Should hand holding at the Our Father be a cause for division among the Faithful?

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Walking_Home said:
Hand holding has been around because some laity, priests and bishops have taken it upon themselves to take liberties with the Mass. The comparisons are not foolish–since the GIRM is silent–they are as “valid” as the hand holding.
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It doesn’t matter why it is around. It is not forbidden, and not even a violation of the instructions, unless the priest issues the instruction. And the comparison is very foolish- the gestures you mention have nothing to do with prayer. Many people join hands in prayer.
The only ones directed to do the orans is the priest–not the laity. We are not to be “mini priests” by imitating the priests
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Again personal opinion. Orans is a legitimate prayer posture.

Lux
 
adrift said:
I disagree with your assessment. The GIRM is a positive document that is a fact. It is not a matter of interpretation. It states what can be done. If it tried to do otherwise, I can just imagine the size it would be trying to eliminate unwanted behavior. Walking Home was absolutely correct. I do believe that you should not make judgments by saying it was foolish. That is a personal attack and it was unwarranted and did not add to your opinion.
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WH is not absolutely correct—For one, Archbishop Chaput disagrees. Also the USCCB did not say orans is forbidden when asked directly.

Lux
 
For you men out there, when’s the last time you held hands with another man?

I thought of a funny example. Lets say a man I work with also goes to my church. We’re next to each other at the Lord’s prayer, so he takes my hand to hold it during the our father.

Next day at work, you’re walking down the hall at the same time and he takes your hand and you stroll down the hall holding hands and chatting about the hockey game that was on TV last night.

Something wrong with this picture? LOL
 
I think it’s become so devisive because one group who feels very strongly about it feels pressured to act in the opposite way. Personally, I’ve gotten less shy about refusing to hold someone’s hand: I’m not comfortable with that practice, and I find it unnecessary.
 
Hi,

I agree that no one should pressure anyone to hold a particular posture, especially since there is no position prescribed.

Perhaps this should be carried through that no one should be accused of abuse if they choose to hold hands, pray in orans or fold their hands.

Lux
 
My parish ‘forces’ hand holding. When I say forces I mean it is now such a part of mass that no one will let you clasp your hands and pray.

I was actually admonished by my priest yesterday as I was serving as EMHC and did not stretch 30 odd feet to the nearest parishoner to clasp hands.

I guess next time I must dis-locate the shoulder of the person on my left so we call all have that sense of ‘community’!:eek:
 
iamrefreshed said:
I was actually admonished by my priest yesterday as I was serving as EMHC and did not stretch 30 odd feet to the nearest parishoner to clasp hands.

I guess next time I must dis-locate the shoulder of the person on my left so we call all have that sense of ‘community’!:eek:
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How did you respond? Perhaps you could show him this instruction from the GIRM
The Rite of Peace
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  1. The Rite of Peace follows, by which the Church asks for peace and unity for herself and for the whole human family, and the faithful express to each other their ecclesial communion and mutual charity before communicating in the Sacrament.
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As for the sign of peace to be given, the manner is to be established by Conferences of Bishops in accordance with the culture and customs of the peoples. It is, however, appropriate that each person offer the sign of peace only to those who are nearest and in a sober manner.
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If this instruction is given for the sign of peace, those acrobatics for the Lord’s prayer are definitely out.

Lux
 
Should hand holding at the Our Father be a cause for division among the Faithful?

No.

Is hand holding at the Our Father a cause for division among the Faithful?

Yes.
 
Lux_et_Tenebrae said:
It doesn’t matter why it is around. It is not forbidden, and not even a violation of the instructions, unless the priest issues the instruction. And the comparison is very foolish- the gestures you mention have nothing to do with prayer. Many people join hands in prayer.

Again personal opinion. Orans is a legitimate prayer posture.

Lux
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It doesn’t matter you say—well that attitude does explain the manipulation of our Mass. What does it matter when liberties are taken—after all the GIRM is silent—so its free game based on personal inclinations.

The orans is specified for the priest and you will NOT find it specified for the laity. It is an action proper to the priest—which we are not to imitate.

Code of Canon Law
Can. 907 In the eucharistic celebration deacons and lay persons are not permitted to offer prayers, especially the eucharistic prayer, **or to perform actions **which are proper to the celebrating priest.
 
Lux_et_Tenebrae said:
From Archbishop Chaput of Denver, more of an authoriity than Keating, but still not the GIRM
(the USCCB has stated that there is no posture prescribed for the Lord’s Prayer)
Quote:
The priest stands with his arms outstretched as the prayer begins. The assembly should also stand. There are no options for gestures listed in the General Instruction for this part of the Mass. For many persons, folding their hands during the “Our Father” is the best way to express their prayer. For others, they may hold their hands outstretched. Still others hold hands.

None of these gestures is mandated or forbidden by the Church. So our guiding principles should be respect for the dignity of the Mass, and respect for the freedom of our fellow worshipers.

Lux
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Using Arch. Chaput to back up your position does not add to credibility— since he has no problem participating in the following. So in essence the Arch. does not reflect the go to man for the proper celebration of the Holy Sacrifice.

archden.org/dcr/news.php?e=35&s=4&a=812
 
estesbob said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walking_Home
Using Arch. Chaput to back up your position does not add to credibility— since he has no problem participating in the following. So in essence the Arch. does not reflect the go to man for the proper celebration of the Holy Sacrifice.

archden.org/dcr/news.php?e=35&s=4&a=812

Would it have been OK if it had been in Latin?
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Can Indian drumming be done in Latin.

“Then, like the rumbling of a coming storm, the Indian drumming began. Picking up speed and punctuated by forceful pounding it built to a steady rhythm accented by singing, then faster intense pounding and final singing. As the thrilling song concluded, the congregation responded with raucous applause”.
 
Walking_Home said:
Can Indian drumming be done in Latin.

“Then, like the rumbling of a coming storm, the Indian drumming began. Picking up speed and punctuated by forceful pounding it built to a steady rhythm accented by singing, then faster intense pounding and final singing. As the thrilling song concluded, the congregation responded with raucous applause”.
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Sounds like a great Mass-wish i could have been there.
 
Walking_Home said:
Does sound like your cup of tea—when one no longer cares.
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As opposed to one who cares more about a perfect Mass than one who cares more about receiving the Body and Blood of Christ than critiquing what goes on?

The sad part is that even when the TM becomes more available you will quickly start griping about the way it is said also.
 
estesbob said:
As opposed to one who cares more about a perfect Mass than one who cares more abour receiving the Body and Blood of Christ than ctitiquing what goes on?

The sad part is that even when the TM becomes more available you will quickly start griping about the way it is said also.
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My caring for the way a Mass is said —is a reflection of putting God first and acknowledging the great gift He has given to us via Holy Communion.

Apparently-- Budda received much praise with all that drumming.

Archbishop Albert Malcolm Ranjith, secretary of the Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments.

katobs.se/art_intew_ranjith.htm

Yet, already Sacrosanctum Concilium indicated clear parameters within which the adaptations of the liturgy to local cultural patterns are to be carried out. It spoke of admitting into the Liturgy elements that “harmonize with its true and authentic spirit” [SC 37], ensuring the “substantial unity of the Roman rite is preserved” [SC 38], provided such is decided by the competent ecclesiastical authority, meaning the Holy See and, where legally allowed, the bishops [cf 22: 1-2]. It also called for prudence, in the choice of adaptations to be introduced into the Liturgy [SC 40: 1], the need to submit such to the Apostolic See for its consent, if needed, a period of limited experimentation [SC 40: 2] before final approval and consultation of experts in the matter [SC 40: 3].

As for what has been carried out up to now, one cannot be altogether satisfied. Some positive developments are visible, like the large scale use of vernacular languages in liturgy, making the sacraments better understood and to that extent better participated, and the use of art, music and Asian gestures at worship.** But a lot of arbitrariness and inconsistency can also be noted, arbitrariness through the permitting of all kinds of experiments and officialisation of such practices without proper study or critical evaluation**.

I once was listening to a radio talk given by a Buddhist monk in Sri Lanka who ridiculed Christians for allowing local drum beating in their churches without knowing that those **beats in fact were chants of praise for the Buddha. **This could be just one instance of unstudied absorption of local traditions that are per se incompatible with what we celebrate.
 
Walking_Home said:
My caring for the way a Mass is said —is a reflection of putting God first and acknowledging the great gift He has given to us via Holy Communion.

Apparently-- Budda received much praise with all that drumming.

Archbishop Albert Malcolm Ranjith, secretary of the Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments.

katobs.se/art_intew_ranjith.htm

Yet, already Sacrosanctum Concilium indicated clear parameters within which the adaptations of the liturgy to local cultural patterns are to be carried out. It spoke of admitting into the Liturgy elements that “harmonize with its true and authentic spirit” [SC 37], ensuring the “substantial unity of the Roman rite is preserved” [SC 38], provided such is decided by the competent ecclesiastical authority, meaning the Holy See and, where legally allowed, the bishops [cf 22: 1-2]. It also called for prudence, in the choice of adaptations to be introduced into the Liturgy [SC 40: 1], the need to submit such to the Apostolic See for its consent, if needed, a period of limited experimentation [SC 40: 2] before final approval and consultation of experts in the matter [SC 40: 3].

As for what has been carried out up to now, one cannot be altogether satisfied. Some positive developments are visible, like the large scale use of vernacular languages in liturgy, making the sacraments better understood and to that extent better participated, and the use of art, music and Asian gestures at worship.** But a lot of arbitrariness and inconsistency can also be noted, arbitrariness through the permitting of all kinds of experiments and officialisation of such practices without proper study or critical evaluation**.

I once was listening to a radio talk given by a Buddhist monk in Sri Lanka who ridiculed Christians for allowing local drum beating in their churches without knowing that those **beats in fact were chants of praise for the Buddha. **This could be just one instance of unstudied absorption of local traditions that are per se incompatible with what we celebrate.
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I am glad i do not share your obsession.
 
ChristianVet said:
But I wonder if all the hallaballoo about it is worth it. Last night family came in from out of town to see my son make his Confirmation – at the Our Father I naturally reached over to hold my own mother’s hand, and she refused to hold my hand. Finally, she did, but looked disturbed about it. 😊

Why has this issue become so divisive?
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This is a topic that I happen to be very interested in myself, as I was told from someone in another diocese years ago, ‘we aren’t supposed to hold hands during the Our Father’, and have waited to hear something in my own diocese.

IMO, what you describe is a really good illustration of why holding hands during the Our Father (or any other part of the mass) should be avoided.

Consider this: You and your mother were both distracted from the prayer over ‘should I hold hands or not’ and ‘now she’s mad at me’.

There is no way I will believe you weren’t distracted on some level at this point. When you and your mother should have been closest, you had this whole ‘oh, no’ running through your mind.

Even if you had discussed this whole thing before mass, ONE of you would have been thinking, ‘I have to hold her hand now/I can’t hold her hand now’, rather than, ‘we (the entire church) are all now one and on one accord, and about to be vines to God’s branches by receiving Jesus in the Holy Eucharist’*

The holding of hands, IMO, is something that is a distraction. ‘Why won’t she hold my hand’ or ‘Ohh, there’s someone over there that isn’t holding hands’ or ‘Oops, I forgot to put something on my hands and they are dry’, or some other distraction.:eek:

I’m not sure how this one started. As far as I can recall, it was something we always did. Now, I’m trying to avoid it, but don’t want to be distracting to any one else by holding out on the hand holding.
    • Please don’t think that I think this many words as I am going to receive the Eucharist! That is one of those when I’m at home things, and NOT something that I think is normal 😊
 
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