Should homosexual acts be illegal from a Catholic & Government perspective?

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Hi,

Should homosexual acts be illegal from a Catholic & Government perspective?

I have heard that in some parts of Africa they will murder you if you are homosexually acting out. Please let me know from a moral Catholic and USA Government perspective.

Thanks!
 
No, is not moral. It is not even close. Of course it should not be legal.
 
First of all, I am not terribly comfortable with the term “legal” applied to the things of faith. We are no longer “under the law”, as St Paul tells us somewhere…
But that said, I understand why you phrased your question as you did…

From the Catholic perspective, there is nothing to say. Homosexual acts ARE sinful (not legal) and they can never be made acceptable. They are inherently disordered, and cannot be made “ordered”.

From a governmental standpoint…We cannot say. It depends upon the government and it’s principles.
Here in the U.S., under civil laws, No - I don’t think that homosexual acts between two consenting adults should be “illegal”. I base this on the civil principles of the country and government which values personal liberty.

Peace
James
 
Cannot be illegal.
Impossible to enforce.
Certain drugs are illegal and that seems impossible to enforce too…;)😃

Not trying to argue…just saying that the ability to enforce something is not really a bar on making it illegal…🤷

Peace
James
 
In my country, sodomy is illegal by law, and if proven guilty you’ll get prison time. Those are some laws we retained from our colonialists Britain after independence.

However, I’ve never heard of a case where someone was convicted of sodomy…How do you prove it happened?

We’re in the process of drafting a new constitution, so let’s see if they’ll retain that law.
 
To single out homosexual acts as one form of Fornication and adultry is to do a grave injustice to those afflicted with same sex attraction.

To make sodomy illegal or other “homosexual acts”, while permitting remarriage after divorce, while permitting adultry, while permitting hetrosexual fornication, while permitting the use of the Pill, while permitting, reccognising and even encouraging cohabitation before marriage…
all of that is grave injustice.

All these sins of impurity and unchastity are the same. it is very wrong for the civil law to seperate them.

Either we ask for a christian view of marriage and sexuality to be enshrined in our laws or we dont.

I propose we must turn the clock back somewhat.
We must find a way to return to our society the importance of the link between sexuality and procreation, and the vital importance of Marital Fidelity and Perminance as the foundation for the Family, and the basic Building Block of Society.

The first step is to reverse the “Contraceptive Mentality” on which the sexual revoultion hangs. This requires a total change of policy and severe restrictions on access to contraception.
after that, other aspects can be challenged. Without that none of them make any logical sense.
Either sex is linked to procreation or it’s not. If sex is it must be socially linked to marriage, all fornication and adultery should be taboo (but not criminal… that’s too harsh a penalty people are weak and will sin let God Judge them)
If sex is not linked to marriage and procreation then why should we treat those who want to shack up with a friend of the same gender any differently than someone who wants to shack up with someone of a different gender?

Adultery is mentioned in the Decalogue… Fornication and sodomy are not, to say nothing about acts possible between 2 women. (so undefinable as to make the legal definition of “Consumation” of a marriage impossible in countries which permit same sex “marriage”)
 
Anruari,
Nice post.

As I was reading it…one phrase jumped out at me…
“I propose we must turn the clock back somewhat.”
A common enough expression but I, in turn, suggest that we be careful about trying to, “turn back the clock”.
When we try to “turn back the clock”, looking for something good, we will invariably also find things bad. For instance…one can turn back the clock to find stronger views on chastity…but one also finds less tolerant views on things like race relations etc…So I would rather not try to “turn back the Clock” but rather to move forward.

I know that you did not mean this…and I am not trying to attack you or to derail the thread…but when I read the phrase “Turn back the clock”…this was what came to me.

Peace
James
 
Certain drugs are illegal and that seems impossible to enforce too…;)😃

Not trying to argue…just saying that the ability to enforce something is not really a bar on making it illegal…🤷

Peace
James
There’s a difference between “impossible to enforce” and “difficult to enforce.” A quick check reveals that 48% of all Federal prisoners are there for drug charges. That’s a lot of people for something “impossible to enforce.” And that statistic leaves out the tens of thousands of people imprisoned for drug crimes at the state level, or those on parole or who have served their time and been released. I believe the U.S. has the highest imprisonment rate in the world - primary due to drug crimes. Enforcement and deterrence are separate issues.

That said, society has moved on from the mindset of regulating sexual behavior between consenting adults. If the “right to privacy” was found by the Supreme Court to provide the legal basis for abortion, it certainly does so for orgasms.
 
Hi,

Should homosexual acts be illegal from a Catholic & Government perspective?

I have heard that in some parts of Africa they will murder you if you are homosexually acting out. Please let me know from a moral Catholic and USA Government perspective.

Thanks!
In many western countries these acts have been illegal for centuries. In this country they were illegal in many States up until about 10 years ago. Things like adultery are still illegal in places like New York State.

There is nothing unjust about having laws that protect the common good. There is nothing unjust about targeting specific acts that are unnatural and contrary to reason.
 
Homosexuality is not immoral, people, just because your favorite storybook says so.
 
Homosexuality is not immoral, people, just because your favorite storybook says so.
The inclination, though disordered, is not sinful. Acting on these disordered desires would be objectively sinful.
 
Hi,

Should homosexual acts be illegal from a Catholic & Government perspective?

I have heard that in some parts of Africa they will murder you if you are homosexually acting out. Please let me know from a moral Catholic and USA Government perspective.

Thanks!
In England sodomy was not illegal until Thomas Cromwell under Henry VIII after the Anglican schism made it so. He then proceeded to claim that Catholic monks were clearly sodomites since there were no women there and used this claim to seize the Church’s land. His daughter, the Catholic Queen Mary repealed these laws and upon her death Queen Elizabeth put them back.

Perhaps we should restore other traditional Protestant values while we are at it liking banning Christmas like the Pilgrims since this is the land of the Pilgrims pride, or perhaps we should have Congress stay in session on Christmas like they did into the 1850s with Christmas only becoming a federal holiday in 1870.

Perhaps we should go back to the good ol’ American colonial days where more states had anti-Catholic penal laws than anti-sodomy laws.

Perhaps we should look to other European values like Germanic culture where the idea of burning them came from pagan thought that sexual deviance was caused by malevolent spirits (the Church doesn’t remotely suggest demonic influence).

Or how about the destruction of the Knights Templar by false accusations of sodomy? Maybe we should also enjoy those witch hunts connected with allegations of sodomy?
 
Anruari,
Nice post.

As I was reading it…one phrase jumped out at me…
“I propose we must turn the clock back somewhat.”

When we try to “turn back the clock”, looking for something good, we will invariably also find things bad.

I know that you did not mean this…and I am not trying to attack you or to derail the thread…but when I read the phrase “Turn back the clock”…this was what came to me.

Peace
James
Thanks James.

Lets be clear… “Turn the clock back” was in no way intended to suggest that there was some golden age of moral virtue, but that the sexual revolution is evil posing as something good.
It it this specific revolution - the “Sexual revolution” which we desperately need to reverse.
I then went on to spell out exactly what I meant by that. - It is the link between the sexual act, procreation, and marriage which needs to be restored, and in fact as prophesied by Pope Paul VI, it is widespread use of chemical contraception which is the most significant aspect which has fueled the cultural change.
Without that, the “Sexual revolution” would have been impossible.

I am in no way linking issues of gender equality to the issue of licentious sexual behaviour. (the feminist movement is a separate issue). Race relations and other areas of civil rights are ultimately an area of Good, brought about by the development of Christian Thought. It is Christianity that teaches the world that all men are created by God, in His Image and Likeness, Male and Female. And it is Very Good.

So I agree it’s not a “Turning back” of the clock… it’s a counter revolution, that finds the Good in the development of our society, but recognises the evil. Throw out the evil, but not throw the baby out with the bath water.

How did Jesus deal with the Woman caught in Adultry? “Then I do not condemn you either… Go therefore and Sin No More”.

Making sexual sins a criminal offense, where it is not necessary to protect the vulnerable, is not justice as Jesus would show us… but that does not mean that we should accept sexual sins within our community and permit their unrepented repetition to destroy our communities.

We must find a new way forward. We must be a prophetic voice in our world saying “Look at what this evil is doing! It is destroying our society! We must Repent to avoid further destruction!”

It’s not that that destruction is the punishment of a vengeful God, it’s simply the careless effects of ignoring the fact that Sin has consequences.
STD’s cant be spread if people are Chaste, and Faithfull to their spouses.
Teen Pregnancies can’t happen if our teenagers aren’t fornicating.
Divorcees won’t struggle alone if their husbands cant just “trade them in for a younger model” like they do with their cars every 3-5 years leaving the “ex Wife” to raise 2 or 3 kids.

Breaking this daft cycle of teaching our young people the Lie that you can separate sexual intercourse from procreation and the risks of STD’s by “Practicing Safe Sex” is essential.

The numbers just don’t add up.
If only a few young people are being unchaste then only a few will get pregnant, and there wont be much STD’s going around. Lets assume that in a school year group of 100, that 3 - 4 couples are unchaste. maybe one of them might get pregnant, as a person is only fertile for about 5-7 days per month

If almost all of our young people are being unchaste and believe it’s abnormal to not loose your virginity before the leagal age… but they mostly use some form of condom or chemical “protection”… then we have 100 kids fornicating, and have “safe” methods reducing the risk of pregnancy from 5 in 28 to 5 in 100. That’s a 4 fold improvement in the odds per incident, but a 25 fold increase in the number of people engaging in the behaviours, and also a significant increase in the frequency of that behaviour.

The “Safe Sex” argument just doesn’t wash. We have to stop telling our kids they can use contraception, and teach them the Gospel of Love… that includes the Virtues of Chastity and Self Control.

We have to reverse this attitude in our society that says “abstinence doesn’t work” or “it’s only for religious prudes”. It’s essential to our wider society not just the kids of catholic families.
 
I think it is dangerous to pass laws to enforce morality. Adultery is also a sin, but passing a law against it would be difficult (if not impossible) to enforce.

I come from South Africa, were, under Apartheid, the government tried to legislate “morality” (and I use the term loosely) with disastrous results for the populace. Pre-marital sex, mixed race relationships and Homosexuality were illegal. (And before I am crucified, I am 100% okay with mixed race relationships and there is nothing wrong or immoral about them in any way, but they were lumped together with extra-marital sex and sodomy as crimes by the regime). The police were given special powers of surveillance and arrest without warrant to deal with these crimes.

These laws resulted in police officers spying spending massive amounts of time spying on suspected “illegal” couples, trying to catch them in the act, and barging in on them when they suspected an “immoral” act had taken place. Many people had their lives ruined and committed suicide as a result. Also, so much time and resources was devoted to these activities (and political repression) that ordinary law enforcement suffered. South Africa’s high crime rate can at least partially be attributed to the deliberate neglect by the police in this area.

In short, government should not legislate morality because the result will likely be anything but moral. Also, I think changing the hearts and minds of sinners is the best option.
 
In Texas where I live homosexual acts were illegal until the police broke down a door and arrested a male couple for sodomy. Which brought a law suit in the Supreme Court and now homosexual acts are not illegal in the US.

I don’t think the laws were enforced very much, but were used to deny housing to homosexuals. Every lease document from the Texas Apartment Association had a clause forbidding “criminal acts” and when the laws were in effect gays were Criminals and were denied apartments.
 
In Texas where I live homosexual acts were illegal until the police broke down a door and arrested a male couple for sodomy. Which brought a law suit in the Supreme Court and now homosexual acts are not illegal in the US.

I don’t think the laws were enforced very much, but were used to deny housing to homosexuals. Every lease document from the Texas Apartment Association had a clause forbidding “criminal acts” and when the laws were in effect gays were Criminals and were denied apartments.
The law in Texas should have been struck down for violation of the 14th amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America by making an act criminal if committed by one group, but not another, it was equivalent to making fornication illegal only if you weren’t white.
 
how far is anyone willing to go to investigate and enforce these laws?
 
I wouldn’t have a problem with making sodomy illegal for everyone “gay” or straight. 🙂
how far is anyone willing to go to investigate and enforce these laws?
Simple, arrest anyone, “gay” or straight, who publicly admits to doing anal sex. Equal opportunity punishment. 🙂
 
I wouldn’t have a problem with making sodomy illegal for everyone “gay” or straight. :)Simple, arrest anyone, “gay” or straight, who publicly admits to doing anal sex. Equal opportunity punishment. 🙂
that’s not enough evidence to convict.

so how far are you willing to investigate these crimes?
 
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