Should Holocaust (Shoah) history have Einsatzgruppen version?

[wisecath]

Much which has been written about the Holocaust since 1945. The best books to read on the 3rd Reich are RJ Evans the 3rd Reich @ War, Ian Kershaw’s 2 books on Hitler titled Hubris (1999) & Nemesis (2000). You can find so much told by Holocaust survivors, trips to the gas vans in Auschwitz-Birkenau & other extermination camps. But what you rarely hear is the account of those who were in the Einsatzgruppen (Special Action Groups), the 1s who shot & killed Jewish men, women & children in the ditches of the USSR during Operation Barbarossa.

This is controversial but it is also educational. Should Holocaust history also have accounts of Nazis who worked in the extermination camps & the Einstazgruppen who shot & killed Jews in the ditches by shooting them in the head? Those who committed the Holocaust atrocities believed in the ideology of what they were doing. The Nazis who did these killings were often ordinary Germans with oridinary interests whether it’s the fact that Reinhard Heydrich (killed in 1942 assassination by Czechs helped by the British) was a violinist & skier. The Einsatzgruppen who did the shootings were usu. 20 to early 30 something German men from 1942-45, though they sometimes got help from Ukrainian & other auxiliaries. The Germans who did these killings grew up on the Nazi ideology which was put into them from the time they were boys. If you look @ WW2 history incluiding Asia such as Rape of Nanking (read book by late Iris Chang), they give accounts of Japanese soldiers who took part in Bataan Massacre, Rape of Nanking, etc. From the late 1800s (Meiji Restoration, dreadnought race in Europe) to 1945, both Germany & Japan believed they were the best. Schools in 1930s Germany & Japan taught children that Germans & Japanese were the greatest. Anyhow, would you want to hear Nazis (if any are still alive) esp. Einsatzgruppen tell you of why they did the killings. The Nazi concentration camp guards were the 1s who beat prisoners to death in the camps & ran the gas vans, while he Einsatzgruppen were the 1s who shot Jews in ditches during Operation Barbarossa. Yes, it’s getting the account of murderers, but what do you think ?

 

[sshepeck]

There is a difference between exposing history in its actual events and promoting them. I think it is indeed relevant and necessary for future generations to read and understand how Hitler and his regime were able to take so many normal 20-30 year-olds and make them into tools of genocide. For a lot more on this, I recommend you read Daniel Jonah Goldhagen’s book “Hitler’s Willing Executioners”.

 

[CatholicSheila]

There are such books around. Perhaps not from soldiers during Barbarossa, but certainly books from the pov of German soldiers. They go into why they did what they did and how they feel about it now. Those I’ve read don’t give excuses for what happened - rather they all acknowledge that the German people knew what was happening and either a) didn’t care or b) agreed with it.

I think they’re very beneficial because they show how effective propaganda can be and that we need to be weary of following our leaders blindly. They also show the effect that such behaviours can have on ones psyche even if one is a willing participant.

I think of people who believe all homosexuals should be killed - these stories show that it’s not as easy or guilt free as many make it out to be. It’s dirty and ugly and we shouldn’t be quick to make such suggestions or in 50 years we will be the ones the world looks down upon and asks “why?”

 

[Ridgerunner]

Much which has been written about the Holocaust since 1945. The best books to read on the 3rd Reich are RJ Evans the 3rd Reich @ War, Ian Kershaw’s 2 books on Hitler titled Hubris (1999) & Nemesis (2000). You can find so much told by Holocaust survivors, trips to the gas vans in Auschwitz-Birkenau & other extermination camps. But what you rarely hear is the account of those who were in the Einsatzgruppen (Special Action Groups), the 1s who shot & killed Jewish men, women & children in the ditches of the USSR during Operation Barbarossa.

This is controversial but it is also educational. Should Holocaust history also have accounts of Nazis who worked in the extermination camps & the Einstazgruppen who shot & killed Jews in the ditches by shooting them in the head? Those who committed the Holocaust atrocities believed in the ideology of what they were doing. The Nazis who did these killings were often ordinary Germans with oridinary interests whether it’s the fact that Reinhard Heydrich (killed in 1942 assassination by Czechs helped by the British) was a violinist & skier. The Einsatzgruppen who did the shootings were usu. 20 to early 30 something German men from 1942-45, though they sometimes got help from Ukrainian & other auxiliaries. The Germans who did these killings grew up on the Nazi ideology which was put into them from the time they were boys. If you look @ WW2 history incluiding Asia such as Rape of Nanking (read book by late Iris Chang), they give accounts of Japanese soldiers who took part in Bataan Massacre, Rape of Nanking, etc. From the late 1800s (Meiji Restoration, dreadnought race in Europe) to 1945, both Germany & Japan believed they were the best. Schools in 1930s Germany & Japan taught children that Germans & Japanese were the greatest. Anyhow, would you want to hear Nazis (if any are still alive) esp. Einsatzgruppen tell you of why they did the killings. The Nazi concentration camp guards were the 1s who beat prisoners to death in the camps & ran the gas vans, while he Einsatzgruppen were the 1s who shot Jews in ditches during Operation Barbarossa. Yes, it’s getting the account of murderers, but what do you think ?

There are two things I think about this.

Yes, it is probably well to know how Einsatzgruppen people rationalized what they did. But there were also more tangential people, not Einsatz, who were peripherally involved. Sometimes such people were also victims in some ways.

I once had occasion to meet a Japanese man who had been in the Kwantung Army in China. He knew about the atrocities committed by Japanese, and was peripherally involved in that his group was a fighting group, but his group was always followed up by those who were much like the Einsatz. The conditions under which he fought were terrible. Many of his fellows were, like him, not in any way favorable to what was going on. They just wanted out. But the real savages were just as harsh with Japanese soldiers as they were with Chinese if they took a notion to be that way. Lots of his fellow soldiers were executed by the “enforcer” squads, and many were tortured in one way or another.

Interestingly, this man greatly resented the fact that Hirohito was not tried as a war criminal. He said the throne was behind all of it, and that everybody in his situation knew it.

 

[Kaninchen]

Goldhagen’s ‘Hitler’s Willing Executioners, Ordinary Germans And The Holocaust’ has a whole section on one such (Police Battalion 101).

 

[triumphguy]

Much which has been written about the Holocaust since 1945. The best books to read on the 3rd Reich are RJ Evans the 3rd Reich @ War, Ian Kershaw’s 2 books on Hitler titled Hubris (1999) & Nemesis (2000). You can find so much told by Holocaust survivors, trips to the gas vans in Auschwitz-Birkenau & other extermination camps. But what you rarely hear is the account of those who were in the Einsatzgruppen (Special Action Groups), the 1s who shot & killed Jewish men, women & children in the ditches of the USSR during Operation Barbarossa.

This is controversial but it is also educational. Should Holocaust history also have accounts of Nazis who worked in the extermination camps & the Einstazgruppen who shot & killed Jews in the ditches by shooting them in the head? Those who committed the Holocaust atrocities believed in the ideology of what they were doing. The Nazis who did these killings were often ordinary Germans with oridinary interests whether it’s the fact that Reinhard Heydrich (killed in 1942 assassination by Czechs helped by the British) was a violinist & skier. The Einsatzgruppen who did the shootings were usu. 20 to early 30 something German men from 1942-45, though they sometimes got help from Ukrainian & other auxiliaries. The Germans who did these killings grew up on the Nazi ideology which was put into them from the time they were boys. If you look @ WW2 history incluiding Asia such as Rape of Nanking (read book by late Iris Chang), they give accounts of Japanese soldiers who took part in Bataan Massacre, Rape of Nanking, etc. From the late 1800s (Meiji Restoration, dreadnought race in Europe) to 1945, both Germany & Japan believed they were the best. Schools in 1930s Germany & Japan taught children that Germans & Japanese were the greatest. Anyhow, would you want to hear Nazis (if any are still alive) esp. Einsatzgruppen tell you of why they did the killings. The Nazi concentration camp guards were the 1s who beat prisoners to death in the camps & ran the gas vans, while he Einsatzgruppen were the 1s who shot Jews in ditches during Operation Barbarossa. Yes, it’s getting the account of murderers, but what do you think ?

Do you mean on par with the Holocaust survivors accounts?

When you hear of a horrendous murder of an innocent person do you want to hear the victim’s story, or the murderer’s?

And even if some want to hear about the murderer due to some prurient interest, should their story be available to the public?

I say No.

 

[stevegravy]

Do you mean on par with the Holocaust survivors accounts?

When you hear of a horrendous murder of an innocent person do you want to hear the victim’s story, or the murderer’s?

And even if some want to hear about the murderer due to some prurient interest, should their story be available to the public?

I say No.

There were psych. experiments done in the 50’s and 60’s that concluded that the manpower needed to fill the requirements of the Nazi camp system could be obtained from any average sized US town. It was not unique to Germans or their education or culture it has to do with human beings being wired to comply with authoritarian demands. There was another experiment the Stanford prison experiment that demonstrated the corrupting influence of power.

IMHO if anything needs to be taught is the cognitive behavior of the human mind and how easily it can be corrupted by the littlest of psych. controls.

 

[edwest2]

There were psych. experiments done in the 50’s and 60’s that concluded that the manpower needed to fill the requirements of the Nazi camp system could be obtained from any average sized US town. It was not unique to Germans or their education or culture it has to do with human beings being wired to comply with authoritarian demands. There was another experiment the Stanford prison experiment that demonstrated the corrupting influence of power.

IMHO if anything needs to be taught is the cognitive behavior of the human mind and how easily it can be corrupted by the littlest of psych. controls.

That is a simplistic view. The study of this time period is very complex. The humans are “wired” notion is foolish and has no scientific backing. Actions like this are backed up only by one thing - trust. People have been lied to and deceived by their leaders, and even scientists, for a long time. But trusted them until the truth came out.

Eugenics: The idea that some human beings were physically and mentally superior to others, started in the United States and spread to Europe. One Nazi newsreel I saw showed scientists with calipers measuring the head of an untermensch (sub-human) to “prove” his inferiority.

Henry Ford wrote the book - “The International Jew, the World’s Foremost Problem.” Hitler wished he could send some of his Brown Shirts to the US to help him out. Instead, he got a medal: the Grand Cross of the German Eagle.

The Russians shot their own men who tried to flee superior German forces, and even put officers into labor camps who showed the wrong attitude. Scientists and political opponents were also killed.

Especially, toward the end of the war, the Germans killed their own men who showed defeatist attitudes.

Convincing the people that the “enemy” was inferior or a drain on your society was and is a common tactic. See Rwanda - 1994:

historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/rwanda.htm

During the war, a little known fact almost killed my mother. She was a Polish forced laborer. At a checkpoint, a German guard challenged her. She had to wear a large letter P on her coat. He shouted that she was the enemy, that she shouldn’t be in his country. He pointed his rifle at her. Fortunately, a German officer at the checkpoint shouted at the guard: “Who brainwashed you? She is here to help us. If you touch her, I will smash your head against this wall.”

The targeting of civilians occurred on both the German and Allied sides.

Peace,
Ed

 

[TheRealJuliane]

There were psych. experiments done in the 50’s and 60’s that concluded that the manpower needed to fill the requirements of the Nazi camp system could be obtained from any average sized US town. It was not unique to Germans or their education or culture it has to do with human beings being wired to comply with authoritarian demands. There was another experiment the Stanford prison experiment that demonstrated the corrupting influence of power.

IMHO if anything needs to be taught is the cognitive behavior of the human mind and how easily it can be corrupted by the littlest of psych. controls.

The Nazis started killing people from the first days they came into power. When people see their friends and neighbors being killed and dragged off to prison for seemingly no reason, it is intimidating and causes paralyzing fear. It doesn’t take many threats for an entire people to be cowed.

 

[St_Francis]

There were psych. experiments done in the 50’s and 60’s that concluded that the manpower needed to fill the requirements of the Nazi camp system could be obtained from any average sized US town. It was not unique to Germans or their education or culture it has to do with **human beings being wired to comply with authoritarian demands. **There was another experiment the Stanford prison experiment that demonstrated the corrupting influence of power.

IMHO if anything needs to be taught is the cognitive behavior of the human mind and how easily it can be corrupted by the littlest of psych. controls.

I’m not sure that this is *human *behavior–it might well have been cultural behavior, or even pressured behavior–don’t students do odd things to get good grades? To get paid? etc. One thing which has been lost through the two world wars is how much of the US is German–they were the largest group of immigrants for much of the 1800s.

Additionally, our school system was largely based on the Prussian model, so there was a great similarity between how Americans and Germans were educated.

 

[tabycat]

Yes, they should be. The more we know how some actions (good or evil) came about, the better we can advoide doing (maybe).

 

[edwest2]

The Nazis started killing people from the first days they came into power. When people see their friends and neighbors being killed and dragged off to prison for seemingly no reason, it is intimidating and causes paralyzing fear. It doesn’t take many threats for an entire people to be cowed.

As a person who specializes in World War II history, I’d like to see a reference or two for this. Europe was in the midst of the Great Depression. Hitler promised and gave the average German jobs. They could now feed their families. But he also gave them enemies: Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, non-Aryans and political (including military) enemies. Anti-semitism existed in Europe and Russia long before Hitler came to power.

He created the Hitler Youth to create the next generation of admirers, and sadly, soldiers.
He created the Reichsarbeitsdienst (Reich labor service) which recruited young men to improve roads and perform other civil service work for their country.
He created the Deutsches Arbeitskorps (German labor corps), which provided useful work for young German men and was usually the preparation for their upcoming military training.

And he promised the people lebensraum - living space.

United States - population 1945: 139,928,165
Germany - population 1939: 80,800,000

Hitler was greatly admired, and even more admired after the war began.

Peace,
Ed

 

[mt_gooseberry]

Much which has been written about the Holocaust since 1945. The best books to read on the 3rd Reich are RJ Evans the 3rd Reich @ War, Ian Kershaw’s 2 books on Hitler titled Hubris (1999) & Nemesis (2000). You can find so much told by Holocaust survivors, trips to the gas vans in Auschwitz-Birkenau & other extermination camps. But what you rarely hear is the account of those who were in the Einsatzgruppen (Special Action Groups), the 1s who shot & killed Jewish men, women & children in the ditches of the USSR during Operation Barbarossa.

This is controversial but it is also educational. Should Holocaust history also have accounts of Nazis who worked in the extermination camps & the Einstazgruppen who shot & killed Jews in the ditches by shooting them in the head? Those who committed the Holocaust atrocities believed in the ideology of what they were doing. The Nazis who did these killings were often ordinary Germans with oridinary interests whether it’s the fact that Reinhard Heydrich (killed in 1942 assassination by Czechs helped by the British) was a violinist & skier. The Einsatzgruppen who did the shootings were usu. 20 to early 30 something German men from 1942-45, though they sometimes got help from Ukrainian & other auxiliaries. The Germans who did these killings grew up on the Nazi ideology which was put into them from the time they were boys. If you look @ WW2 history incluiding Asia such as Rape of Nanking (read book by late Iris Chang), they give accounts of Japanese soldiers who took part in Bataan Massacre, Rape of Nanking, etc. From the late 1800s (Meiji Restoration, dreadnought race in Europe) to 1945, both Germany & Japan believed they were the best. Schools in 1930s Germany & Japan taught children that Germans & Japanese were the greatest. Anyhow, would you want to hear Nazis (if any are still alive) esp. Einsatzgruppen tell you of why they did the killings. The Nazi concentration camp guards were the 1s who beat prisoners to death in the camps & ran the gas vans, while he Einsatzgruppen were the 1s who shot Jews in ditches during Operation Barbarossa. Yes, it’s getting the account of murderers, but what do you think ?

Another excellent book on this subject is *Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland *by Christopher R. Browning.

As far as your other book recommendations, I have to respectfully disagree with you about Kershaw. I think William Sheridan Allen’s The Nazi Seizure of Power: The Experience of a Single German Town 1922-1945 is much better at showing how “ordinary” people (like you and me) could end up supporting such outrage.

It is so important that we understand that the Germans of WWII and the Holocaust were not some anomalous evil generation. They were normal people…and we are still susceptible to corruptible influences today. Also helpful in understanding this is The Banality of Evil by Hannah Arendt.

PS. It’s been seven years since I studied this in college, so maybe I’m wrong, but I’m under the assumption that the deaths attributable to the Einsatzgruppen are indeed included in the Holocaust death tolls. No?

 

[Ridgerunner]

I’m not sure that this is *human *behavior–it might well have been cultural behavior, or even pressured behavior–don’t students do odd things to get good grades? To get paid? etc. One thing which has been lost through the two world wars is how much of the US is German–they were the largest group of immigrants for much of the 1800s.

Additionally, our school system was largely based on the Prussian model, so there was a great similarity between how Americans and Germans were educated.

It may be different now, but the last I knew the largest single ethnic-descent group in the U.S. is German.

I have never read an account by Einsatzgruppen people. I have, however, read accounts of members of the Waffen SS. But as brutal as some of the Waffen SS were in combat, I don’t think their motivation could have been the same as that of those in the Einsatzgruppen.

Personally, I doubt there is any ethic-based explanation for the brutality of Einsatzgruppen, any more than there is for the NKVD. But I suspect that, among, let’s say, 100,000 people out of any population, easily ten of them would act in the same way as did the Einsatzgruppen or the NKVD if given the chance. If you read Solzhenitsyn’s accounts of the “bluecaps”, you wouldn’t much doubt that.

Likely there is no difference between the “bluecaps” and the Einsatzgruppen, but it would be interesting to know if they thought in any way differently.

 

[vera_dicere]

I think it’d be interesting in a psych review, because generally I think those people were generally sick in the head to start with, or just very suggestible.

But I don’t think having some random solider from Auschwitz talking about his justififcation in a book is a good idea, for one it’d get all the skin heads hyped up, and another, it just takes it to far towards glorification for my liking.

it’d simply be them trying to justify their brutality.

Go read those abortion stories from women who are happy they did it, and from abortionists and clinic workers - would you think that’s something we should all paw over and say “oh, I understand why they murdered those babies now, how sad for them, being conned into it… or… yes, they have a valid point, their conscience said it was okay”.

We must never forget what happened in those places, and how it started and who caused it, but we can remember without having screeds of books written from their POV. I met a former German solider who, while having not served in the camps, still hated the jews. He had heard rumours of what was really going on there, but generally didn’t beleive it. He’s dead now. Died back in the mid 90s. Would people have been interested in hsi story, I’m sure, yeah, but would people have been happy to know he was a German solider during the worst period in human history? Dunno. But I think mos tpeople would be horrified if they started listening to him spout off about the “sub-humans”.