]

If someone is dissenting and does not believe in the Eucharist but claims to be Catholic…there should be a discipline they not receive.

Dissension and constant doubting are, as Fr Dubay stated in his book, ‘Faith and Certitude’, that such is a form of intellectual sickness. And we have to be patient with people. I know several priests who went off the deep end because of politics and recovered. \

Patience is golden.

What do you mean there should be a discipline? Am I wrong that they already are told they should not receive? I’ve often seen on CAF people being told not to receive in their circumstances or in a certain state their souls are believed to be in. That they are not in the proper state of grace to receive. I’ve even attended a Roman Catholic Mass on Christmas Eve when it was announced who should not come forward to receive. I don’t understand what more you want. Do you mean you want someone with a checklist questioning each person?

 

[Sy_Noe]

I suspect that a lot of Catholics receive anyway even if they know that the Church says that they shouldn’t. They have decide, for example, that they don’t believe that using contraception is really a sin.

Thorolfr, I have no doubt because I confess I’ve received in the past when I’ve attended, knowing the Church says I should not have. Not everytime but I have. I’m just being truthful and honest about it. And I have my doubts I am alone.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Do you mean you want someone with a checklist questioning each person?

That is what I meant in post #44. Do you really think that someone should be at the door with that checklist of your beliefs as well as state of grace?

I do know that within the LDS church, in order to get a Temple Recommend (which allows you go into the Temple for prayer and rituals), the Bishop speaks with you each year and examines you on financial things, such as your tithe, on morals, and on sexual behavior, as well as beliefs. The checklist, as it were.

That might be something you all might consider if you feel strongly about who is allowed to participate in the faith and who is not.

 

[Sy_Noe]

I can not speak for any one else. But for me, I would not belong to any organization or religion that I fundamentally disagreed with. I would not belong to an organization or religion and then speak ill of it to others. Nor would I speak with disapproval of its teachings to others. When I was a Protestant, I loved the Church I belonged to. I loved the people. I loved the care they gave me when I was a child. I could not accept the fundamental teachings of this precious Church. I did not fight against it. I will never speak speak ill of it. I loved it but I knew that it was hypocritical of me to continue belonging to this Church. So with sorrow, I left. And with gratitude beyond measure I found Christ and His teachings within the Catholic Church.

But this is the decision I made. Others will have to have their own heart to heart talk with God.

Yes this is why I am a non-practicing Catholic. For the same reason you left your earlier faith community. I was baptized and confirmed in a Roman rite Catholic Church but came to a point when I realized it was hypocritical of me when I could not accept teachings. Even though I can not say with 100% certainty that I am right. Maybe the church I was raised in is the one true one. I cant know for sure without enough faith. I would still attend off and on. Sometimes more on than off and visa versa. But eventually became more and more non practicing. So I left the practice of the faith. And yes I could attend another faith community. I think of doing so often and someday I might work up enough nerve to do so. I actually did one Sunday but when I arrived at the small Episcopal mission whose priest I’ve had wonderful correspondence with, but it turned out she had been called to a family emergency and they were not having Mass that day. And it can be difficult for me sometimes in new unfamiliar circles. So right now I mostly find my spirit being fed via internet podcasts of sermons by another female Episcopal priest at another church near me and from other correspondence I’ve had with Episcopal priests and pastors of other mainline denominations. But I’m still waiting for someone to explain to me how I can actually leave the Catholic Church as you left your previous church. I still don’t see how from what I understand about OCAC. That’s what I don’t get about this thread. I still see it as a Catholic can leave the practice of the faith and even no longer consider themselves Catholic. But the Catholic Church still says they’re Catholic and can’t actually leave that. Does your previous Protestant church still consider you a member?

 

[catholic1seeks]

Yes, their sympathy to the Church is worthy of praise and they should be embraced with welcome.
Still, you can not be a full member of the Church, taking communion on par with others, until you come to terms with all the doctrines, infallibility included.

So what makes one a FULL member of the Church?

Who can know this but God alone?

 

[Sy_Noe]

So what makes one a FULL member of the Church?

Who can know this but God alone?

I think I understand what you mean. Only God knows our hearts. And I’ll add I also trust God understands why we think like we do. I know it’s what in faith that I’m banking on! That and God’s mercy where I may fall short. But at the same time I understand the CC does not consider me in full communion with it nor a good standing member. Aren’t there certain matters of faith that one is expected to adhere to in order to be in full communion? I know I fall short in doing so.

 

[billsannie]

When I belonged to a Catholic Church I was acquainted with a great many other Catholics. They ranged from very Traditionalist to very progressive, and everything in between. But they all had one thing in common: without exception, all dissented with the Church in some way, priests included. If all had left the Church I’m not sure there would have been enough left for a smaller, purer Church.

 

[Catholic_farmer]

No, they should not be sent away. Keep them close and let His grace help them. That could be any of us, at any time, when we are challenged by the world. That is the time when we should run to the arms of Christ and Our Blessed Mother. Running away would just damage our souls further.

 

[simpleas]

That is what I meant in post #44. Do you really think that someone should be at the door with that checklist of your beliefs as well as state of grace?

I do know that within the LDS church, in order to get a Temple Recommend (which allows you go into the Temple for prayer and rituals), the Bishop speaks with you each year and examines you on financial things, such as your tithe, on morals, and on sexual behavior, as well as beliefs. The checklist, as it were.

That might be something you all might consider if you feel strongly about who is allowed to participate in the faith and who is not.

I doubt our church would ever do something like the above, if it did I would not return.

Having a check list before you could enter seems like returning to the old jewish teachings on who was allowed into the temple and who was not. I thought Christ brought an end to such way of thinking, that even the unclean could stand before God when they have such faith in him.
Having such freedom of conscience as individuals allows us to struggle, be content etc on our journey through this life.
I’m glad I never have been interrogated by anyone, priest or lay. Especially in the confessional, I’m there because I need to be there, not because I have been told by someone else I should be there.
Plus no one knows what anyone has gone through during their life experience, and our church seems to be the one that welcomes all.

 

[NovusFidem]

Does anyone else notice that the vast majority of those (including moi) that disagree with Church doctrines are mainly concerned with social issues and NOT basic theological dogma? I am a cradle Catholic and love the Mass and the community of my Jesuit parish. That I do not agree with and will not support the Chuch’s stance on LGBTQ issues has absolutely nothing to do with my belief in the True Presence. Just let someone try and run me out of the Church - this old lady knows how to swing a mean Designer purse!

But the “Church is always right” is a basic theological dogma, making the acceptance of every doctrine necessary for we to show that we believe it.

I’ll agree with what someone here said: everyone dissents from the Church in one way or another. My question is: should they be allowed to VOICE their dissent and ask for changes on it, or should they work out their difficulties until they accept the doctrine?

The initial question was not about some small dissent. It seemed to relate to all those vocal, activist groups that want to force change in doctrines. But if the basic theological dogma that “the Church is always right” is true, then I believe it is us who must change…

 

[KathleenGee]

SyNoe…if you look at the missalette…those who are in communion with the Catholic Church can receive.

The Eucharist is the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ…so if you truly believe this and are in communion in the Church and not separated you may receive.

If someone does not believe in the reality of the Eucharist, one does not receive. If someone willfully and fully acknowledges our belief but denies the Real Presence but receives anyway, that person commits a sacrilege and grave sin.

However, a person who does not have faith can still go up with arms crossed over one’s heart and receive a blessing from the priest, and not from a lay person per se.

 

[ffg]

I’m starting this thread because a discussion on a “social justice” thread about gay marriage has spun off this sub-topic, and I expect the moderators to announce any time now that it’s gotten off topic.

I am myself in agreement with Catholic teaching on sexuality (women’s ordination, as many here know, is much more difficult for me), but I oppose strenuously the claim made by many here that people who are dissenters (like Fr. James Alison, whose theological work I respect immensely) are acting in bad faith and should just leave the Church. I will repost my typology for discussing how different people relate to Church teaching on controversial issues, and then my latest response to the poster “Zoltan Cobalt.”

Great thread title.

I was coming in expecting to defend a position, however you (OP) hold the same position as I.

It is illogical to say that because one sins, they are to be thrown out (or should leave willingly) of the hospital for sinners.

Why should someone leave the place that has the tools and resources to help not just them, but every human?

God would not have organized and taught a ‘Way’, if it was just ‘an option’ of many leading to the same result.

I’ve been away for a bit, so obviously, this is in reply to the OP, I need to read the entire thread, but will have to do so at a later time.

Have there been popes or priests that have taught contrary to historical Christianity? Sure, are they human?

Take care,

Mike

 

[HelenRose]

Yes this is why I am a non-practicing Catholic. For the same reason you left your earlier faith community. I was baptized and confirmed in a Roman rite Catholic Church but came to a point when I realized it was hypocritical of me when I could not accept teachings. Even though I can not say with 100% certainty that I am right. Maybe the church I was raised in is the one true one. I cant know for sure without enough faith. I would still attend off and on. Sometimes more on than off and visa versa. But eventually became more and more non practicing. So I left the practice of the faith. And yes I could attend another faith community. I think of doing so often and someday I might work up enough nerve to do so. I actually did one Sunday but when I arrived at the small Episcopal mission whose priest I’ve had wonderful correspondence with, but it turned out she had been called to a family emergency and they were not having Mass that day. And it can be difficult for me sometimes in new unfamiliar circles. So right now I mostly find my spirit being fed via internet podcasts of sermons by another female Episcopal priest at another church near me and from other correspondence I’ve had with Episcopal priests and pastors of other mainline denominations. But I’m still waiting for someone to explain to me how I can actually leave the Catholic Church as you left your previous church. I still don’t see how from what I understand about OCAC. That’s what I don’t get about this thread. I still see it as a Catholic can leave the practice of the faith and even no longer consider themselves Catholic. But the Catholic Church still says they’re Catholic and can’t actually leave that. Does your previous Protestant church still consider you a member?

I sent you a private message answering you to the best of my ability.