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Tomdstone
Guest
So Catholics are bound to observe it under the penalties given there.
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Contarini
Guest
Certainly a case can be made that in many cases we need divine revelation to understand fully what it means to be human, so that certain things might not be easily recognizable as intrinsic evils without the aid of revelation.
Edwin
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OraLabora
Guest
One cannot “encourage” a dissenting Catholic to leave the Church. Once a person is baptized, he or she is formally in the Church forever. the 1983 Code of Canon Law revisions removed the ability to formally defect from the Church. There is no mechanism therefore to encourage someone to “leave”. Whether they want to or not, even if they physically never return to a Catholic church and attend Mass, they are and remain fundamentally Catholic. A sacrament cannot be reversed, and the mark of baptism is permanent.
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utah_rose
Guest
I agree with you. Also, some of these Catholics just need more Instructions about why were against gay marriage(not gays) , abortion and ordination of women priests to name a few. Sadly some if these are cultural Catholics and were really never taught why we believe what we believe. The priests can help their understanding of the Eucharist too and why it’s a serious sin to receive if you’re in mortal sin or for example believe in abortion.
That said, dissident priests and theologians are another story, because they should know and practice their faith and not be arguing about these issues. They are the real ones that are causing scandal, as Catholics can be shaken in their faith.
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adawgj
Guest
No dissenting Catholics should never be encouraged to leave the Church. Leave the Church you leave Christ’s bride.
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Thorolfr
Guest
But why does that baptism make someone permanently Catholic rather than just permanently Christian? Is there a difference between a Catholic baptism and, for example, a Lutheran baptism? Aren’t they both equivalent? After all, a Lutheran who converts to Catholicism does not have to be re-baptized so that they then have a Catholic baptism instead of a Lutheran baptism.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Well of course Catholics and Lutherans are BOTH Christian.
The Trinitarian formula is the same (unless you had baptism in the ‘goofy era’ when it was trendy to do ‘in the name of the Creator, the Redeemer, and the Sanctifier’. Those DID involve ‘do-overs’.)
But once your Lutheran converts and becomes a member of the Catholic Church, said Lutheran is also indelibly Catholic from that point forward.
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Thorolfr
Guest
But according to OraLabora, “the 1983 Code of Canon Law revisions removed the ability to formally defect from the Church.” So did being Catholic only became indelible after 1983? I’m actually curious to know whether there is a theological justification for “Once Catholic Always Catholic”.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Nope. Actually there had only a very small ‘blip’ of time in which the ‘ability’ to defect actually existed in history, due to a pastoral decision by some bishops (thus, not under any kind of 'infallibility charism) because it was thought that it might be helpful to those who rejected the Church to be able to ‘leave’. It was pretty soon seen that such thinking was not helpful and so Canon Law reflected this in removing the ability altogether. Remember that while Canon Law is not itself infallible and never claims to be. Canon Law is NOT equivalent to “the teachings of the Catholic Church”. THAT would be the Magesterium.
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Sy_Noe
Guest
Bingo!
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Sy_Noe
Guest
Tantum ergo, but if I read Thorolfr’s post correctly, I didn’t think the main question was whether or not both Catholics and Lutherans are Christian. But more along the lines of why in the Catholic Church does Baptism make one a Catholic forever whether they want to be one or not since the Trinitarian Baptismal form is what is considered to be needed to make one a Christian and such Baptisms performed elsewhere are accepted by the Catholic Church. Anyway Thorolfr may have understood your answer but I’m still not myself clear why a Catholic Church Trinitarian Baptism has to be different and means it ties a person to being a Catholic even if they don’'t want to be? Why can’t Trinitarian Baptism no matter the Christian community it’s performed in mean the same? As Thorolfr said, a Christian. Is it just because since the Catholic Church considers itself the one true Church, so those of us baptized in it are considered both Christian and Catholic? And can’t officially leave as others can their churches/ecclesial communities? Take myself for instance. If I regularly worshiped in or even joined TEC or UCC or ELCA or PCUSA, no matter how I might consider myself, I would still be a Catholic in the eyes of the Catholic Church is my understanding. As bad of a one or worse than I am considered now but still a Catholic due to my Baptism.
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Thorolfr
Guest
I wonder why the Catholic Church doesn’t consider someone baptized in a Lutheran church to be permanently and indelibly Lutheran which it obviously doesn’t since such people are allowed to convert to Catholicism. But someone baptized in the Catholic Church is considered permanently and indelibly Catholic.
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ComplineSanFran
Guest
Spot on. You summed up the question perfectly.
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Contarini
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Because the Catholic Church claims to be, well, the Catholic Church.
I wonder why the Catholic Church doesn’t consider someone baptized in a Lutheran church to be permanently and indelibly Lutheran which it obviously doesn’t since such people are allowed to convert to Catholicism. But someone baptized in the Catholic Church is considered permanently and indelibly Catholic.
We all agree, surely, that all baptism is baptism into the Catholic Church.
The question is how far the Roman Communion can be identified with the Catholic Church. But it shouldn’t be surprising that the Roman Communion does in fact claim to be the Catholic Church. So I find your wonder to be a bit odd.
Edwin
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Thorolfr
Guest
I see what you’re saying although Lutherans, of course, would say that we’ve been baptized into the “catholic church,” not the “Catholic Church.” That’s why when we recite the Apostles’ Creed, we say, “I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church…”, etc. and I’m sure that the c’s in “catholic church” have been left lower case on purpose.
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Contarini
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I oppose this typographical convention, because I think it lets everybody off the hook by pretending that there are two completely separate things under discussion, when really there are rival definitions of one thing.I see what you’re saying although Lutherans, of course, would say that we’ve been baptized into the “catholic church,” not the “Catholic Church.” That’s why when we recite the Apostles’ Creed, we say, “I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church…”, etc. and I’m sure that the c’s in “catholic church” have been left lower case on purpose.
Edwin
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Novocastrian
Guest
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OraLabora
Guest
The way I see it, and I can’t claim to speak authoritatively here, you were validly baptized into Christ’s Church, which subsists entirely in the Catholic Church (which includes the Roman Church and the other 22 sui juris Churches in communion with Rome).
I wonder why the Catholic Church doesn’t consider someone baptized in a Lutheran church to be permanently and indelibly Lutheran which it obviously doesn’t since such people are allowed to convert to Catholicism. But someone baptized in the Catholic Church is considered permanently and indelibly Catholic.
But while you are part of the “Catholic” Church, you are in imperfect communion due to the heresies of the separated Churches (note: the Church does not consider you a heretic, assuming you were baptized and raised as a Lutheran; she does not impose the sin of heresy on those who did not cause the heresy in the first place, but were simply born into that Church or joined it without full knowledge about the true nature of the Catholic Church).
You therefore cannot “undo” your baptism and cease to belong, albeit imperfectly, to Christ’s Church.
What you can do, is grow into assenting to the fullness of revelation and seek entry into full communion, through RCIA and confirmation. While the Church does not teach that being Lutheran excludes any hope of salvation, it surely teaches that becoming Catholic facilitates salvation, which is why it is a Catholic’s duty to evangelize (but not proselytize). For most of us, that means trying to live up to the expectations that come with being Catholic so that we may shine as an example, and of course praying fervently for the conversion of others (including Catholics who themselves are in imperfect communion because they reject some teachings of the Church).
My wife, BTW, is Anglican, so this perhaps colours my thinking somewhat, but I firmly believe that proselytization has more negative effects than positive, and that evangelization is best done through one’s own inner conversion, because it is through that conversion that the Gospel is brought to life and is able to be shown in action, to others, rather than being mere words in a book. And in fact I consider my wife to be a good and devout Christian, and it is often she who illuminates the Gospel for me by putting it into action. Even Catholics can learn from the faith of non-Catholic Christians if one has an open mind!
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Zoltan_Cobalt
Guest
No.
The document was directed to Luther, condemning his errors. It was not a teaching document.
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Tomdstone
Guest
the document says that everyone is bound by it, not just Martin Luther. It specifically says that " all the faithful of both sexes must regard them as condemned"
“With the advice and consent of these our venerable brothers, with mature deliberation on each and every one of the above theses, and by the authority of almighty God, the blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and our own authority, we condemn, reprobate, and reject completely each of these theses or errors as either heretical, scandalous, false, offensive to pious ears or seductive of simple minds, and against Catholic truth. By listing them, we decree and declare that all the faithful of both sexes must regard them as condemned, reprobated, and rejected . . . We restrain all in the virtue of holy obedience and under the penalty of an automatic major excommunication…”
papalencyclicals.net/Leo10/l10exdom.htm
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