Should gay men be able to take communion?

[tskrobacz]

I do not see how that applies here. Neither mortal sin, nor sacrilege, is a gnat. They are the “weightier matters of the law”.

The question posed by the OP does not presume that the man is actively engaged in sexual behavior - in fact it assumes nothing. It is only those responding here that choose to make this into a matter of mortal sin.

 

[Aramis]

Hi, I saw this article when I was reading online, its about a guy being denied communion by the priest because he lives together with his boyfriend. Can a priest do that?

Should gay men be able to take communion?
A Dutch Prince of the Carnival was snubbed by the Catholic Church recently when a priest refused to grant him holy communion because he lives together with his boyfriend.

Link: weblogs.nrc.nl/discussion/2010/02/26/should-gay-men-be-able-to-take-communion/

Old news…

The church says those with same gender attraction who are unable to be attracted to opposite gender persons as well should be celibate and chaste. All unmarried persons are called to chastity as well.

Since the church can not and will not consider two men married to each other, it’s fornication and sodomy for them to live “as a married couple,” and willful fornication if knowingly engaging in same.

 

[babylonsfalling]

Temptations are not sinful, Temptation is not a sin, neither is homosexuality, temptation becomes sinful when you yield to it.

There’s a distinction.

You can be tempted to give help to a homeless man or tempted to get stoned out of your gourd. One is sinful and one isn’t…or you could say that the temptation to get stoned is “of a sinful nature” if you wish, but not the type of sin that would be held against you. Sin is definitely “in the mix” when it comes to being tempted though.

But regardless of what verbiage you use, the temptation is not the kind of sin that would be held against you. It exists independently of you, “sin came into the world” as an invading force. It’s sinful that a crack baby is addicted to crack, but obviously not the crack baby’s fault. It’s sinful that a person is tempted to homosexuality but not the person’s fault.

Homosexuality in the behavioral sense is always a sin. In sense of being tempted by homosexuality, it’s a sin but not the type that would be held against you anymore than a crack baby’s addiction.

The person tempted to homosexuality and the crack baby are both victims of sin.

 

[Soldier_Of_God]

What is harder though, is to try to live and strive a holy life, with people judging you, that doesn’t even know you, nor care to learn and understand the struggles and the heat that we take from everyone with every waking moments of our lives.

I think you’ve make a very important observation here. It’s striving to live a holy life, inspite of personal limitations, is the important consideration. If you are truly trying to live in teachings of the Church and are trying to emluate Christ’s example in the face of hardship, that’s to be enthusiastically lauded. A state of grace is God’s gift of salvation granted to sinners for their salvation. However, for such grace to be applicable one must truly be penitent in their peccancy.

 

[Corki]

i never did understand what “near occasion of sin” meant.

Near occasions of sin are simply those situations where we know we will face strong temptation. For example, if you are someone tempted to gamble excessively, hanging out in a casino would be a near occassion of sin.

Some occassions of sin are hard to avoid but when we can avoid them, we should.

That’s why, for example, it is not a good idea for a couple, man and woman or same-sex, to live together if they have romantic feelings for each other. The romantic attraction coupled with the fact that they are alone together and see each other in less-than-modest circumstances can be a strong temptation - a near occasion of sin - to act sinfully or to lust.

 

[Corki]

The question posed by the OP does not presume that the man is actively engaged in sexual behavior - in fact it assumes nothing. It is only those responding here that choose to make this into a matter of mortal sin.

Engaging in sexual behavior is a sin. But so is holding one’s self out as a party in a homosexual “couple”. The priest may have had knowledge of the former but he was justified in withholding Communion due to the latter.

 

[lisahiku]

soulhunter…thanks for your kind words!

 

[Matthew_Holford]

soulhunter182 you say that the same-sex relationship in which you live is not sinful. That is is not for you to decide. We could all decide for ourselves that our sins are not in fact sins. Taking that line would be harmful and destructive of our souls. We fool no one but ourselves. God is not fooled and sees everything in our hearts.
You’re right and I did not decide on this. I followed what they said on this matter.

Bishops and priests, according to some of your posts, say that your state is not sinful.
Yes, provided that I or we do not cross certain boundaries.

Their statements would probably not stand up under close scrutiny.
Really? How do you know? Are you a Bishop? I’ll take the Bishop’s answer over yours anyday.

Unfortunately, many bishops and priests give wrong or incomplete catechesis.
Well, I got my answers from catholic apologist here in the forums and form the CBCP, Catholic Bishop Conference of the Philippines. Who are now mainly fighting the evils of the RH Bill. I got my answers not form one nor two priest, but from a lot of apologist, theologian, priest and bishops. The CBCP supports me, that as long as we live in celibacy then we aren’t living sinful nor unchaste lives. If you say that the CBCP is wrong? Then it’s like your saying that the arch diocese of manila is in error, who for many years now are fighting social evils.

Before telling us any more that we do not, and cannot, understand it behoves you to show us where the Church teaches that your current state in life is not sinful.
Yes, unless you’re a homosexual man trying to live and strive a holy life, it be difficult for you to understand, unless you look at us with eyes and hearts of compassion instead of judgement. I am not equipped with the proper theological knowledge on these matters that is why I sought the advices of the experts on this subject matter. And these people did not judge us nor condemn our lifestyle as sinful, unlike what you’re doing. Like what I said earlier, you can ask the apologist opinion on this, specially Fr. Serpa. And contrary to popular belief, we are people too, created by the all mighty that was given a heavy cross to bear that we did not ask for, but because we love him, we are greatful for this cross and we try to bear the suffering from everyone with gladness and joy in our hearts, and most of all we try to bear them in silence. Its not between us and the poeple of the world who are always ready to judge and condemn us, but its between us and God anyways, He see’s in secret our suffering and injustice done to us and how we bear them

Yes, even whole episcopal conferences can get it wrong. I am a member of an organisation that engages with my country’s episcopal conference regarding their watered-down catechesis of the Catholic faith.

I do not stand in judgement of you. All I try to do is uphold the teachings of the Catholic Church.

You were asked to demonstrate where the Catholic Church teaches that your state in life is not sinful and that it is OK. It could be that you have not done this because you do not wish to do so. Rather, I suspect it is because you are unable to do so.

 

[soulhunter182]

There’s a distinction.

You can be tempted to give help to a homeless man or tempted to get stoned out of your gourd. One is sinful and one isn’t…or you could say that the temptation to get stoned is “of a sinful nature” if you wish, but not the type of sin that would be held against you. Sin is definitely “in the mix” when it comes to being tempted though.

But regardless of what verbiage you use, the temptation is not the kind of sin that would be held against you. It exists independently of you, “sin came into the world” as an invading force. It’s sinful that a crack baby is addicted to crack, but obviously not the crack baby’s fault. It’s sinful that a person is tempted to homosexuality but not the person’s fault.

Homosexuality in the behavioral sense is always a sin. In sense of being tempted by homosexuality, it’s a sin but not the type that would be held against you anymore than a crack baby’s addiction.

The person tempted to homosexuality and the crack baby are both victims of sin.

you’re wrong, homosexual temptations aren’t actual sins. They are still temptations, and helping someone is not a temptation. All good things comes from God, we cannot merit ourselves even a single act of kindness because all goodness is due to HIM. The desire to help someone comes form him, and its not a temptation.

 

[soulhunter182]

Yes, even whole episcopal conferences can get it wrong. I am a member of an organisation that engages with my country’s episcopal conference regarding their watered-down catechesis of the Catholic faith.

I do not stand in judgement of you. All I try to do is uphold the teachings of the Catholic Church.

You were asked to demonstrate where the Catholic Church teaches that your state in life is not sinful and that it is OK. It could be that you have not done this because you do not wish to do so. Rather, I suspect it is because you are unable to do so.

I do not stand in judgement of you.
Yes you are in judgment, you may say that you arent, but your post meant that you are. It is not that I refuse to do so, its because I am not an expert on these matters and you guys are. If I post something, you guys would definitely find ways and point out errors. You guys are pretty good at that. What I am saying is that, I will not play your game in your tems because it’s not an even playing field. Since you say how equip you are with knowledge, well I am not that knowledgeable and I’m not that smart either compare to you guys. That is why for the knowledge stuff I redirect you to catholic answers apologist, you can ask them. They’d be more than adequate to engage in theological debates with you than I.

All I try to do is uphold the teachings of the Catholic Church
Right because you have all the authority to uphold the catholic teachings of the church and we as homosexuals do not.

You were asked to demonstrate where the Catholic Church teaches that your state in life is not sinful and that it is OK. It could be that you have not done this because you do not wish to do so. Rather, I suspect it is because you are unable to do so.
I have not done so, because I am not a self proclaim expert, I have gotten it from the pious people who actually are. I’ve asked those questions that you have asked me, and they told me a lot of things. I did not wish to engage to a theological debate on these because like what I said, i am an expert like you guys claim to be. Although one thing that I realized, is that pious people wouldn’t be doing what you guys are asking me to do and such, they speak with compassion and humility which I do see here. What you guys want it to prove yourselves right and feed your spiritual pride like that pharisees before you, form which I will not. If you want answers you can ask the apologist, the CBCP, the arch diocese like I have. and you can even write a letter to the holy see. They are the proper authority on these, not you not me, unless your the Pope.

We all know what the deal is? You’ll always see us as sinful homosexuals and nothing that we ever do will be geared towards chastity and heaven, all the things that we do will condemn us to hell, and the righteous ones like you will look down upon us in heaven saying “We told you so…” You don’t want answers, you just want to be right. Pride blinds you, nothing I or other people say is right, and will never be right, in your eyes. I have answered your questions, more than I should have or would have, more or less you’d still have a few stones to trow at me, I’ll just leave it Jesus. He knows what in our hearts, our intentions, our thoughts even before we make them. I’ll pray for you, and God bless.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

I do not stand in judgement of you.
Yes you are in judgment, you may say that you arent, but your post meant that you are. It is not that I refuse to do so, its because I am not an expert on these matters and you guys are. If I post something, you guys would definitely find ways and point out errors. You guys are pretty good at that. What I am saying is that, I will not play your game in your tems because it’s not an even playing field. Since you say how equip you are with knowledge, well I am not that knowledgeable and I’m not that smart either compare to you guys. That is why for the knowledge stuff I redirect you to catholic answers apologist, you can ask them. They’d be more than adequate to engage in theological debates with you than I.

I do not stand in judgement of you. You cannot know what is in my heart and mind. I am simply trying to look at this from the Church’s teaching. When someone is on the defensive as much as you are it is often a symptom that they know they are at fault. So, please do not try to state what my reasons are.

All I try to do is uphold the teachings of the Catholic Church
Right because you have all the authority to uphold the catholic teachings of the church and we as homosexuals do not.

I am not the Magisterium. Of course I am not. However, we all have a responsibility as Catholics to uphold the Church’s teachings. It is not something that is reserved to Her sacred ministers. It is a responsibility we all have.

You were asked to demonstrate where the Catholic Church teaches that your state in life is not sinful and that it is OK. It could be that you have not done this because you do not wish to do so. Rather, I suspect it is because you are unable to do so.
I have not done so, because I am not a self proclaim expert, I have gotten it from the pious people who actually are. I’ve asked those questions that you have asked me, and they told me a lot of things. I did not wish to engage to a theological debate on these because like what I said, i am an expert like you guys claim to be. Although one thing that I realized, is that pious people wouldn’t be doing what you guys are asking me to do and such, they speak with compassion and humility which I do see here. What you guys want it to prove yourselves right and feed your spiritual pride like that pharisees before you, form which I will not. If you want answers you can ask the apologist, the CBCP, the arch diocese like I have. and you can even write a letter to the holy see. They are the proper authority on these, not you not me, unless your the Pope.

We all know what the deal is? You’ll always see us as sinful homosexuals and nothing that we ever do will be geared towards chastity and heaven, all the things that we do will condemn us to hell, and the righteous ones like you will look down upon us in heaven saying “We told you so…” You don’t want answers, you just want to be right. Pride blinds you, nothing I or other people say is right, and will never be right, in your eyes. I have answered your questions, more than I should have or would have, more or less you’d still have a few stones to trow at me, I’ll just leave it Jesus. He knows what in our hearts, our intentions, our thoughts even before we make them. I’ll pray for you, and God bless.

It isn’t necessary to be a theological expert to understand and defend the Church’s teachings. I am no theological expert. You cannot defend your circumstances by emotional argument. Show where, for example, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, or a papal encyclical teaches that it is right for two homosexual men to live together as a couple even if they abstain from sex.