Should homosexual acts be illegal from a Catholic & Government perspective?

[CopticChristian]

DexUK:

If you are a medical person you will know that haemorrhoids are not solely a problem related only to sodomy. It is unreasonably to suggest that sodomy will inevitably lead to such a condition.

I am, and I know that you don’t know…I said…

.however there would be an inherent morbidity with this unnatural deviant behavior in **males **and that would be seen in any population that sexually acts exclusively in this way

J Adolesc Health Care. 1985 Jul;6(4):278-85.
Medical problems of the homosexual adolescent.
Owen WF Jr.
Abstract
Physicians treating adolescents should take a complete sexual history, including sexual orientation and practices, to determine whether their patients are homosexually active. Lesbians are at very low risk for sexually transmitted diseases, but they do have other health concerns. Four general groups of conditions may be encountered in homosexually active men: classical sexually transmitted diseases (gonorrhea, infections with Chlamydia trachomatis, syphilis, herpes simplex infections, genital warts, pubic lice, scabies); enteric diseases (infections with Shigella species, Campylobacter jejuni, Entamoeba histolytica, Giardia lamblia, hepatitis A, hepatitis B, hepatitis non-A, non-B, and cytomegalovirus); trauma (fecal incontinence, hemorrhoids, anal fissure, foreign bodies, rectosigmoid tears, allergic proctitis, penile edema, chemical sinusitis, inhaled nitrite burns, and sexual assault of the male patient); and the acquired immunodeficiency syndrome (AIDS). Clinicians can assist homosexual teenagers by understanding their special health needs, by counseling them about safe sexual practices, and by accepting their relationships nonjudgmentally.

Ann Clin Lab Sci. 1976 Mar-Apr;6(2):184-92.
The gay bowel syndrome: clinico-pathologic correlation in 260 cases.
Kazal HL, Sohn N, Carrasco JI, Robilotti JG, Delaney WE.
Abstract
The clinical and pathological findings in a group of 260 homosexual men comprising 10% of a private proctologic practice are reviewed. A clinical pattern of anorectal and colon diseases encountered with unusual frequency in these homosexual patients is termed the gay bowel syndrome. The clinical diagnoses in decreasing order of frequency include condyloma acuminata, hemorrhoids, nonspecific proctitis, anal fistula, perirectal abscess, anal fissure, amebiasis, benign polyps, viral hepatitis, gonorrhea, syphilis, anorectal trauma and foreign bodies, shigellosis, rectal ulcers and lymphogranuloma venereum. 60 anorectal and sigmoid biopsies from 51 patients failed to disclose evidence of specific infection other than condyloma acuminata. Of 21 patients with biopsy diagnosis of nonspecific proctitis, 8 had a specific infection which was detected by other means,–5 cases of shigellosis and one case each of gonorrheal proctitis, amebiasis and lymphogranuloma venereum. In evaluating proctologic problems in the gay male, all of the known sexually transmitted diseases should be considered. Shigellosis, amebiasis and viral hepatitis should be included. Microbiological evaluation is essential. Concurrent infections with 2 or more pathogens should be anticipated. Chlamydia trachomatis, an important cause of nonspecific urethritis in the general population, is high on the list of possible causes of the nonspecific proctitis present in 31 of the 260 patients.

Lacerations, or to put it in a more accessible way, since the word ‘laceration’ invokes images of sharp instruments, tearing can indeed happen due to friction. There are, of course, ways round this. Artificial, for sure, but not something that is entirely unknown to heterosexuals either.

The use or even consideration of laceration is an indication of you know not what you speak. If you had read, studied or used the ICD-9 as I have you would know that.

I don’t know what “dispruption” is - my dictionary doesn’t have it listed, so it’s either an obscure medical word or a typo. On the assumption that you mistyped, then you will need to let me know which sphincter you’re talking about, as there are two… In any case, it would seem to be the in same category as ‘incontinence’. Perhaps you couldn’t find enough medical problems to scare people with so you decided to mention one twice?

Your not knowing is an indication that you again know not what you speak. I am not obligated to educate the lay public, in particular anyone that suggests they have faux medical knowledge.

What is it your broad knowledge and understanding would be aided by with an understanding of which sphincter? Consider this conversation…

The reason you have problems with soiling and continually have expulsion of stool is because your rectal sphincter has been destroyed. But Doc…there are two, which one? Does it matter? Tell me why? Your pants are full of XXXX

Now I could suggest that, other than banning them outright, for cars it is possible to fix a speed limiting switch that, if operated, prevents the driver from speeding… I wonder if such a device exists that does a reasonable job at preventing a promiscuous person from spreading disease…?

you miss the point…these are mechanical problems not speeding problems

 

[CopticChristian]

DexUK:

Now I could suggest that, other than banning them outright, for cars it is possible to fix a speed limiting switch that, if operated, prevents the driver from speeding… I wonder if such a device exists that does a reasonable job at preventing a promiscuous person from spreading disease…?

One final note. Your suggestion is valid. There is a device that does a very good job when working and if used can reasonably predict that someone could prevent a promiscuous person from spreading disease.

This device would first cause the promiscuous person to awaken to the fact that there is risk of disease…

This device would cause restraint in a promiscuous person and potentially aid their health…

This device is rarely used to it’s maximum and many have little knowledge of how to sharpen it, effectively direct it or run it…

it is between the ears…

Your brain…

 

[DexUK]

One final note. Your suggestion is valid. There is a device that does a very good job when working and if used can reasonably predict that someone could prevent a promiscuous person from spreading disease.

This device would first cause the promiscuous person to awaken to the fact that there is risk of disease…

This device would cause restraint in a promiscuous person and potentially aid their health…

This device is rarely used to it’s maximum and many have little knowledge of how to sharpen it, effectively direct it or run it…

it is between the ears…

Your brain…

As ever, you deliberately miss the point and, as ever, you don’t miss an opportunity to be rude.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

:nope:

Sadly, your imagination has failed you…the word is morbidity…physicians, while training, go to Mortality and Morbidity conferences weekly…Heterosexual, monogamous sex would not lead to

Hemorrhoids
Rectal lacerations
Incontinence
Rectal Prolapse
Anal sphincter dispruption

You are wrong…from a medical perspective, based on my opinion that comes from knowledge, training and experience…

:nope:

Wrong again. What happens when there is constipation, as you propose, the reverse of attempting to insert things into the end of the alimentary tract, a purpose it was not created for, would lead to Diverticulosis and potentially Diverticulitis…but I would not expect you to know that…The burden of insertion does not translate to the burden of expulsion…rethink your understanding…

:tsktsk:

Please don’t go on as your understanding of the medical field is innacurate and here spreads misinformation…

You’re aware that a lot of gays don’t engage in anal sex right? Not only that, but the rates used to be only about 5%.

I heard that by the time a “gay” man gets old he has to wear adult diapers because of the damage to you know what from sodomy.

You’ve probably also heard that masturbation causes sweaty palms and sugar makes kids hyperactive, doesn’t make it true.

I am, and I know that you don’t know…I said…

The use or even consideration of laceration is an indication of you know not what you speak. If you had read, studied or used the ICD-9 as I have you would know that.

Your not knowing is an indication that you again know not what you speak. I am not obligated to educate the lay public, in particular anyone that suggests they have faux medical knowledge.

What is it your broad knowledge and understanding would be aided by with an understanding of which sphincter? Consider this conversation…

The reason you have problems with soiling and continually have expulsion of stool is because your rectal sphincter has been destroyed. But Doc…there are two, which one? Does it matter? Tell me why? Your pants are full of XXXX

you miss the point…these are mechanical problems not speeding problems

That second study is from a proctologic practice, only reason you go to one is if you need something dealt with or looked at ( prostate exams these days are often done by a general practitioner).

 

[CopticChristian]

Dakota_Roberts:

You’re aware that a lot of gays don’t engage in anal sex right? Not only that, but the rates used to be only about 5%.

I am aware that many people practice anal sex. I am aware that homosexual man practicing sex more likely than not have few choices, one being anal sex. I am making a statement of the a population that has greater than expected problems related to a practice that even if it was a small percentage greater than normal=abnormal…Ok…

You’ve probably also heard that masturbation causes sweaty palms and sugar makes kids hyperactive, doesn’t make it true.

You may want to consider this statement in the context of accusing others of being incoherent. What does this have to do with anything?

That second study is from a proctologic practice, only reason you go to one is if you need something dealt with or looked at ( prostate exams these days are often done by a general practitioner).

It is a study from a Proctologist. They are specialists that tend to see people that have Proctologic problems usually on referral. Prostate exams are done by Nurse Practitioners and Physicians assistants. What does this have to do with anything? Put this thought in your concern about coherence.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

I am aware that many people practice anal sex. I am aware that homosexual man practicing sex more likely than not have few choices, one being anal sex. I am making a statement of the a population that has greater than expected problems related to a practice that even if it was a small percentage greater than normal=abnormal…Ok…

You may want to consider this statement in the context of accusing others of being incoherent. What does this have to do with anything?

It is a study from a Proctologist. They are specialists that tend to see people that have Proctologic problems usually on referral. Prostate exams are done by Nurse Practitioners and Physicians assistants. What does this have to do with anything? Put this thought in your concern about coherence.

Few choices? I don’t feel like getting into the specifics (I don’t think the moderators would approve of it), but that’s not really true. In English we (Anglophone) are far more apt to use the term “engaging in sex” than “practicing sex” (actually I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone beside you use the latter). You said “however there would be an inherent morbidity with this unnatural deviant behavior in males and that would be seen in any population that sexually acts exclusively in this way” which you backed up by disease resulting exclusively from anal sex thus at least implying all gays exclusively engage in anal sex which is quite false.

My point was that hearing something said does not make it true, just like the myths of masturbation causing sweaty palms and sugar making kids hyperactive.

I did seem to mince my words regarding who does the exams, I had intended to point out that proctologist normally aren’t the ones doing it and that they see people on referral. My point was that the sample was skewed which can make results useless (like Kinsey’s study).

 

[CopticChristian]

QUOTE]

Few choices? I don’t feel like getting into the specifics (I don’t think the moderators would approve of it), but that’s not really true. In English we (Anglophone) are far more apt to use the term “engaging in sex” than “practicing sex” (actually I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone beside you use the latter). You said “however there would be an inherent morbidity with this unnatural deviant behavior in males and that would be seen in any population that sexually acts exclusively in this way” which you backed up by disease resulting exclusively from anal sex thus at least implying all gays exclusively engage in anal sex which is quite false.

 

[DexUK]

If you were to watch the movie Milk…there is a scene where Sean Penn is dialoguing with someone who says something like…Homosexuals can’t get pregnant…and he responds…and says something like…“well we do keep practicing”…so I am not the only one that uses that term…

Talk about being deliberately obtuse! You’re quite deliberately taking a piece of dialogue from a movie out of context. It’s a: making a joke and b: it’s using the word in the context of repeated attempts! Practice = ‘trying to’ in this (humorous) context and I’m absolutely certain that you know it!

It’s Doc Talk…so what it is you believe to have discovered is that is the way we Doc’s talk amongst each other…

Your domestic conversations must be a barrel of laughs if this is how you talk to non-doctors using language in ways that nobody else does…

What was posted goes beyond what is heard, it is written. Do you want to know how many vibrators I have seen stuck in someone’s behind in the emergency room or how to get them out? If you are interested if you look in the Western Journal of Medicine, there is a report of a man with a light bulb up his rectum…and his story…he was drunk and went to the dump and fell on it…uh oh…

We’ve all heard ‘hilarious’ anecdotes about the vicar who was decorating his kitchen whilst not wearing any clothes and who accidentally ‘fell’ onto a potato… Just because there are people stupid enough to attempt to get their jollies from inserting completely inappropriate objects into the wrong orifices of their bodies doesn’t mean a hill of beans when it comes to the arguments made here. I’m absolutely certain that gynaecologists have encountered similar tales of woe - I’ve read some of the accounts myself over the years although I will have the decency not to recount any of them here.

No, they are not skewed.

You clearly don’t have any comprehension of how to understand statistics. If a proctologist who deals only with men encounters many men who have damaged themselves in the process of seeking carnal enjoyment, the inferences he draws from that can only apply to those men who have approached him for medical assistance. He is not in any position to extrapolate that information to the wider population since he does not have a representative sample - the sample is, by definition, representative only of men with problems within their bottoms who have approached this proctologist. For goodness sake, it’s not even like anyone can agree on the number of homosexual men in the population anyway - when people then start suggesting that X percentage are liable to this, that or the other the temptation is to tell them that 87.7% of statistics are made up on the spot… It is about as useful as me opening the fridge door and discovering that the cheddar cheese I bought yesterday has green mould on it therefore all cheddar cheese everywhere must have green mould on it. My statistical sample has a 100% success rate for green mouldy cheese, but it only represents the population of cheese that is in my fridge. You’d quite rightly shoot me down in flames though if I told you that the cheese in YOUR fridge was green and mouldy. You DO practice good food hygiene, don’t you? Trying to isn’t good enough…

 

[livingwordunity]

You’re aware that a lot of gays don’t engage in anal sex right? Not only that, but the rates used to be only about 5%.

How does what you are saying explain this:

“Gay and bisexual men have comprised the largest proportion of the HIV epidemic in the United States since the first cases were reported in the 1980s, and that has not changed. They still comprise the greatest proportion of infections nationally.” - Obama

“CDC reports that HIV diagnoses among young gay men (ages 13-24) of all races and ethnicities rose between 2001 and 2006.” – Obama

“Given the starkness and the enduring nature of the disparate impact on gay and bisexual men, it is important to significantly reprioritize resources and attention on this community. The United States cannot reduce the number of HIV infections nationally without better addressing HIV among gay and bisexual men…Even though gay and bisexual men comprise only two percent of the U.S. population (4 percent of men)” – Obama (bold emphasis given in Obama’s 2010 Whitehouse report)

“1 in 5 Gay/Bi Men Have HIV, Nearly Half Don’t Know” - WebMD

“Gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men (MSM) represent approximately 2% of the US population, yet are the population most severely affected by HIV. In 2010, MSM accounted for 63% of all new HIV infections” – CDC

What else do you think is the reason for these statistics?

Sources:
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
President Obama’s National HIV/AIDS Strategy for the the the United States 2010 White House Report
WebMD
California School of Professional Psychology

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

My dear DR,

I am aware that many people practice anal sex. This includes heterosexual couples and homosexual couples. Ok…

I am aware that homosexual men practicing sex more likely than not have few choices, one being anal sex, when considering that heterosexuals choosing to have intercourse that do engage in anal sex have more than one choice. It goes without saying that in the context of homosexual men practicing sex the only choice as it regards the practice, excluding other than oral sex…since there is no vagina then anal sex is really the only choice, obviously.

If you were to watch the movie Milk…there is a scene where Sean Penn is dialoguing with someone who says something like…Homosexuals can’t get pregnant…and he responds…and says something like…“well we do keep practicing”…so I am not the only one that uses that term…

Words like
engage, practice, indulge, participate, etc and if you look at post 258…a medical report…

It’s Doc Talk…so what it is you believe to have discovered is that is the way we Doc’s talk amongst each other…

What was posted goes beyond what is heard, it is written. Do you want to know how many vibrators I have seen stuck in someone’s behind in the emergency room or how to get them out? If you are interested if you look in the Western Journal of Medicine, there is a report of a man with a light bulb up his rectum…and his story…he was drunk and went to the dump and fell on it…uh oh…

No, they are not skewed. What is it you expect in terms of getting a population of people with problems? This population is not going to get referred to a Psychiatrist or a Pathologist. In the field of medicine it is not considered skewed it is considered representative of the practice of a Proctologist reporting on problems seen and who has the population that represents the problems that are referred to him or her. How can this be skewed…The Proctologist is not on the internet soliciting people with these problems or advertising for them…they just see problems refered to them.

Explain how it is you believe the Kinsey report is skewed and try to parallel that to a referral practice. Proctologists are not doing a report, just reporting what they see. There is a big difference. I wonder about some of the questions that many, in particular those masquerading as Scientists ask and worry more about what they attempt to portray. You cause me to wonder sometimes too. Ask a direct question and you will get a direct answer.

If you narrowly define sex as only forms of intercourse then yes they only have a few options, just like heterosexuals.

Having seen that movie what was meant was “Well we do keep practicing [at becoming pregnant]” which was said as a joke.

They didn’t even spell the word deviant correctly also the “devient practices [sic]” is referring to things “such as regular insertion of other foreign objects (e.g. shower hose)” not gay sex.

A small minority of people do really stupid stuff

How does what you are saying explain this:

“Gay and bisexual men have comprised the largest proportion of the HIV epidemic in the United States since the first cases were reported in the 1980s, and that has not changed. They still comprise the greatest proportion of infections nationally.” - Obama

“CDC reports that HIV diagnoses among young gay men (ages 13-24) of all races and ethnicities rose between 2001 and 2006.” – Obama

“Given the starkness and the enduring nature of the disparate impact on gay and bisexual men, it is important to significantly reprioritize resources and attention on this community. The United States cannot reduce the number of HIV infections nationally without better addressing HIV among gay and bisexual men…Even though gay and bisexual men comprise only two percent of the U.S. population (4 percent of men)” – Obama (bold emphasis given in Obama’s 2010 Whitehouse report)

“1 in 5 Gay/Bi Men Have HIV, Nearly Half Don’t Know” - WebMD

“Gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men (MSM) represent approximately 2% of the US population, yet are the population most severely affected by HIV. In 2010, MSM accounted for 63% of all new HIV infections” – CDC

What else do you think is the reason for these statistics?

Sources:
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
President Obama’s National HIV/AIDS Strategy for the the the United States 2010 White House Report
WebMD
California School of Professional Psychology

That is called a non sequitur, which means I have zero obligation to respond.

While the median number of sexual partners is six at the very edge you have 2% account for 23% of the sex so they will likely get HIV/AIDS and they infect other people, toss in some mobile people with it and you quickly end up with a massive amount having HIV/AIDS, note, this has happened over decades which now that there is such a high rate it becomes likely that with more than just a handful of partners you will engage in someone who has sex with HIV/AIDS.

for the WebMD link

One in five gay/bisexual men in the 21 U.S. cities hardest hit by AIDS have HIV infections – and nearly half don’t know it, a CDC survey finds.

 

[CopticChristian]

Talk about being deliberately obtuse! You’re quite deliberately taking a piece of dialogue from a movie out of context. It’s a: making a joke and b: it’s using the word in the context of repeated attempts! Practice = ‘trying to’ in this (humorous) context and I’m absolutely certain that you know it!

Your domestic conversations must be a barrel of laughs if this is how you talk to non-doctors using language in ways that nobody else does…

We’ve all heard ‘hilarious’ anecdotes about the vicar who was decorating his kitchen whilst not wearing any clothes and who accidentally ‘fell’ onto a potato… Just because there are people stupid enough to attempt to get their jollies from inserting completely inappropriate objects into the wrong orifices of their bodies doesn’t mean a hill of beans when it comes to the arguments made here. I’m absolutely certain that gynaecologists have encountered similar tales of woe - I’ve read some of the accounts myself over the years although I will have the decency not to recount any of them here.

For goodness sake, it’s not even like anyone can agree on the number of homosexual men in the population anyway - when people then start suggesting that X percentage are liable to this, that or the other the temptation is to tell them that 87.7% of statistics are made up on the spot… It is about as useful as me opening the fridge door and discovering that the cheddar cheese I bought yesterday has green mould on it therefore all cheddar cheese everywhere must have green mould on it. My statistical sample has a 100% success rate for green mouldy cheese, but it only represents the population of cheese that is in my fridge. You’d quite rightly shoot me down in flames though if I told you that the cheese in YOUR fridge was green and mouldy. You DO practice good food hygiene, don’t you? Trying to isn’t good enough…

You clearly don’t have any comprehension of how to understand statistics. If a proctologist who deals only with men encounters many men who have damaged themselves in the process of seeking carnal enjoyment, the inferences he draws from that can only apply to those men who have approached him for medical assistance. He is not in any position to extrapolate that information to the wider population since he does not have a representative sample - the sample is, by definition, representative only of men with problems within their bottoms who have approached this proctologist.

:nope:

Wrong as usual.

Where do you read that the Proctologist deals only with men. Is it your belief that Proctologists deal only with men? Men and women have need for a Proctologist.

Notice the study says…

The clinical and pathological findings in a group of 260 homosexual men comprising 10% of a private proctologic practice are reviewed.

This is typically how clinical results of a finding or findings are reported, either in time or with a large number collected in time. This is common medical practice and reporting. Unlike the APA that went on the internet asking for people harmed by Reparative Therapy, producing junk, this is just what the guy was doing.

This represented 10% of the practice and the findings are reported. Clearly, as usual, your lack of medical background causes you to insult what you do not know.

Facts are facts. Proctologists are Proctologists. The device that prevents promiscuity should be used by everyone not just the gay population.

 

[CopticChristian]

If you narrowly define sex as only forms of intercourse then yes they only have a few options, just like heterosexuals.

Having seen that movie what was meant was “Well we do keep practicing [at becoming pregnant]” which was said as a joke.

They didn’t even spell the word deviant correctly also the “devient practices [sic]” is referring to things “such as regular insertion of other foreign objects (e.g. shower hose)” not gay sex.

A small minority of people do really stupid stuff

That is called a non sequitur, which means I have zero obligation to respond.

While the median number of sexual partners is six at the very edge you have 2% account for 23% of the sex so they will likely get HIV/AIDS and they infect other people, toss in some mobile people with it and you quickly end up with a massive amount having HIV/AIDS, note, this has happened over decades which now that there is such a high rate it becomes likely that with more than just a handful of partners you will engage in someone who has sex with HIV/AIDS.

for the WebMD link

DR,

What is your take home message?

Homosexuals acting on their desires…?

What happens as a result of those desires…?

Make a few statements that would be coherent as to what it is you want the take home message to be.

 

[livingwordunity]

You’re aware that a lot of gays don’t engage in anal sex right?

How does what you are saying explain this:

“Gay and bisexual men have comprised the largest proportion of the HIV epidemic in the United States since the first cases were reported in the 1980s, and that has not changed. They still comprise the greatest proportion of infections nationally.” - Obama

“CDC reports that HIV diagnoses among young gay men (ages 13-24) of all races and ethnicities rose between 2001 and 2006.” – Obama

“Given the starkness and the enduring nature of the disparate impact on gay and bisexual men, it is important to significantly reprioritize resources and attention on this community. The United States cannot reduce the number of HIV infections nationally without better addressing HIV among gay and bisexual men…Even though gay and bisexual men comprise only two percent of the U.S. population (4 percent of men)” – Obama (bold emphasis given in Obama’s 2010 Whitehouse report)

“1 in 5 Gay/Bi Men Have HIV, Nearly Half Don’t Know” - WebMD

“Gay, bisexual, and other men who have sex with men (MSM) represent approximately 2% of the US population, yet are the population most severely affected by HIV. In 2010, MSM accounted for 63% of all new HIV infections” – CDC

What else do you think is the reason for these statistics?

Sources:
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
President Obama’s National HIV/AIDS Strategy for the the the United States 2010 White House Report
WebMD
California School of Professional Psychology

That is called a non sequitur, which means I have zero obligation to respond.

I call it a “cop-out”. There must be a reason why there is and has always been such a high proportion of “gay” and bisexual men getting AIDS compared to heterosexuals, if it’s not anal sex what is it? What is it about “gay” and bisexual men that is different than heterosexuals and different than lesbians? hmmm…

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

I call it a “cop-out”. There must be a reason why there is such a high proportion of “gay” and bisexual men getting AIDS compared to heterosexuals, if it’s not anal sex what is it? What is it about “gay” and bisexual men that is different than heterosexuals and different than lesbians? hmmm…

I didn’t say no gay people engaged in it, I said many don’t.

 

[Regular_Atheist]

I call it a “cop-out”. There must be a reason why there is such a high proportion of “gay” and bisexual men getting AIDS compared to heterosexuals, if it’s not anal sex what is it? What is it about “gay” and bisexual men that is different than heterosexuals and different than lesbians? hmmm…

In fairness, even if that is a reason to make it illegal, I don’t think your stance on sodomy laws would actually stop sodomy or the spread of HIV/AIDS. You seem to just want it to be publicly frowned upon. I mean, if the only way to get caught committing sodomy offences is to admit to it, surely people just wouldn’t admit to it? If anything, this could just further the spread of HIV/AIDS amongst heterosexual women, such as if the homosexual men are marrying women to avoid suspicion.

 

[livingwordunity]

I didn’t say no gay people engaged in it, I said many don’t.

Apparently, not enough or there wouldn’t such a great difference in AIDS cases between “gay” and bisexual men and the rest of the population.

 

[sw85]

Anti-sodomy laws were the norm for the vast majority of human civilizations for the vast majority of human history, so we should perhaps not be too quick to deride them as garbage.

 

[Fairwinds]

Anti-sodomy laws were the norm for the vast majority of human civilizations for the vast majority of human history, so we should perhaps not be too quick to deride them as garbage.

for much of human history, there was no effective rein on how the government could extract evidence to convict, by denunciation, torture, threats, etc. now we, at least in the USofA, don’t let the government prosecute ordinary crimes that way.

so how do you propose the government prosecute consensual sodomy where neither participant will testify? one poster here is a fan of police raids, breaking down bedroom doors and peeping toms. are you cool with that?

this is not a rhetorical question. and law that exists and is unenforceable is this fundamental way just incites contempt for the legal system as a whole.

F/

 

[livingwordunity]

Anti-sodomy laws were the norm for the vast majority of human civilizations for the vast majority of human history, so we should perhaps not be too quick to deride them as garbage.

If we take the statistics seriously, we can see that this is not only a moral issue but also a public health issue. And as I’ve suggested, the penalty can be applied to everyone “gay” or “straight” so that it can be non-discriminating. And the penalty for sodomy can be a fine such as $1,000 which can go to a charity for children. I think that would be a good compromise.

“Gay and bisexual men have comprised the largest proportion of the HIV epidemic in the United States since the first cases were reported in the 1980s, and that has not changed. They still comprise the greatest proportion of infections nationally.” - Obama

Sources:
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
President Obama’s National HIV/AIDS Strategy for the the the United States 2010 White House Report
WebMD
California School of Professional Psychology

 

[sw85]

for much of human history, there was no effective rein on how the government could extract evidence to convict, by denunciation, torture, threats, etc. now we, at least in the USofA, don’t let the government prosecute ordinary crimes that way.

so how do you propose the government prosecute consensual sodomy where neither participant will testify? one poster here is a fan of police raids, breaking down bedroom doors and peeping toms. are you cool with that?

this is not a rhetorical question. and law that exists and is unenforceable is this fundamental way just incites contempt for the legal system as a whole.

F/

I see them operating much the same way that morality clauses for Catholic school teachers do. If you become a Catholic school teacher you are, in many dioceses, expected to uphold some basic standards of morality, avoiding fornication, adultery, divorce, etc. This is because you have the immediate care of younger souls and it’s expected that you won’t scandalize them by your life.

This doesn’t mean Vatican ninjas dispatched from the chancery will bust down your doors in the middle of the night and ransack your house looking for birth control pills. The contracts are typically enforced after the fact, i.e., when scandal has already erupted, such as when an unmarried teacher suddenly becomes pregnant or starts shacking up with her boyfriend, etc. They exist, in other words, both to provide a deterrent against scandalous behavior and to minimize scandalize when it erupts.

In a similar way, ideally, anti-sodomy laws would be enforced only against people who behave in an indiscrete and scandalous fashion. In other words, if you wanted to avoid running afoul of anti-sodomy laws and genuinely couldn’t bring yourself to repent of sodomy, the solution would be not to be caught in the act of sodomy, i.e., to take precautions so that you are not discovered. This is literally just as good, from a “common good” perspective, as sodomy not existing at all, since in either case the risk of scandal is 0.

The demand that a law be rigorously enforced to the max or else be discarded is not and has never been consistent with Catholic moral teaching re: the common good and the duty of the state. It is the state’s responsibility to enact justice when an evil is done, where justice can be enacted in a way that does not conflict with the common good and is proportionate to the evil and so on, not to anticipate and prevent every possible evil regardless of the costs.