Should I baptize a dying child against the parents' wishes?

[atheistgirl]

I would do it. Period.

If I found out someone baptized a child of mine, against my wishs as their mom, and possibly with them too ill or young to know what was going on, I would be incandescent with rage. I really would.

 

[Cristiano]

Not a big deal, I guess that in the rush to post I did not express my thoughts clearly enough.

 

[Cristiano]

If I found out someone baptized a child of mine, against my wishs as their mom, and possibly with them too ill or young to know what was going on, I would be incandescent with rage. I really would.

Why would you? If I were an atheist I would simply look at it as if someone just spilled some water on the baby before it died. I am not mocking you, I just do not understand why an atheist would be so outraged by something so inconsequential to his/her life. If I were an atheist I would consider the person just a poor superstitious idiot and ignore the whole thing. Would you please elaborate, I just do not get the reason for such a rage.

 

[Samson01]

If I found out someone baptized a child of mine, against my wishs as their mom, and possibly with them too ill or young to know what was going on, I would be incandescent with rage. I really would.

Seems to be an issue of rejection rather then disbelief.

 

[RHannosh619]

Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”

Just like the CC says… Don’t worry about.

For those who mentioned we cannot for sure say that God will save these infants, you are correct, we cannot be 100% Certain. But we are 100% Certain in the love and mercy of our wonderful, glorious God, so I say, MOST LIKELY(99.9999%), they are saved.

God Bless.

 

[rayne89]

If I found out someone baptized a child of mine, against my wishs as their mom, and possibly with them too ill or young to know what was going on, I would be incandescent with rage. I really would.

I understand a person of a different faith belief system being outraged but I do not understand an atheist being outrage. You believe in nothing, so you believe that baptism does nothing. Why would something that does nothing in your eye’s upset you in any way? That doesn’t follow any logic that I can think of. Water would not physically harm the child in any way. You do not believe in an after life so what is the context for the rage?

 

[Hopemercy]

Absolutely not!!!..if I had found out someone had baptized my child against my wishes, I would make sure they didn’t do it again to anyone elses child. It does not speak well for the trust the parents have placed in you to care for their child…it does not speak to Truth.

Would you deny you had baptized the child if faced with prosecution and loss of your practice?

My son only lived less than 30 minutes after he was born…to know the physician I had trusted with the care of my family had betrayed that trust would have been one more burden to bear in a tragic situation I already had found myself having to deal with. Rational or not…it would have been a blow I and my wife need not have had to bear…to know our faith had been violated. To know that YOU had not respected our faith traditions…even though as a Friend I do not believe baptism does anything other than get the head wet…I would have still felt betrayal…it is not YOUR decision.

Some Catholics sure get up in arms over Mormons baptizing for the dead on their behalf without their permission…but when it comes to them doing an “unauthorized” baptism…

I guess I am just too close to the scenario to give a nod that it’s ok…IT IS NOT SOMETHING YOU SHOULD TAKE UPON YOUR SELF TO DO…I certainly would not consider you as my physician knowing such a deeply personal violation had taken place.

To realize you would have placed your need to assage your conscience by imposing your beliefs upon my grieving wife and myself at the expense of our beliefs…would be hurtful at the very least.

It is simply an act of love for the baby. Can you not see it as simply that?

Just the sheer and utter love for that tiny one.

Never been in that situation, BUT I gave a strong Blessing to the wee boy of atheists/ while I was stopping him running under daddy’s tractor.

They never knew, by the way/ And nor would the parents of any baby … An act of utter love. Outside all human thoughts. Simply that and love is never a violation.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Fine it can also be your decision to put yourself above God and to separate yourself from Him forever. We have free will and that is why we can choose. You make your choices other people make theirs. Some will try to do their best to align their with with God’s will.

And choosing not to baptize in the case that the OP has stated in no way separates oneself from God.

 

[FAB]

And choosing not to baptize in the case that the OP has stated in no way separates oneself from God.

From reading the post there seems to a misunderstanding of Church teaching and baptism. Through baptism one becomes part of the body of Christ.
Because of abortion, there had to be a realaztion that an inocent soul is just that and a unbaptised infant, incapable of sin is in the hands of our merciful God.

It is the reason that we now longer speak of the un baptized infant being in limbo.
As far as origianl sin, we all suffer the effects, in our own actions, and through the actions of others.

The bottom line is that unless the parents agree, even a child in danger of dying, should not be baptized.

 

[Publisher]

It is simply an act of love for the baby. Can you not see it as simply that?

Just the sheer and utter love for that tiny one.

Never been in that situation, BUT I gave a strong Blessing to the wee boy of atheists/ while I was stopping him running under daddy’s tractor.

They never knew, by the way/ And nor would the parents of any baby … An act of utter love. Outside all human thoughts. Simply that and love is never a violation.

The best act of love for the child would be to allow the parents, people of faith themselves, decide what is best for their child. Or is the CC now advocating coercion and deceit on the part of Catholic physicians who treat people of other faith traditions? THAT is what I am hearing you advocate…a total disregard for my and my wife’s faith tradition to bring our child up in the faith we believe God has called us to.

I understand the physician would have been trying to ‘assist’ the child…BUT he was my child whom God had given into my care and while I understand the concern the physician may have…the child’s care was mine and my wife’s…to raise in the faith we had embraced…it was not the physicians choice…it would have been an act of violation of the trust we put in him to care for our family…do YOU not see THAT??? It would have been an act of deceit on the part of the physician…I thought Catholic morals and beliefs held that the “means does not justify the end”?

Is Catholic faith now to be practiced in secret? A Catholic physician accepting the trust of a parent to care for their child…only to have the Catholic “sneak around behind one’s back” and violate that trust…AND THEN KEEP IT SECRET…is deceipt…plain and simple…it is a lie lived out and then claimed it was for the “good of the child”…it wouldn’t be for the good of the child…it would be for the conscience easing of the physician who’s faith in God could not commend the child to the Hands of a loving and merciful God…the God who the parents sought to serve with all their hearts and minds…parents that had the best intentions for their child…whom God had given into their care…this whole scenario has hit very close to home with me…and believe me…it is a true eye opener!!!

That any parent…ANY PARENT needs to bear a burden of violation to their fiath from a trusted physician at a time when their faith was all they could hold on to is NOT and act of love…DO YOU NOT SEE THAT?

 

[Bluegoat]

If this kind of thing happens what you get is people coming to CAF in 30 years and asking if their marriage in the Church they were raised in is valid if they were secretly baptized by over-zealous Catholics at birth.

 

[Flyingg]

An all-knowing and all-loving God isn’t going to send an infant to hell because his/her parents failed to get it baptized before it died. I don’t “hope” God has mercy on these children; I know He does.

Exactly, the child has no choice, I fail to see that a God would prefer a baptized child over a non baptized one, isn’t this discrimination? According to the bible Jesus said, if you don’t return as a child you won’t enter heaven, he said a child and not a baptized child. Don’t do it if you might risk your job and the parents will, if you believe God has mercy, leave that to him.

 

[odile53]

Since you’re in residency, why don’t you check with your hospital’s chaplaincy department, the hospital policy manual, and your chief resident before proceeding? I’m no theologian, but I’m not sure that, given your essentially student status, in this role you possess independence as a moral agent.

As a physician, you’re going to have to take actions that may be in conflict with your faith, but in respect of the beliefs of others. What do you do, for example, with the sixteen year old trauma victim with a mean arterial pressure of 36 and a hemoglobin of 6.8 who happens to be a Jehovah’s Witness, as do his parents? Most patients, you would transfuse and prep for surgery. What do you do here? What do you do with the patient with remotely metastatic cancer who is ventilator dependent, in multiple system failure, and obviously actively dying when they develop yet another “treatable” complication, especially if they have made their wishes clear that they do not want to be “on machines?”

Questions like these are exactly why a close friend of mine, who for years was a general surgeon, as well as a clinical professor, opted to re-train in a specialty where he would not be likely to encounter such life and death issues. He could no longer resolve some of the medical ethical dilemmas in a way that was satisfactory to his own conscience. That was almost literally killing him.

I’m sorry this sounds harsh, but God has given you the talent and the knowledge to be a physician, and that position is a sacred trust. I’d really suggest sorting out your own beliefs vis a vis your responsibility to patients and resolving this with your conscience, perhaps with a priest who has some experience in hospital chaplaincy as well as spiritual direction. And I wish you a successful residency, and a spiritually and personally satisfying practice.

 

[anp1215]

Thank you…when I saw the title of the thread I “knew”…I just “knew” I should stay away from it…but I couldn’t “help myself”…and I was right after all…I should have stayed away from it…hopefully a “real face” was placed upon this thread…hopefully…

Thank you again for your kind words.

You are very welcome.

 

[CaseyDeAnn]

Do not make God into what you would like him to be, that it is idolatry of a false god. We only know what the church teaches us and the Church teaches us that an infant that is baptized just before his death will go the heaven. We are allowed to hope and we should do so; however, making judgments about possibilities that we do not like is wrong because we do not know the details of God’s plan.

I’m not making God into what I “want him to be.” I’m proclaiming that God is who He said He is: Love.

 

[Daizies]

I don’t like posting on controversial topics since I usually get blasted, but here it goes anyways.
Now, I don’t have children, but I do understand Publisher’s point. A few years ago a close friend of mine had a child that suffered brain damage during the birthing process. Long story short, we sat with him for days as he died. It was awful. Now my friend is a neo-pagan (for lack of a better term). If someone had baptized her son, she would have been livid, because she doesn’t believe in God in the same sense we do. I could imagine that it would just compound the devastation and betrayal that she already felt.
If you’ve never sat with someone as their child is dying, or have lost a child yourself, to frame it in terms of love - well, you just don’t understand. Love is holding the mom as she cries. Love is going with her to get the urn for her firstborn child. Love is letting her talk about him incessantly for hours, just listening. Love is not forcing beliefs on a person in their hour of grief and despair. It’s about showing love, being love for that person - and trust that God will look after the child.

 

[Hopemercy]

The best act of love for the child would be to allow the parents, people of faith themselves, decide what is best for their child. Or is the CC now advocating coercion and deceit on the part of Catholic physicians who treat people of other faith traditions? THAT is what I am hearing you advocate…a total disregard for my and my wife’s faith tradition to bring our child up in the faith we believe God has called us to.

I understand the physician would have been trying to ‘assist’ the child…BUT he was my child whom God had given into my care and while I understand the concern the physician may have…the child’s care was mine and my wife’s…to raise in the faith we had embraced…it was not the physicians choice…it would have been an act of violation of the trust we put in him to care for our family…do YOU not see THAT??? It would have been an act of deceit on the part of the physician…I thought Catholic morals and beliefs held that the “means does not justify the end”?

Is Catholic faith now to be practiced in secret? A Catholic physician accepting the trust of a parent to care for their child…only to have the Catholic “sneak around behind one’s back” and violate that trust…AND THEN KEEP IT SECRET…is deceipt…plain and simple…it is a lie lived out and then claimed it was for the “good of the child”…it wouldn’t be for the good of the child…it would be for the conscience easing of the physician who’s faith in God could not commend the child to the Hands of a loving and merciful God…the God who the parents sought to serve with all their hearts and minds…parents that had the best intentions for their child…whom God had given into their care…this whole scenario has hit very close to home with me…and believe me…it is a true eye opener!!!

That any parent…ANY PARENT needs to bear a burden of violation to their fiath from a trusted physician at a time when their faith was all they could hold on to is NOT and act of love…DO YOU NOT SEE THAT?

Please do not shout? Thank you…

I “see” it but I see also your deep woundedness and anger. And t hat concerns me deeply for your health.

You are seeing this from a very worldly viewpoint and from anger also and I wonder where that anger is coming from? Itis that you need to heal.

All children belong to God. All are His.

If I baptise a child dying or not that is for me an act of utter love. Between me and the child and God.
Nor is it in any way re conscience!

Simply love.

When I blessed that child, I knew he was in terrible danger and being badly neglected by his parents. The child needed spiritual suppprt; his need cried out for that. And a blessing gave that. Baptism would have been far stronger.

I was already trying to get help for him; guess what? people spoke as you are doing. Not your child etc… finallyhe and his brother were taken into care, the baby at the point of death.

I would baptise and i would say nothing. As someone who loves children dearly, Between child and God and myself.

And remember that baptism cuts across denominations.

We do not own our children. That is probabky the hardest thing a parent has to learn.

The only “violation” here could be said to be on your part.

Blessings and peace

 

[Hopemercy]

I don’t like posting on controversial topics since I usually get blasted, but here it goes anyways.
Now, I don’t have children, but I do understand Publisher’s point. A few years ago a close friend of mine had a child that suffered brain damage during the birthing process. Long story short, we sat with him for days as he died. It was awful. Now my friend is a neo-pagan (for lack of a better term). If someone had baptized her son, she would have been livid, because she doesn’t believe in God in the same sense we do. I could imagine that it would just compound the devastation and betrayal that she already felt.
If you’ve never sat with someone as their child is dying, or have lost a child yourself, to frame it in terms of love - well, you just don’t understand. Love is holding the mom as she cries. Love is going with her to get the urn for her firstborn child. Love is letting her talk about him incessantly for hours, just listening. Love is not forcing beliefs on a person in their hour of grief and despair. It’s about showing love, being love for that person - and trust that God will look after the child.

Yes love is of course all those things.

of course itis and no one here would say else and that is a wonderful thing you did.

But it is only a part of this.

No oneis speaking here of forcing beliefs on anyone; we are not speaking of some great religious event in Church!

She was in darkness; Jesus is Light and we bring that Light to others.

Can you not see how much greater her healing would be with that Light?

An act of utter love for the dying child.

 

[Hopemercy]

If this kind of thing happens what you get is people coming to CAF in 30 years and asking if their marriage in the Church they were raised in is valid if they were secretly baptized by over-zealous Catholics at birth.

So? Not sure what point you are making?

Baptism to my undertsanding goes across denominational barriers. Trinitarian baptism that is.

 

[masuwerte]

If this kind of thing happens what you get is people coming to CAF in 30 years and asking if their marriage in the Church they were raised in is valid if they were secretly baptized by over-zealous Catholics at birth.

Or non-Catholic children taken from their parents to be raised Catholic: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgardo_Mortara