Should good Catholics live the Amish Lifestyle?

[leonie]

littleportion.org/about-us.html

Here’s a Catholic community that lives very simple, set apart lives. This appeals to me more than the Amish or Plain Catholics.

 

[Ceil-1]

Play means different things at different stages of development. A child of, say, six or eight needs idle play. But a teenager? They do have to keep busy or they look for trouble.

 

[slyboots]

Yup, Amish kids live pretty quiet lives… until they are 16.
Rumspringa!!! Party time, drunkeness, drugs, wildness, parents ignoring that their co-ed teens spend weekends together Friday nights to Sunday nights… you betcha.
beliefnet.com/Faiths/Christianity/2006/05/Partying-With-The-Amish.aspx

How about thinking about a different idea? Plain simple Catholic lives.
How about something like this…
catholicworker.org/communities/commlistall.cfm
blog.beliefnet.com//crunchycon/2009/02/monks-catholic-agrarianism-in.html
catholicrestorationists.wordpress.com/about/
books.google.com/books?id=2ii4AnrkK8IC&dq=catholic+agrarian+movement&source=gbs_navlinks_s

Lots to ponder. But you certainly don’t have to go to the Amish to find what you seek.

 

[Catholic90]

I’d consider the play practice free time. It’s a nice thing to do, but there’s** no physical, productive work involved**. Putting on a play though is certainly better than many other options!

Uh, my son would STRONGLY disagree with you. Their senior high play this year was “West Side Story”. Have you ever seen the Broadway version? All the dancing? In sync? The gym dance scene? The lifts? The jumps from knees to feet? The jumping over 4-5 foot high fences while singing? My son’s high school DID ALL THESE MOVES. They did them WELL. They did them PROFESSIONALLY. There are several “ballerina” scenes where the ballerinas must be lifted by the guys. My son was a lifter, and he and his partner practiced their lifts about an hour a day every day. His partner told him she weighed about 110 pounds. (Why do you think they had practice for 5 hours 6 days a week???) When they performed this play, every member of that cast was in better physical shape than the basketball, football, or baseball team!

 

[leonie]

Uh, my son would STRONGLY disagree with you. Their senior high play this year was “West Side Story”. Have you ever seen the Broadway version? All the dancing? In sync? The gym dance scene? The lifts? The jumps from knees to feet? The jumping over 4-5 foot high fences while singing? My son’s high school DID ALL THESE MOVES. They did them WELL. They did them PROFESSIONALLY. There are several “ballerina” scenes where the ballerinas must be lifted by the guys. My son was a lifter, and he and his partner practiced their lifts about an hour a day every day. His partner told him she weighed about 110 pounds. (Why do you think they had practice for 5 hours 6 days a week???) When they performed this play, every member of that cast was in better physical shape than the basketball, football, or baseball team!

I am not meaning to disparage your son’s production. I’m sure it was wonderful and very athletic. My very talented niece has starred in several musicals in high school that were fantastic.

and, really, if he went into entertainment, you could consider it an apprenticeship of sorts.

What I was trying to do was contrast the modern version of teenhood–which is filled with part time (generally mindless) work and many extra curriculars to keep them busy and entertained with a model in which teens are preparing for their adult work alongside hardworking adults who care about them.

Is that a little clearer? Not really trying to criticize any particular extracurricular.

 

[sanctamaria17]

So, I’ve learned that I’m unclean because:

I don’t wear anything “distinctive”, but I wear jeans and t-shirts, like everyone else my age including (Shock) non-Catholics.

I go to college…therefore, I’m prideful…

I have non-Catholic friends…therefore not keeping myself separate…

I spend my free time playing music and reading…therefore making myself “idle and unproductive”…and the work I do involves office work (an internship, which I would consider an apprenticeship of sorts), waiting tables (to pay my rent and some school fees), and volunteering at a pregnancy center…but it’s not “productive” apparently…

I live in the city away from my family…horror…I must be having promiscuous sex and drinking all the time…even though I’m abstinent from sex and most drinking I’ve done in my life has been at big dinners with my family

I grew up in an Italian-American family and neighborhood, meaning I’ve had tastes of alcohol growing up…therefore my parents are evil for exposing me to “impurity.”

I’m really not trying to be snarky…but using the Scripture to say that all Catholics, ALL Catholics, have to be exactly alike in every way with no distinction because we’re so afraid of the world, when we should be living in it, just not of it, which means knowing how to deal with it instead of hiding is just mind-boggling…

And for those of us “obsessed” with the “education thing” and the “drinking thing”, it was implied that those two things, in and of themselves were wrong and well, there’s a bit of a problem when we need educated Catholics more than ever (pro-life doctors and politicians who are competent, compassionate, and humble would be good things) and when Jesus made wine…well, there’s your answer…

Another aspect to “separate”, that means from sin. It means Christians are called to not be unchaste, to follow the 10 Commandments, to go to Mass, even if it’s all unpopular. But Jesus went out and ate and drank with prostitutes and tax collectors…He did NOT keep himself apart from the world and He also charged the apostles to follow His example…He also criticized the Pharisees for holding to the appearance of holiness without actually being holy while those scorned as sinners were praised for their great faith.

 

[Sabda]

Ceil-1,

You are idolizing these people and putting them up on a pedestal when they don’t necessarily deserve it. Have you ever been in their homes to know exactly what goes on in the home? Just because they wear long dresses remeniscent of the 1800s doesn’t not mean they are purer of heart than the rest of us. Were the people back in the 1800s purer of heart than we are today? Something tells me no, they where not. Keep in mind women did not always wear dresses like that. If you would look at the history of clothes you would find that clothes have evolved over time. Women in the 1800s did not dress like women in the 1500s and they did not dress like women in the 1000s. Those women in turn did not dress like Christian women in Roman times. A form of dress does not make you purer of heart than someone else. Jesus said clean the inside of the cup before you worry about the outside. In other words it’s whats on the inside that matters. Just because someone looks clean on the outside does not make them clean on the inside. Would a devout Christian African woman who is wearing the native dress for her area (I’m thinking of the ones who go bare breasted here) be any less holy than an Amish woman simply because of her dress? You can be holy regardless of what your wearing or not wearing.

 

[leonie]

And for those of us “obsessed” with the “education thing” and the “drinking thing”, it was implied that those two things, in and of themselves were wrong and well, there’s a bit of a problem when we need educated Catholics more than ever (pro-life doctors and politicians who are competent, compassionate, and humble would be good things) and when Jesus made wine…well, there’s your answer…

.

I think Ceil wasn’t necessarily criticizing education in general, but more of the idea that an advanced education is necessary to be holy. Certainly, we want Catholic professionals.

What I read in her posts is that was a paraphrase from Thomas Kempis in The Imitation of Christ in which he says to avoid unnecessary knowledge. I remember being struck by that statement when I read it years ago. In our society, we idealize education and knowledge. It’s a strange idea to us 21st century Americans that some knowledge or even some educational paths can actually distract us from God.

A really good thing to meditate on. Very thought provoking.

To me, it meant that I should spend less time reading Church history and theology and do more praying. It’s a good thing to learn more about the Church and God, but it can be a distraction. After all, it’s fun to learn stuff, but it’s hard to try to change, giving up bad habits and growing in virtue.

 

[leonie]

Here’s that quote from Kempis

leaderu.com/cyber/books/imitation/imb1c01-10.html#RTFToC13

HAVING A HUMBLE OPINION OF SELF
EVERY man naturally desires knowledge; but what good is knowledge without fear of God? Indeed a humble rustic who serves God is better than a proud intellectual who neglects his soul to study the course of the stars. He who knows himself well becomes mean in his own eyes and is not happy when praised by men.

If I knew all things in the world and had not charity, what would it profit me before God Who will judge me by my deeds?

Shun too great a desire for knowledge, for in it there is much fretting and delusion. Intellectuals like to appear learned and to be called wise. Yet there are many things the knowledge of which does little or no good to the soul, and he who concerns himself about other things than those which lead to salvation is very unwise.

Many words do not satisfy the soul; but a good life eases the mind and a clean conscience inspires great trust in God.

The more you know and the better you understand, the more severely will you be judged, unless your life is also the more holy. Do not be proud, therefore, because of your learning or skill. Rather, fear because of the talent given you. If you think you know many things and understand them well enough, realize at the same time that there is much you do not know. Hence, do not affect wisdom, but admit your ignorance. Why prefer yourself to anyone else when many are more learned, more cultured than you?

It’s a worthy endeavor to read the whole chapter.

 

[Sabda]

Here’s that quote from Kempis

leaderu.com/cyber/books/imitation/imb1c01-10.html#RTFToC13

It’s a worthy endeavor to read the whole chapter.

Where would that leave a Saint like Thomas Aquinas or our late holy father John Paul II or even our current holy father Pope Benedict xvI? They were and are clearly well learned? The Church has never said that knowledge is a bad thing. Knowledge is like alchohol. It’s what you do with it that counts. Knowledge in and of itself is not bad. If you use that knowledge for evil than that would be bad. But if you use that knowledge for the greater glory of God and helping out your fellow man than that is a very good thing. God created the whole world and everything in it and it’s very good.

 

[leonie]

Where would that leave a Saint like Thomas Aquinas or our late holy father John Paul II or even our current holy father Pope Benedict xvI? They were and are clearly well learned? The Church has never said that knowledge is a bad thing. Knowledge is like alchohol. It’s what you do with it that counts. Knowledge in and of itself is not bad. If you use that knowledge for evil than that would be bad. But if you use that knowledge for the greater glory of God and helping out your fellow man than that is a very good thing. God created the whole world and everything in it and it’s very good.

I agree completely!!!

But, some people, even clergy and theologians, become distracted by too much knowledge. The point is that the spiritual growth has to accompany the learning or it’s all a waste.

It would be better for the learned man who loses his soul as a result of study (at the expense of spiritual growth) to have remained ignorant.

Of course, the best scenario is a learned devout Catholic. Very doable!!! I hope that I am and my children will fall into this category.

But, our society sometimes emphasizes the learning and not the growth in virtue. So, there’s the contrast with the Amish. Secular society glorifies the learning. The Amish emphasize the religious.

But, hopefully, a Catholic can integrate learning and spiritual growth.

However, in a choice between the secular, Godless value of learning and the limited, God filled Amish culture, the Amish win.

 

[AHapka]

Of course, the best scenario is a learned devout Catholic. Very doable!!! I hope that I am and my children will fall into this category.

Father Corapi is the best example of such a person. 6 university degrees, and yet feels that it means since he has been given more, more is expected of him. And he’s not puffed up about it at all.

That’s exactly how a good Catholic should act.

 

[leonie]

Father Corapi is the best example of such a person. 6 university degrees, and yet feels that it means since he has been given more, more is expected of him. And he’s not puffed up about it at all.

That’s exactly how a good Catholic should act.

I agree. I think Thomas Kempis agrees, too.

But, someone like Richard Dawkins would have been better off without his advanced degrees…

Our education is only valuable in sofar as it leads us to better serve and glorify God.

Learning for learnings’ sake is not a Catholic teaching.

 

[sanctamaria17]

I think Richard Dawkins would be fine with his degrees. It’s more that he’s without God that’s the problem…

 

[leonie]

I think Richard Dawkins would be fine with his degrees. It’s more that he’s without God that’s the problem…

Right! But, you see, that to God, his advanced learning and his intellect is pretty puny and not far off that of the Amish farmer. It has no merit in God’s eyes.

Who do you think God is more pleased with: an Amish farmer with a 8th grade education who lives a virtuous life and loves God or Richard Dawkins with his degrees who mocks God?

Of course, the best scenario is a Fulteen Sheen. Someone with much learning who uses it to bring people closer to God. That’s the Catholic ideal.

Another thought I have is that it all depends on the quality of the education. It’s very possible for an eighth grade education to surpass that of a high school grad.

I love reading and learning. I am grateful for its gift. But, none of my study or reading has made me more holy. Occasionally, I’ll have insights that if I apply them in my conduct, prayer life, or integrate into my thoughts–then I might become more virtuous, more pleasing to God. Or, if it’s God’s will that I use those skills/knowledge to serve my brothers and sisters better, then I’ve used that training to please God.

But, an illiterate housewife who gives all of herself to God by serving her family is as pleasing to God as a surgeon who gives all of himself to God in his work.

The difference is that our society exalts the doctor and not the humble housewife.

I believe that that is near the point that Ceil was trying to make.

If you gain the world, but lose your soul in the process…

 

[Em_in_FL]

So clearly education is not a variable in either direction… probably not worth further debate…

 

[leonie]

So clearly education is not a variable in either direction… probably not worth further debate…

I can feel the sarcasm , so I stick my tongue out

My personal view is that education is a very worthy. I want my kids to be extremely well educated because it will give them more opportunities be financially secure and it will give them more opportunities to evangelize and win the world for Christ!

I don’t think the Catholic view of education matches the Amish view of all. There is no need to limit learning–knowledge shouldn’t lead you away from God, in fact as you learn more about the creation, you should grow to know God better.

But, it doesn’t match the secular view, either. That education is valuable for what it gets you. That all learning is worthy. That learning should be an end itself.

KNOW, LOVE, SERVE!!!

I’m extremely happy to be Catholic.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Uh, my son would STRONGLY disagree with you. Their senior high play this year was “West Side Story”. Have you ever seen the Broadway version? All the dancing? In sync? The gym dance scene? The lifts? The jumps from knees to feet? The jumping over 4-5 foot high fences while singing? My son’s high school DID ALL THESE MOVES. They did them WELL. They did them PROFESSIONALLY. There are several “ballerina” scenes where the ballerinas must be lifted by the guys. My son was a lifter, and he and his partner practiced their lifts about an hour a day every day. His partner told him she weighed about 110 pounds. (Why do you think they had practice for 5 hours 6 days a week???) When they performed this play, every member of that cast was in better physical shape than the basketball, football, or baseball team!

Off topic somewhat but …I LOVE WEST SIDE STORY!. What part did your DS have?

 

[Catholic90]

Off topic somewhat but …I LOVE WEST SIDE STORY!. What part did your DS have?

He was A-Rab, a Jet. He had so much fun doing all the dancing. It was a GREAT experience. (I saw the play all 7 times they performed it!)

 

[chevalier]

That depends completely on the teen. Here was my oldest son’s schedule from March through mid-May:

6:30 am - wake up, shower, dress
7:00 am - leave for school
8:00 am - school begins
2:30 pm - school day ends
3:00 pm - play practice began
8:00 pm - practice ended
M,T,TH,F- come home, eat, homework
W - church youth group from 8-9:30, come home, eat, homework
12 midnight - go to bed

WHAT free time?

I’d be a bit worried about sleep time rather. The minimum is 7 hours and less than 6.5 is not enough.