Should I baptize a dying child against the parents' wishes?

[Publisher]

I don’t like posting on controversial topics since I usually get blasted, but here it goes anyways.
Now, I don’t have children, but I do understand Publisher’s point. A few years ago a close friend of mine had a child that suffered brain damage during the birthing process. Long story short, we sat with him for days as he died. It was awful. Now my friend is a neo-pagan (for lack of a better term). If someone had baptized her son, she would have been livid, because she doesn’t believe in God in the same sense we do. I could imagine that it would just compound the devastation and betrayal that she already felt.
If you’ve never sat with someone as their child is dying, or have lost a child yourself, to frame it in terms of love - well, you just don’t understand. Love is holding the mom as she cries. Love is going with her to get the urn for her firstborn child. Love is letting her talk about him incessantly for hours, just listening. Love is not forcing beliefs on a person in their hour of grief and despair. It’s about showing love, being love for that person - and trust that God will look after the child.

I sat last night after I got home, thinking about the events almsot three decades ago and wondered why this had upset me after so many years…I agree with your points…I would like to add, for me to have the “choice” of how I would raise my child in the faith he had been born into ripped from me in those last few minutes of his life would have been devestating on a level way deep down inside.

I only had my son in this world for a few short minutes…we weren’t even given the “comfort” of holding him while he lived…to consider that someone would have decided for our child that we weren’t “Christian enough” to do what is best for him…we weren’t the “right kind” of Christians…we didn have his best interests at heart and because we were the “wrong” Christians anyways, that someone had to step in and take over for us since we had “no clue” to what he really needed religiouosly would have been a wound difficult to bear at a time when all we had was our faith in God that “He does all things well”…to place our child in the merciful loving Hands of God and commend our child to His loving care was all we could do…and to have “someone” tell us…"That’s not good enough…that’s not loving enough…You don’t care enough for your child to have him baptized while there was still time…“We felt the few seconds it took baptizing your child was worth denying him the few seconds of care to save him.”

If any of you haven’t lost a child…you have no idea the loss…the emptyness you feel when you return back to your home and have to pack up the crib and drawer full of baby clothes and plan his memorial…you thought that when you returned home it would be one of joy and celebration…instead it’s one of despair…pain…loss…and the only comfort was that our child was now in the Presence…and as people of faith who had anticipated the joy of raising a child in the faith…to take our child before the Meeting and have him recorded as a “birthright member” in the Society of Friends…now while we could have him recorded as a “birthright” member…we also had to record him as “deceased”…but to know that small comfort too WAS RIPPPED from us by someone of another faith tradition…for by baptizing our child the well intentioned Catholic had made the decision to make our child a member of his faith tradition…we wouldn’t have believed he was of course…but the thought that the Catholic would have smiled in their smugness that THEY SAVED our child because we were “ignorant” Quakers…would have been hurtful…

I’m surprised that few Catholics see that…

 

[Publisher]

Please do not shout? Thank you…

1)I “see” it but I see also your deep woundedness and anger. And t hat concerns me deeply for your health.

2)You are seeing this from a very worldly viewpoint and from anger also and I wonder where that anger is coming from? Itis that you need to heal.

All children belong to God. All are His.

If I baptise a child dying or not that is for me an act of utter love. Between me and the child and God.
Nor is it in any way re conscience!

Simply love.

When I blessed that child, I knew he was in terrible danger and being badly neglected by his parents. The child needed spiritual suppprt; his need cried out for that. And a blessing gave that. Baptism would have been far stronger.

I was already trying to get help for him; guess what? people spoke as you are doing. Not your child etc… finallyhe and his brother were taken into care, the baby at the point of death.

3) I would baptise and i would say nothing. As** someone who loves children dearly**, Between child and God and myself.

4)And remember that baptism cuts across denominations.

We do not own our children. That is probabky the hardest thing a parent has to learn.

**5)The only “violation” here could be said to be on your part. **
Blessings and peace

1. You obviously “see” not very much.
2. “Worldly viewpoint”…you know little of Friends I see.
3. You would practice your faith in “secret”…practicing in a “deceitful manner”

As though his mother and I didn’t love him and want the best for him…that’s your choice?

4)We do not practice water baptism…how does it cut “across” denominations?

5)And now further insult.

???..“blessings & peace” Such hollow words after such a post…you’ve never lost a child…have you?

 

[Publisher]

I don’t like posting on controversial topics since I usually get blasted, but here it goes anyways.
Now, I don’t have children, but I do understand Publisher’s point. A few years ago a close friend of mine had a child that suffered brain damage during the birthing process. Long story short, we sat with him for days as he died. It was awful. Now my friend is a neo-pagan (for lack of a better term). If someone had baptized her son, she would have been livid, because she doesn’t believe in God in the same sense we do. I could imagine that it would just compound the devastation and betrayal that she already felt.
If you’ve never sat with someone as their child is dying, or have lost a child yourself, to frame it in terms of love - well, you just don’t understand. Love is holding the mom as she cries. Love is going with her to get the urn for her firstborn child. Love is letting her talk about him incessantly for hours, just listening. Love is not forcing beliefs on a person in their hour of grief and despair. It’s about showing love, being love for that person - and trust that God will look after the child.

Friend Daizies, your friend was blessed to have you there with her at a time when there was no color in her world…no comfort…no sleep…no laughter…you gave her just what she needed…a loving arm and gentle hugs and a slow steady light in her darkness.

 

[Publisher]

I apologize for any unkind words from my posts to any of you…this subject and some of the replies opened up feelings I hadn’t experienced in years…I guess one never really get’s over loosing a child…or spouse no matter how many years pass.

The implications of some Catholic beliefs just really don’t rest well…that other faith traditions need to “suffer” at your hands…and yet any casual reading of some of the threads on this site display how deeply many of you who are Catholic DEMAND your faith be honored and respected…honor and respect is a two way street…and I do realize the less than “sensitive” views stated by some Catholics in this thread are not indicative of all Catholics…just as my outbursts of anger are not indicative of all Friends.

I’m going to bow out of this thread…it’s not just a “what if” or hypothetical subject for me…as a parent who lost a child…it’s very REAL…and frightening to realize some of you simply cannot…will not… respect other faith traditions no matter how deeply some of us plead with you to understand what your actions and words do to others…effect others…harm others.

Peace to you…I’ll move to a different section now and leave you to your “liturgies and sacraments”

 

[zab]

I apologize for any unkind words from my posts to any of you…this subject and some of the replies opened up feelings I hadn’t experienced in years…I guess one never really get’s over loosing a child…or spouse no matter how many years pass.

The implications of some Catholic beliefs just really don’t rest well…that other faith traditions need to “suffer” at your hands…and yet any casual reading of some of the threads on this site display how deeply many of you who are Catholic DEMAND your faith be honored and respected…honor and respect is a two way street**…and I do realize the less than “sensitive” views stated by some Catholics in this thread are not indicative of all Catholics…**just as my outbursts of anger are not indicative of all Friends.

I’m going to bow out of this thread…it’s not just a “what if” or hypothetical subject for me…as a parent who lost a child…it’s very REAL…and frightening to realize some of you simply cannot…will not… respect other faith traditions no matter how deeply some of us plead with you to understand what your actions and words do to others…effect others…harm others.

Peace to you…I’ll move to a different section now and leave you to your “liturgies and sacraments”

First of all, I want to add my sympathy to** Publisher** for the loss of your infant so many years ago, as well as the recent loss of a relative that has brought back such strong feelings of grief. I am glad to hear that God has visited you and healed you of the anger you once had toward Him even though the pain of loss still resurfaces now and then.
Second, I just want to point out the Church’s official position on this matter as a Deacon ((name removed by moderator)) pointed out in Post #25
“***the Church’s official position on canon 868(2): the New Commentary on the Code of Canon Law makes it clear that the canon “in no way advocates that a child, even in danger of death, be baptized against the express will of the parents.” ***

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[puzzleannie]

According to the Code of Canon Law, “An infant of Catholic parents or even of non-Catholic parents can be baptized licitly in danger of death even against the will of the parents” (CIC 868 §2).

.

it is permissible, but not in any sense required under canon law for someone in your circumstances to baptize. don’t see how the paragraph can be interpreted any other way

 

[zab]

it is permissible, but not in any sense required under canon law for someone in your circumstances to baptize. don’t see how the paragraph can be interpreted any other way

catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/keyword/baptism
*"…the New Commentary on the Code of Canon Law makes it clear that the canon “in no way advocates that a child, even in danger of death, be baptized against the express will of the parents. It simply presents a juridical clarification of the liceity of a baptism administered under those conditions” (1057)." *

 

[atheistgirl]

I understand a person of a different faith belief system being outraged but I do not understand an atheist being outrage. You believe in nothing, so you believe that baptism does nothing. Why would something that does nothing in your eye’s upset you in any way? That doesn’t follow any logic that I can think of. Water would not physically harm the child in any way. You do not believe in an after life so what is the context for the rage?

Im pretty sure you wouldnt like it if someone secretly consecrated your child to allah for example. While Im sure you dont believe in allah, or zeus, you might well see it as a violation of your child in some way, a flagrant disregard and disrespect for you as the mother, and a grotesque act of arrogance. The supreme arrogance of presuming you can take my child, against her and my will, and baptize her to your god - a god neither she not I believe in.
That’s only the start of how I would view such an appalling act.
Thats why I would be outraged.

 

[Hopemercy]

I sat last night after I got home, thinking about the events almsot three decades ago and wondered why this had upset me after so many years…I agree with your points…I would like to add, for me to have the “choice” of how I would raise my child in the faith he had been born into ripped from me in those last few minutes of his life would have been devestating on a level way deep down inside.

I only had my son in this world for a few short minutes…we weren’t even given the “comfort” of holding him while he lived…to consider that someone would have decided for our child that we weren’t “Christian enough” to do what is best for him…we weren’t the “right kind” of Christians…we didn have his best interests at heart and because we were the “wrong” Christians anyways, that someone had to step in and take over for us since we had “no clue” to what he really needed religiouosly would have been a wound difficult to bear at a time when all we had was our faith in God that “He does all things well”…to place our child in the merciful loving Hands of God and commend our child to His loving care was all we could do…and to have “someone” tell us…"That’s not good enough…that’s not loving enough…You don’t care enough for your child to have him baptized while there was still time…“We felt the few seconds it took baptizing your child was worth denying him the few seconds of care to save him.”

If any of you haven’t lost a child…you have no idea the loss…the emptyness you feel when you return back to your home and have to pack up the crib and drawer full of baby clothes and plan his memorial…you thought that when you returned home it would be one of joy and celebration…instead it’s one of despair…pain…loss…and the only comfort was that our child was now in the Presence…and as people of faith who had anticipated the joy of raising a child in the faith…to take our child before the Meeting and have him recorded as a “birthright member” in the Society of Friends…now while we could have him recorded as a “birthright” member…we also had to record him as “deceased”…but to know that small comfort too WAS RIPPPED from us by someone of another faith tradition…for by baptizing our child the well intentioned Catholic had made the decision to make our child a member of his faith tradition…we wouldn’t have believed he was of course…but the thought that the Catholic would have smiled in their smugness that THEY SAVED our child because we were “ignorant” Quakers…would have been hurtful…

I’m surprised that few Catholics see that…

Again, it seems that yiu have had some very bad and negative experiecnes and have read far too much into them and are being very judgemental of others’; motives.

And again, please don’t shout; although your use of capitals is so revealing. And I ache for your woundedness.

But that last sentence is your ideas and not ours.

None of this has ever occurred in my mind or heart. I cannot theologise or be logical or legalistic about this. I simply know in the heart of my soul where Jesus is that my hands would and will and do reach out to that baby/ And I know also that that would bring peace to you, IF you allowed it to.

Because you are seeing this in human terms and shutting God out. His Power, His utter and total love which is all that there would be in me as I baptised.
And I could no more hold back from that than stop the sun from rising.

And I think you for posting because it has brought that home to me and given me great peace.

It makes me sad for thee; it aches my heart… but also I am sure that this is chosen reaction by thee and that you have fostered it over the decades and not allowed healing to happen towards anyone.

For whoever wounded you so much that you react like this, lease allow me to formally apologise for that. To embrace you in His love, my brother.

Plese, allow God into your heart? To cleanse and heal. To forgive and love.

 

[anp1215]

I don’t like posting on controversial topics since I usually get blasted, but here it goes anyways.
Now, I don’t have children, but I do understand Publisher’s point. A few years ago a close friend of mine had a child that suffered brain damage during the birthing process. Long story short, we sat with him for days as he died. It was awful. Now my friend is a neo-pagan (for lack of a better term). If someone had baptized her son, she would have been livid, because she doesn’t believe in God in the same sense we do. I could imagine that it would just compound the devastation and betrayal that she already felt.
If you’ve never sat with someone as their child is dying, or have lost a child yourself, to frame it in terms of love - well, you just don’t understand. Love is holding the mom as she cries. Love is going with her to get the urn for her firstborn child. Love is letting her talk about him incessantly for hours, just listening. Love is not forcing beliefs on a person in their hour of grief and despair. It’s about showing love, being love for that person - and trust that God will look after the child.

Excellent post.

 

[Bluegoat]

Again, it seems that yiu have had some very bad and negative experiecnes and have read far too much into them and are being very judgemental of others’; motives.

And again, please don’t shout; although your use of capitals is so revealing. And I ache for your woundedness.

But that last sentence is your ideas and not ours.

None of this has ever occurred in my mind or heart. I cannot theologise or be logical or legalistic about this. I simply know in the heart of my soul where Jesus is that my hands would and will and do reach out to that baby/ And I know also that that would bring peace to you, IF you allowed it to.

Because you are seeing this in human terms and shutting God out. His Power, His utter and total love which is all that there would be in me as I baptised.
And I could no more hold back from that than stop the sun from rising.

And I think you for posting because it has brought that home to me and given me great peace.

It makes me sad for thee; it aches my heart… but also I am sure that this is chosen reaction by thee and that you have fostered it over the decades and not allowed healing to happen towards anyone.

For whoever wounded you so much that you react like this, lease allow me to formally apologise for that. To embrace you in His love, my brother.

Plese, allow God into your heart? To cleanse and heal. To forgive and love.

This is way out of line. And your Church knows it - why don’t you?

 

[zab]

Again, it seems that yiu have had some very bad and negative experiecnes and have read far too much into them and are being very judgemental of others’; motives.

And again, please don’t shout; although your use of capitals is so revealing. And I ache for your woundedness.

But that last sentence is your ideas and not ours.

None of this has ever occurred in my mind or heart. I cannot theologise or be logical or legalistic about this. I simply know in the heart of my soul where Jesus is that my hands would and will and do reach out to that baby/ And I know also that that would bring peace to you, IF you allowed it to.

Because you are seeing this in human terms and shutting God out. His Power, His utter and total love which is all that there would be in me as I baptised.
And I could no more hold back from that than stop the sun from rising.

And I think you for posting because it has brought that home to me and given me great peace.

It makes me sad for thee; it aches my heart… but also I am sure that this is chosen reaction by thee and that you have fostered it over the decades and not allowed healing to happen towards anyone.

For whoever wounded you so much that you react like this, lease allow me to formally apologise for that. To embrace you in His love, my brother.

Plese, allow God into your heart? To cleanse and heal. To forgive and love.

Where is the hope, the trust in our merciful God, if you would take it upon yourself to baptize a dying infant against the expressed wishes of the parents?

 

[anp1215]

Where is the hope, the trust in our merciful God, if you would take it upon yourself to baptize a dying infant against the expressed wishes of the parents?

 

[lisahiku]

original sin exists on ALL human beings…infants or not. that is a FACT.

 

[CompSciGuy]

For those who have said they would be extremely offended at their child being baptized, I wondered about something else.

If I happened to be standing in the ICU at the time, and I saw as the ECG flatline, my most likely immediate reaction would be to make the sign of the cross and say “Eternal rest grant unto him/her O Lord, and let your perpetual light shine upon him/her.”

Would this offend you? I’d be making an explicitly Christian prayer, without anyone’s permission and the prayer is intended for the child, for its salvation. Is this more or less offensive than baptism?

 

[zab]

original sin exists on ALL human beings…infants or not. that is a FACT.

We must trust that God’s mercy extends to such little ones as these.

 

[Davina100]

I would not baptize against the parents wishes. My understanding of this topic has increased thanks to the Deacon comments and others.

Peace.

I agree. After reading the deacons responses and people of other faiths and beliefs I don’t think it really would be the Christian thing to do. We place our faith in a merciful and loving God and pray for the baby and their family.

 

[JackQ]

According to the Code of Canon Law, “An infant of Catholic parents or even of non-Catholic parents can be baptized licitly in danger of death even against the will of the parents” (CIC 868 §2).

I am a resident physician in a children’s hospital where I will be likely to witness children in danger of death right in front of me. Am I obligated to baptize any child that I see who is dying, regardless of the parents’ wishes? Am I to understand the canon as saying that it would be licit, but not obligatory, to do so? And if it is licit, then should I? I imagine the medical-legal repercussions could be severe, or I could lose my job - what is a Catholic to do in this situation? Would it be permissible to baptize the child in secret without asking the parents? Thank you for all of your thoughts.

I would.

 

[zab]

I would.

Why would you do something that the Church does not advocate?

 

[atheistgirl]

For those who have said they would be extremely offended at their child being baptized, I wondered about something else.

If I happened to be standing in the ICU at the time, and I saw as the ECG flatline, my most likely immediate reaction would be to make the sign of the cross and say “Eternal rest grant unto him/her O Lord, and let your perpetual light shine upon him/her.”

Would this offend you? I’d be making an explicitly Christian prayer, without anyone’s permission and the prayer is intended for the child, for its salvation. Is this more or less offensive than baptism?

In the one case, youre simply saying a mental prayer for that person. That would between you and your god.
In the other, you are deliberatrely and calculatingly bringing that person by the performance of a rite, into your faith and church, expressly against the wishs of the parent/s.
There is a world of a difference in my view.

Sarah x