Should ex-Mormons keep their temple oaths?

[SSTeacher]

Publisher;5873626:

A Christian’s word should be their bond…their word was given freely.

At the time I made those promises I was not a Christian - I was a Mormon.

PaulDupre;5875563:

At the time I made those promises I was not a Christian - I was a Mormon.

Mormons ARE christians:thumbsup:

Annie B;5875665:

Mormons ARE christians:thumbsup:

Sorry, but no. These days they are taught to think they are Christians, but they are not.

PaulDupre;5875726:

Sorry, but no. These days they are taught to think they are Christians, but they are not.

Sorry, but yes However, I really expected no other response than “no” from most people here (who are not LDS).

I’m inclined to the view that Latter–day Saints are Christians. I know next to nothing about the doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter–day Saints but it’s hard not to notice that they’ve seen fit to include the name of Jesus Christ in their formal title so that would suggest that they seek to identify with Him, at the very least. But I suppose I could be wrong. I guess it depends upon how one defines and understands the word, “Christian.”

Do all Latter–day Saints consider themselves to be Christians or do some prefer not to be addressed as such as has been suggested?

As far as I know the Catholic Church hasn’t formally declared that Latter–day Saints are not Christians. Am I correct in thinking this?

Inquiringly,
Mick

 

[higherednerd]

In the olden days they called themselves Mormons, not Christians. But in recent decades the term Christian has been stressed. I would say that they are definitely a branch of the Christian tradition, although their theology and Christology puts them outside the pale of mainstream Christian theology.

 

[Catholic20064]

In the olden days they called themselves Mormons, not Christians. But in recent decades the term Christian has been stressed. I would say that they are definitely a branch of the Christian tradition, although their theology and Christology puts them outside the pale of mainstream Christian theology.

That’s what I tend to believe as well.

 

[SSTeacher]

In the olden days they called themselves Mormons, not Christians. But in recent decades the term Christian has been stressed. I would say that they are definitely a branch of the Christian tradition, although their theology and Christology puts them outside the pale of mainstream Christian theology.

So, as far as you are concerned, they are Christians, right?

Peace,
Mick

 

[higherednerd]

I wrestle with the question of whether Utah Mormonism is Christian or not. (there are other types of Mormonism, btw). I’m not sure to what extent a faulty understanding of Christology disqualifies a believer, since so many people in “Christian” churches have so many different ideas about Him. I’m not sure where to draw the line. No two ways about it, Utah Mormonism is a very different religion from Catholicism or Protestantism.

 

[SSTeacher]

I wrestle with the question of whether Utah Mormonism is Christian or not. (there are other types of Mormonism, btw). I’m not sure to what extent a faulty understanding of Christology disqualifies a believer, since so many people in “Christian” churches have so many different ideas about Him. I’m not sure where to draw the line. No two ways about it, Utah Mormonism is a very different religion from Catholicism or Protestantism.

I appreciate your honesty.

Gratefully,
Mick

 

[Annie_B]

Do all Latter–day Saints consider themselves to be Christians or do some prefer not to be addressed as such as has been suggested?

:

I am guessing that ALL people of any one religion/denomination do not believe exactly the same thing about every single point of their religion. I got the following definition of “Christian” at dictionary.com : My personal belief is that the very word “Christian” itself describes a follower of Christ.
Annie

Chris⋅tian
  /ˈkrɪstʃən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kris-chuhn] Show IPA
Use Christian in a Sentence
See web results for Christian
See images of Christian
–adjective

1. of, pertaining to, or derived from Jesus Christ or His teachings: a Christian faith.
2. of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to the religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ: Spain is a Christian country.
3. of or pertaining to Christians: many Christian deaths in the Crusades.
4. exhibiting a spirit proper to a follower of Jesus Christ; Christlike: She displayed true Christian charity.
5. decent; respectable: They gave him a good Christian burial.
6. human; not brutal; humane: Such behavior isn’t Christian.
   –noun
7. a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity.
8. a person who exemplifies in his or her life the teachings of Christ: He died like a true Christian.
9. a member of any of certain Protestant churches, as the Disciples of Christ and the Plymouth Brethren.

10. the hero of Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress.

11. a male given name.

 

[Anna_Scott]

I’m inclined to the view that Latter–day Saints are Christians. I know next to nothing about the doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter–day Saints but it’s hard not to notice that they’ve seen fit to include the name of Jesus Christ in their formal title so that would suggest that they seek to identify with Him, at the very least. But I suppose I could be wrong. I guess it depends upon how one defines and understands the word, “Christian.”

Do all Latter–day Saints consider themselves to be Christians or do some prefer not to be addressed as such as has been suggested?

As far as I know the Catholic Church hasn’t formally declared that Latter–day Saints are not Christians. Am I correct in thinking this?

Inquiringly,
Mick

Hi Mick:

It’s been a long time. Good to run into you again.

I think the question of keeping temple oaths is difficult for anyone to answer, other than the person who has resigned from the LDS Church. I think discovering the truth about Mormonism, can definitely have an impact on a person’s decision regarding the temple oaths.

As to whether or not Mormons are Christian: Many sects throughout history have called themselves Christians. The Gnostics and Adoptionists come to mind.

Mormons have the same right, as any other sect, to call themselves Christians.

However, the Mormon Christianity is not in line with Christianity in Catholicism, Orthodoxy, or Protestantism.

These are a few quotes from Mormon sources regarding their view of Christ:

Mormon Apostle, Orson Pratt, in his book titled, The Seer, at page 158:

"…The fleshly body of Jesus required a Mother as well as a Father. Therefore, the Father and Mother of Jesus, according to the flesh, must have been associated together in the capacity of Husband and Wife;

hence the Virgin Mary must have been, for the time being, the lawful wife of God the Father. Inasmuch as God was the first HUSBAND TO HER (Mary), it may be that He only gave her to be the wife of Joseph while in this mortal state, and that He intended after the resurrection to again take her as one of his own wives to raise up immortal spirits in eternity…"

Mormon Apostle Orson Pratt, in his book titled, The Seer, page 172:

“…the great Messiah who was the founder of the Christian religion was a Polygamist.the Messiah chose to take upon himself his seed; and by marrying many honorable wives himself, show to all future generations that he approved the plurality of Wives under Christian dispensation… The son followed the example of his Father, and became the great Bridegroom to whom kings’ daughters and many of the honorable Wives were to be married. We have also proved that both God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ inherit their wives in eternity as well as in time…”

LDS President Gordon B. Hinckley, June 4, 1998:

“The traditional Christ of who they speak in not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak had been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.” (Church News, June, 20 1998, p. 7.)

LDS Church’s 147th General Conference, General Authority Bernard P. Brockbank:

“…It is true that many of the Christian churches worship A DIFFERENT JESUS CHRIST than is worshiped by the Mormons…” (“The Ensign,” May 1977, p. 26.)

Anna

 

[SSTeacher]

Hi Mick:

It’s been a long time. Good to run into you again.

I think the question of keeping temple oaths is difficult for anyone to answer, other than the person who has resigned from the LDS Church. I think discovering the truth about Mormonism, can definitely have an impact on a person’s decision regarding the temple oaths.

Anna

Hey Anna,

Peace be with you. I know you’re much more knowledgeable in this area than I am. I’ve only come onto this thread because I’ve recently noticed what seems to me to be rather more “Mormon bashing” than is usual going on around me.

As to whether or not Mormons are Christian: Many sects throughout history have called themselves Christians. The Gnostics and Adoptionists come to mind.

Mormons have the same right, as any other sect, to call themselves Christians.

I agree.

However, the Mormon Christianity is not in line with Christianity in Catholicism, Orthodoxy, or Protestantism.

I won’t disagree. But I’d add that Catholicism, Orthodoxy and Protestantism are not in line with each other, either. So I’m wondering where that line actually is.

Musingly,
Mick

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;5877713:

Do all

Latter–day Saints consider themselves to be Christians or do some prefer not to be addressed as such as has been suggested?I am guessing that ALL people of any one religion/denomination do not believe exactly the same thing about every single point of their religion. I got the following definition of “Christian” at dictionary.com : My personal belief is that the very word “Christian” itself describes a follower of Christ.
Annie

Chris⋅tian
  /ˈkrɪstʃən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kris-chuhn] Show IPA
Use Christian in a Sentence
See web results for Christian
See images of Christian
–adjective

1. of, pertaining to, or derived from Jesus Christ or His teachings: a Christian faith.
2. of, pertaining to, believing in, or belonging to the religion based on the teachings of Jesus Christ: Spain is a Christian country.
3. of or pertaining to Christians: many Christian deaths in the Crusades.
4. exhibiting a spirit proper to a follower of Jesus Christ; Christlike: She displayed true Christian charity.
5. decent; respectable: They gave him a good Christian burial.
6. human; not brutal; humane: Such behavior isn’t Christian.
   –noun
7. a person who believes in Jesus Christ; adherent of Christianity.
8. a person who exemplifies in his or her life the teachings of Christ: He died like a true Christian.
9. a member of any of certain Protestant churches, as the Disciples of Christ and the Plymouth Brethren.

10. the hero of Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress.

11. a male given name.

Fair enough. Well, if one accepts that the widely differing presuppositions held by both individuals and faith communities lead to widely differing definitions of the word “Christian,” I don’t understand why one would see it as necessary to correct somebody who isn’t a part of one’s own group whenever he or she declares, “Hey, your group isn’t Christian!”

Perhaps I ought to start a new thread?

Cordially,
Mick

 

[xixxvmcm85]

To the OP:

Not necessarily.

Yes, we while in the capacity of members of the LDS Church made a covenant to not divulge specific parts of the Endowment, but we also made a covenant to give our time and talents to the Church and to live the law of consecration. Oddly enough, I don’t see Latter-day Saints claiming that ex-Mormons who took out their Endowment should continue attending the LDS church, continue giving tithes and time to the Church, etc. Why should the oath to secrecy be any different?

Personally, I don’t divulge information about the Endowment out of respect to those who do believe. Most people who ask about it, it seems, do so out of a desire to disrespect the religious rituals of others. I don’t care to have any part in that. I’ve spoken, very descriptively, about the Temple only to two very close friends who I know were asking out of mere curiosity. Besides those two instances, the only time I’ve spoken about what goes on in the Temple is to deny particular rumors.

 

[Catholic20064]

To the OP:

Not necessarily.

Yes, we while in the capacity of members of the LDS Church made a covenant to not divulge specific parts of the Endowment, but we also made a covenant to give our time and talents to the Church and to live the law of consecration. Oddly enough, I don’t see Latter-day Saints claiming that ex-Mormons who took out their Endowment should continue attending the LDS church, continue giving tithes and time to the Church, etc. Why should the oath to secrecy be any different?

Personally, I don’t divulge information about the Endowment out of respect to those who do believe. Most people who ask about it, it seems, do so out of a desire to disrespect the religious rituals of others. I don’t care to have any part in that. I’ve spoken, very descriptively, about the Temple only to two very close friends who I know were asking out of mere curiosity. Besides those two instances, the only time I’ve spoken about what goes on in the Temple is to deny particular rumors.

The only place I’ll discuss it is on the internet because it is so easy to find it on the net anyway.

 

[Kdesiel]

When I left the Mormon Church my Bishop and Stake President suggested my excommunication. Part of being a “Worthy” member of the LDS Church is your willingness to accept, at that time Gordon B Hinckley, and the Quorum of the Twelve as Prophets, Seers, and Revelators. I no longer could sustain or support those men as such so it was requested of me to resign my membership to the Church. However I did have to take the necessary steps to have my name “Stricken” from their records which is still a battle I fight today. Also I was not going to stand by my oath to consecrate my spiritual gifts, talents, and temporal possessions to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day saints.

Its apples and hand grenades, the debate with Priests and confessions and ex-Mormons and temple vows. Confessions hold information that is potentially damaging to an individual. This information is Sacred to that person in such it is their “sins” their wrong doings that they in good faith have expressed to their Priest in which they believe can help them with repentance. The Temple vows carry no such damaging information to individual members. Nowhere in the endowment is there anything expressed that is potentially damaging to your character or could be used in judgment against you. Ex-Mormons who choose to divulge the temple ordinances they receive in the Temple are free to do so. The God they made their covenants with they have found to be a false God. If that God is False where is the validity in both his teachings and his promises? If it be a false God he cannot uphold his part of the covenant. Covenants are a two way promise, I promise to follow the precepts set forth to me, God promises to impart blessings. If it be a false God then there is no authority or power present to grant validity to those Oaths. If you were to renounce your citizenship to The United States of America, you no longer would be required to uphold your promise’s you made while reciting the Pledge of Allegiance right? No you wouldn’t. Such it is with covenants, if the God in which you made those covenants with turned out to be a false God, and nonexistent God the point of honoring oaths to him would be invalid. Where confession is concerned, if a Priest does leave the Church he may no longer have to worry about the oaths he’s made with the God he has chosen to abandon but he still has both an implied and expressed bond or oath to those who came to him for confession to keep that information from going public or being divulged.
If I talk about my Temple experiences no one is getting hurt, marriages don’t end, people don’t get fired, and judgment is not passed onto anyone else but me. If I am a Priest and I divulge confessions to others someone else may in fact have to endure hardship due to my actions.
My Temple experiences were good; I still hold a certain amount of reverence towards them. I won’t speak about the Temple unless someone in earnest asks, and asks looking for answers and or clarification, and I do that with honesty and reverence.

 

[PaulDupre]

Yes, we while in the capacity of members of the LDS Church made a covenant to not divulge specific parts of the Endowment, but we also made a covenant to give our time and talents to the Church and to live the law of consecration. Oddly enough, I don’t see Latter-day Saints claiming that ex-Mormons who took out their Endowment should continue attending the LDS church, continue giving tithes and time to the Church, etc. Why should the oath to secrecy be any different?

Good point!

 

[Jea9]

I’m inclined to the view that Latter–day Saints are Christians. I know next to nothing about the doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter–day Saints but it’s hard not to notice that they’ve seen fit to include the name of Jesus Christ in their formal title so that would suggest that they seek to identify with Him, at the very least. But I suppose I could be wrong. I guess it depends upon how one defines and understands the word, “Christian.”

Do all Latter–day Saints consider themselves to be Christians or do some prefer not to be addressed as such as has been suggested?

As far as I know the Catholic Church hasn’t formally declared that Latter–day Saints are not Christians. Am I correct in thinking this?

Inquiringly,
Mick

I’d say the Catholic Church HAS declared LDS are not Christians, formally. As an ex-mormon, coming into the Catholic Church, my LDS baptism was not a valid, Christian baptism. This stems from their view on the Trinity, in that they are three distinct persons and are one only in their goal.

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;5877713:

I’m inclined to the view that Latter–day Saints are

Christians. I know next to nothing about the doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter–day Saints but it’s hard not to notice that they’ve seen fit to include the name of Jesus Christ in their formal title so that would suggest that they seek to identify with Him, at the very least. But I suppose I could be wrong. I guess it depends upon how one defines and understands the word, “Christian.”

Do all Latter–day Saints consider themselves to be Christians or do some prefer not to be addressed as such as has been suggested?

As far as I know the Catholic Church hasn’t formally declared that Latter–day Saints are not Christians. Am I correct in thinking this?

Inquiringly,
Mick
:thumbsup:I’d say the Catholic Church HAS declared LDS are not Christians, formally. As an ex-mormon, coming into the Catholic Church, my LDS baptism was not a valid, Christian baptism. This stems from their view on the Trinity, in that they are three distinct persons and are one only in their goal.

That’s a reasonable inference but an inference has no great weight. I’m looking for a definitive statement or declaration in writing. I can’t find anything in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Peace,
Mick

 

[TheosisM]

That’s a reasonable inference but an inference has no great weight. I’m looking for a definitive statement or declaration in writing. I can’t find anything in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Peace,
Mick

I don’t believe the Catholic Church has formally declared a judgment on whether every single church is Christian or not. And it’s probably better that way.

 

[Jea9]

That’s a reasonable inference but an inference has no great weight. I’m looking for a definitive statement or declaration in writing. I can’t find anything in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Peace,
Mick

This is not magesterial, but forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=34791&highlight=mormon+baptism+valid Fr Serpa addresses it here.

And, while not in the Catechism, this should be sufficient for you…well it is for me anyway. vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20010605_battesimo_mormoni_en.html

 

[PaulDupre]

That’s a reasonable inference but an inference has no great weight. I’m looking for a definitive statement or declaration in writing. I can’t find anything in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Peace,
Mick

Why would the Catholic Church bother to put any reference to the LDS church in the Cathecism? The LDS church is just a mosquito on the butt of the world. There are more JWs or SDAs that there are Mormons in the world, and we don’t mention the JWs or the SDAs in the CCC either.

But perhaps the LDS are included in this passage:

Throughout the ages, there have been so-called “private” revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.

Christian faith cannot accept “revelations” that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such “revelations”.

• Catechism of the Catholic Church, Paragraph 67

 

[SSTeacher]

SSTeacher;5880388:

That’s a reasonable inference but an inference has no great weight. I’m looking for a definitive

statement or declaration in writing. I can’t find anything in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Peace,
Mick
:thumbsup:Why would the Catholic Church bother to put any reference to the LDS church in the Cathecism? The LDS church is just a mosquito on the butt of the world. There are more JWs or SDAs that there are Mormons in the world, and we don’t mention the JWs or the SDAs in the CCC either.

But perhaps the LDS are included in this passage:

Throughout the ages, there have been so-called “private” revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.

Christian faith cannot accept “revelations” that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such “revelations”.

• Catechism of the Catholic Church, Paragraph 67

In my opinion, the Catechism of the Catholic Church reflects post–conciliar Catholicism, the spirit of which seemingly rejects the triumphalism that was often characteristic of the Catholic Church prior to Vatican II, but which still occasionally surfaces as evidenced by the fact that some Catholics openly declare that Latter–day Saints aren’t Christians. I had been surmising that the spirit of Vatican II might have been directed toward the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter–day Saints in the same way that it has been directed toward Islam. Paragraph 841 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church states:

The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims.

So it occurred to me that if the Catholic Church saw fit to portray Muslims in a positive light in the Catechism of the Catholic Church perhaps Latter–day Saints might have gotten a good write–up, also, especially considering that Muslims completely reject Jesus Christ and Latter–day Saints include Him in their nomenclature.

Still, apparently I was much mistaken. Thanks for your help, though.

Appreciatively,
Mick